Archived Massiveraid Proposal

[Mafrorific]

As mentioned in my thread on having a reason to raid, I'm losing people I've invited to MassiveCraft because they see no reason to raid. This thread is my proposal for a plugin, to which I am giving the working name MassiveRaid.

This proposal is meant to be a straw man, which can be thorough beaten, abused, or set fire to without me being offended in the slightest. I hope you'll give feedback, correct me where I might have strayed, and show your support of the overall concept (if indeed you do support it) by sharing it with like-minded people and by giving this post a Like.

Goal

Create a gameplay experience that:
1. Gives players a reason to raid, an in-game benefit they can receive from doing so to help offset the obvious risks.
2. Gives players a reason to fear being raided, thus encouraging mutual defense pacts, hiring protection, or surrendering when appropriate.
3. Constrains the damage that a raided faction receives to the point that raided factions won't be driven from the server.

Overview

The MassiveRaid plugin identifies when a player (raiding faction) enters a chunk claimed by a faction to which they are enemied (defending faction). If at least one member of the defending faction is online, a SetRaid event is triggered, which captures who is raiding whom along with the time the raid started and the number of defenders online. A broadcast is also sent (e.g. "Afrovia is raiding SteelOath at <chunk coordinates>!", configurable to be sent to just the involved factions, the involved factions and their allies, or the entire server). Lastly, the /dynmap show setting is applied to all members of the raiding faction (configurable), so they can be seen on dynmap.

The SetRaid event only occurs if no similar raid flag was previously set (i.e. if this is the start of the raid).

Every five (configurable) minutes the server checks the location of all online members of the raiding faction. If any of them remains in a chunk claimed by the defending faction, the raid flag remains set. Otherwise the raid flag is unset and the raid is over. The raiders have been driven off or have otherwise given up.

Twenty minutes (configurable) into the raid, the raiding faction receives RaidLoot (configurable, see below) from the defending faction. After RaidLoot is paid, the server checks if the defending faction still has members online and is above its MinBalance (configurable, see below). If no defending members are online, or if the defending faction's bank balance is below MinBalance, then the raid is over and the raid flag is unset. Otherwise, the raid flag is reset and every twenty minutes (configurable) the raiding faction again receives RaidLoot.

RaidLoot

This is the amount that the defending faction has transferred from its bank account into the raiding faction's bank account every time RaidLoot is collected. It is equal to 10r (configurable) for each online member of the defending faction at the time the raid began. During the time that a raid flag is set, the defending faction cannot withdraw money from its bank account.

MinBalance

To minimize the chance of factions being unduly harmed by raiding, e.g. reaching a zero balance and thus having all their chunks unclaimed, a raid cannot begin unless they have at least 3 (configurable) days of taxes in their account. Furthermore, RaidLoot will not remove money that would cause their account to fall below MinBalance.

Considerations

A defending faction that simply has all of its members log off will end up paying one instance of RaidLoot, at which point the raid is over.

A defending faction could engage allies or pay mercenary factions to help sweep the raiding faction from its claimed chunks.

A defending faction could counter-raid, thus forcing the raiding faction to divert resources to their own defenses in order to avoid paying their own RaidLoot.

A defending faction could surrender, choosing to pay a single lump sum to avoid ongoing payments of RaidLoot.

Factions could choose to retain less than 3 days of taxes in their faction bank to avoid being a raid target. However, doing so obviously entails the risk of failing to pay their taxes and having all chunks unclaimed. They might also become the subject of derision from other factions.

Factions with sprawling claims might need to build a gate network in order to be able to successfully defend themselves if they are the target of a multi-front attack. This seems both realistic and encourages the development of meaningful gate networks, while discouraging random and/or isolated claims.

Declaring a faction an enemy while in one of their claimed chunks may not trigger the SetRaid event until the current chunk is left. This is similar to how if you have /f map on, it doesn't update if you claim a chunk until the current chunk is left. This is a minor nuance and generally shouldn't really impact gameplay.

Other Considerations

A /f money baltop command, which returns the balances of the top factions (similar to how /baltop itself works with other economy plugins) would give factions that keep their bank balance high a way to "win" by being at the top of the list, strutting their stuff.

Conclusion

I am certain that if MassiveCraft implemented a plugin such as what is described above, it would attract and keep more players. I also believe it would increase the level of engagement of existing players, especially around forming active mutual defense pacts.

 

[NoMatter_]

No thank you.
Not everyone in the factions worlds enjoys the idea of raiding and being raided, I certainly don't use factions for this benefit. This would force me to hand over my hard-earned regals to someone who decided to rock up to my base and ruin what I might have been doing?
I see the benefit of PVPers in this community, just as much as Role-players, but I don't see the benefit of making everything outside of 'strict-rp areas' based around PVPers.
Can you maybe explain to me how this supports people who aren't PVPers?
I feel as though your forgetting that not everyone in the factions survival world is a PVPer, there's a lot who aren't and what I would like to see most improved, is balancing between the two.

 

[Jackmo_Jones]

Sooo raiders can just go sit on my Fendar darkroom which is in the middle of the ocean and not really possible for me to even know they were there?

Too easy to abuse.

 

[JakkDhread]

No thank you.
Not everyone in the factions worlds enjoys the idea of raiding and being raided, I certainly don't use factions for this benefit. This would force me to hand over my hard-earned regals to someone who decided to rock up to my base and ruin what I might have been doing?
I see the benefit of PVPers in this community, just as much as Role-players, but I don't see the benefit of making everything outside of 'strict-rp areas' based around PVPers.
Can you maybe explain to me how this supports people who aren't PVPers?
I feel as though your forgetting that not everyone in the factions survival world is a PVPer, there's a lot who aren't.

Click to shrink...

While I see your point in this, as someone who has been known to prefer the RP-side of MassiveCraft. It must be accounted for that this is a concept that was suggested as a way to attract more PVPers. While I agree whole-heartedly that MassiveCraft is a community of both RP and PVP, that both-serving idea is not what this was created for. I personally believe this to be an interesting concept given to us from @Mafrorific . Although I am not PVP staff and most certainly wouldn't pretend to speak for the future of MassiveCraft, I think that Mafro has some good ideas that, if filtered to possibly please both sides or was edited to be a better fit, could find their way onto the server. However, I am curious to see how he addresses the things both you and Jackmo have addressed. While I cannot imagine an answer to the RP-aspect, as this is a PVP-centered plugin, perhaps the answer to Jack's note is that they have to be within a certain distance to your F Home? Yet, even then, this could be circumvented by the faction leader simply unsetting the f home. Maybe you have to be in a faction chunk that is within ten chunks of an online player from the enemy faction? But then that person could just go to /TP Roleplay and be safe. Hrm... issues...

 

[NoMatter_]

While I see your point in this, as someone who has been known to prefer the RP-side of MassiveCraft. It must be accounted for that this is a concept that was suggested as a way to attract more PVPers. While I agree whole-heartedly that MassiveCraft is a community of both RP and PVP, that both-serving idea is not what this was created for. I personally believe this to be an interesting concept given to us from @Mafrorific . Although I am not PVP staff and most certainly wouldn't pretend to speak for the future of MassiveCraft, I think that Mafro has some good ideas that, if filtered to possibly please both sides or was edited to be a better fit, could find their way onto the server. However, I am curious to see how he addresses the things both you and Jackmo have addressed. While I cannot imagine an answer to the RP-aspect, as this is a PVP-centered plugin, perhaps the answer to Jack's note is that they have to be within a certain distance to your F Home? Yet, even then, this could be circumvented by the faction leader simply unsetting the f home. Maybe you have to be in a faction chunk that is within ten chunks of an online player from the enemy faction? But then that person could just go to /TP Roleplay and be safe. Hrm... issues...

Click to shrink...

Thanks for the reply.
I can see quality in that and also release that this is a PVP focused suggestion and honestly you're right to say he doesn't need to find a RP compromise or anything of that sort.
I think the main reason I commented, though I'm not a PVPer, is just to make sure that if anyone were to read this and want to implement it to at least see the consequence on the other side of spectrum.
Though @Mafrorific I should of congratulated on you create a pretty thought out plan and putting that much effort into it, even if I don't agree with it man!

 

[Alj23]

As it stands, the following are what players can gain from raiding another faction:

• Loot from killing players that are non premium or have pacifist false.
• Player heads that translates into bragging rights.
• Tribute in the form of regals or items.
• Bragging rights if the raid is won by the attackers. Really this is abstract, and could just as easily have been labeled "the entertainment and joy raiders get out of raiding."

What a raider stands to lose as a result of raiding is as follows:

• Their items if they die.
• Their player head.
• Their dignity in some cases. (For those really embarrassing deaths when you enderpearl and kill yourself or fall into a giant hole and splat.)
• Their /f power.

So with that laid out, the question becomes: Are there enough incentives to make people want to raid, and are there enough possible consequences to make the raider consider the target wisely? For the longest time, these two have balance out. People enjoyed wars, they enjoyed the loot that they got, and they enjoyed the PVP. Which changed though? PVP changed with new updates, changes to plugins, and new plugins that sometime did not work as intended. People did not enjoy this. Some suffered because of this. Some petitioned the staff to change things. Some outright left the server. Some resorted to less savory means such as hacking when they weren't winning the fights they use to. All of this combined led to the gradual but certain decline of the able number of active pvpers. In a community that already wasn't that large to begin with, sustaining these losses didn't exactly make anyone fair for the better.

I for one feel the entry point to be a useful pvper is too high in MassiveCraft. Sure, you can be a pvper the moment you join the server. Someone recruits you, gives you weapons, armor, potions, and says go fight. Sure, you can fight, but will you be useful? Will you carry your own weight and possibly get a kill or two? I would personally say no, you wouldn't. You need time to adjust to MassiveCraft's PVP. You need time to train your MCMMO, which many people have already stated multiple times that they don't want to do, as they find spending the time to do so boring and dull. They don't want to practice, or learn the ins and outs of traits or when to use MCMMO abilities and when not to. And when they realize that this doesn't fair well for them, because they get raided in the factions survival world where they are expected to encounter dangers which they knowingly consent to possibly have happen to them when they are in the survival world, they use the excuse that they don't like getting raided and they don't use the factions world for that reason. when the one of the main points of the faction world is raiding! That's almost like saying you like to live in ISIS controlled territory because you enjoy the view, but you don't like that it's controlled by a military presence that may or may not subject you to terror or death, so you expect them not to do it to you.

Getting back on the topic, I'd love to do some in depth research on the community's general attitude towards the current state of PVP, and ask some questions:

• Do you currently enjoy the PVP on MassiveCraft?
• Based on the answer to the previous question, why?
• What do you feel would increase your's and other's enjoyment of MassiveCraft PVP?
• Getting specific here, do you feel there is enough incentive as of right now to interest the average PVPer in raiding another faction?
• Based on the answer to the previous question, why?
• What would you personally suggest to increase incentive, if your answer to the next to previous question was no?

Really, it's figuring out the specifics. Once we find the specific problem, we can fix it with a specific solution. We also need to make sure the problem we are fixing is the root cause. If say a plugin was implemented to fix what we though was lack of incentive to raid, but really was lack of enjoyment of the actual PVP involved, or lack of ability for new players to begin pvping, well then, nothing really got fixed did it?

Also, when it comes to people criticizing specific points of your idea, I encourage you to simply respond with the most obvious fix, and then edit it into your original post, and cite the person who brought up the problem that you corrected for. It's not feasible to expect the original creator of an idea to have looked at it from all points, and see all possible flaws. For example:

Sooo raiders can just go sit on my Fendar darkroom which is in the middle of the ocean and not really possible for me to even know they were there?

Too easy to abuse.

Click to shrink...

The possible fix to this nicely pointed out flaw is that the raid flag can only be enabled if the enemies are in faction claim that physically connects to the chunk that contains the /f home. This means that a raid would start if they enter the edge of your territory in your main city, but not if they stepped into your darkroom that shouldn't theoretically connect to your /f home chunk. This brings up the argument that should the presence of enemies in any of your claimed territory be considered a raid?

It's a good idea, although expect it to be nitpicked over by the large community. You will have people comment that like it as is. You have people comment that absolutely hate it and would be furious if any version of it was implemented. You will have people comment that like the core idea, but suggest tons of changes. So do take all suggestions with a grain of salt.

 

[Mafrorific]

Sooo raiders can just go sit on my Fendar darkroom which is in the middle of the ocean and not really possible for me to even know they were there?

Too easy to abuse.

Click to shrink...

I realize I wrote quite a bit, and therefore you might've missed these two points:
1. A broadcast is also sent (e.g. "Afrovia is raiding SteelOath at <chunk coordinates>!". Note that the broadcast includes the coordinates of the initial chunk being raided.
2. Lastly, the /dynmap show setting is applied to all members of the raiding faction. Note that all members of the raiding faction have /dynmap show enabled (which can't be disabled while the raid flag is set), which means they will show up on maps.massivecraft.com.

The point of these two nuances in the proposal was to make sure that defenders would know exactly where they are being attacked.

Do those two points address this particular concern?

 

[Mafrorific]

No thank you.
Not everyone in the factions worlds enjoys the idea of raiding and being raided.

Click to shrink...

Hmmm. I always thought raiding and being raided was the key difference between Factions and Towny. If the majority of players on this server don't prefer raiding and being raided, then I'm clearly inviting Factions players to the wrong server.

Edit: Based on some offline responses, I should probably clarify that the Towny plugin is similar to Factions in many ways, but PvP is usually disabled within towns (e.g. on claimed land). Thus, PvP is nearly always consensual, which sounds like what you're advocating for.

 

[NoMatter_]

Hmmm. I always thought raiding and being raided was the key difference between Factions and Towny. If the majority of players on this server don't prefer raiding and being raided, then I'm clearly inviting Factions players to the wrong server.

Click to shrink...

With respect, MassiveCraft is quite different from a lot of other faction servers.
Lots of us are Role-players, builders, etc. There is a large portion of us that are PVPers, yes, but there's a large portion of us that are no.

 

[Mafrorific]

With respect, MassiveCraft is quite different from a lot of other faction servers.
Lots of us are Role-players, builders, etc. There is a large portion of us that are PVPers, yes, but there's a large portion of us that are no.

Click to shrink...

My goal is not to force an experience on unwilling participants. Perhaps there could be one or more worlds created where PvP is disabled. Those would essentially be an extension of Regalia, but with the ability to build, claim, etc.

Those that only want consensual PvP could build on a pacifist world, those that enjoy raiding and being raided on a non-pacifist world (perhaps with the MassiveRaid plugin installed).

 

[NoMatter_]

My goal is not to force an experience on unwilling participants. Perhaps there could be one or more worlds created where PvP is disabled. Those would essentially be an extension of Regalia, but with the ability to build, claim, etc.

Those that only want consensual PvP could build on a pacifist world, those that enjoy raiding and being raided on a non-pacifist world (perhaps with the MassiveRaid plugin installed).

Click to shrink...

No I don't think that would work. There are still Rpers who engage in RP wars, between themselves. Technically still PVP just without the OP ability in it like God armour etc.
Besides, convincing Rpers to move worlds, when we've already place a foothold in these worlds sounds little ridiculous.

I honestly wish PVPers were more focused on raiding other PVP factions.

 

[Theboomyfly]

I both agree, but disagree too. I have been in a PvP faction for a while, so I do understand the problem here: PvP is dying. But I'm mainly a RP'er, so I also understand another problem: not everyone wants to be raided. So, here's what I should suggest; RP factions can defend themselves by locking themselves up in their houses, or logging out. Because they aren't trained at PvP like factions as Liath or Magnanimus. Plus, I would find it ridiculous if you would force PvP on all the RP'ers in the survival world.
However, I know the feeling when someone is being just a large arse against you, but then cowardly logs out when you want revenge. I would say; don't force PvP on the friendly, innocent RP'ers! But, when a so called RP faction starts going for example: "Liath is bad! Jquaile is a big old meanie! Boo-Hoo-Hoo!" Then the faction who wishes revenge, can report this faction. Not to get the player banned, but to like give them more possibilities to get revenge.
Perhaps let a Staff type in a command so that the raiders can open doors, private or not. Just so they can reach the enemy. There should be a way so you can punish people. But you should just not force PvP on the innocent RPers, it just isn't right. And if the staff do decide to force PvP on RPers, well, then PvPers should RP aswel. And no, the Survival Worlds aren't made for PvP, that's just stupid. S - U - R - V - I - V - A - L. You get it now? Survival is totally NOT PvP! If the Survival Worlds were made for PvP, it wouldn't be called Survival, but PvP worlds. KitFarahdeen, on the other hand, is a PvP world. The Survival worlds are as much created for rp and building as it is made for PvP.
I repeat for the last time: Don't enforce PvP on the RP'ers who didn't give you a reason to fight them! I'm just throwing out random ideas in the early morning here, but still.

Friendly greetings, Theboomyfly.

 

[Alj23]

I both agree, but disagree too. I have been in a PvP faction for a while, so I do understand the problem here: PvP is dying. But I'm mainly a RP'er, so I also understand another problem: not everyone wants to be raided. So, here's what I should suggest; RP factions can defend themselves by locking themselves up in their houses, or logging out. Because they aren't trained at PvP like factions as Liath or Magnanimus. Plus, I would find it ridiculous if you would force PvP on all the RP'ers in the survival world.
However, I know the feeling when someone is being just a large arse against you, but then cowardly logs out when you want revenge. I would say; don't force PvP on the friendly, innocent RP'ers! But, when a so called RP faction starts going for example: "Liath is bad! Jquaile is a big old meanie! Boo-Hoo-Hoo!" Then the faction who wishes revenge, can report this faction. Not to get the player banned, but to like give them more possibilities to get revenge.
Perhaps let a Staff type in a command so that the raiders can open doors, private or not. Just so they can reach the enemy. There should be a way so you can punish people. But you should just not force PvP on the innocent RPers, it just isn't right. And if the staff do decide to force PvP on RPers, well, then PvPers should RP aswel. And no, the Survival Worlds aren't made for PvP, that's just stupid. S - U - R - V - I - V - A - L. You get it now? Survival is totally NOT PvP! If the Survival Worlds were made for PvP, it wouldn't be called Survival, but PvP worlds. KitFarahdeen, on the other hand, is a PvP world. The Survival worlds are as much created for rp and building as it is made for PvP.
I repeat for the last time: Don't enforce PvP on the RP'ers who didn't give you a reason to fight them! I'm just throwing out random ideas in the early morning here, but still.

Friendly greetings, Theboomyfly.

Click to shrink...

The joy of the survival worlds is that you don't need a reason to fight someone. You just can. Nobody cares if you're a pvper, a role-player, a builder, a hermit, an outgoing person. You get raided. You consent to the possibility that you might be raided when you decide to play in the survival, pvp enabled world.

To say that the survival worlds aren't meant for PVP is a bit of a stretch, because before KitPVP came along, where do you think a majority, if not all of fighting occurred? The survival worlds.

I look at it like this. Role-players have Regalia with everything they could want. Constant changes being made to improve the atmosphere. Role-play is protected and nurtured here. Then you have the survival worlds. Role-play still has some protection here, in the form that if you hold a role-play event, prior notification on the forums protects the event. But there's a big difference. There's open PVP in this world. PVP you consented to possibly happen to you, since you are in the survival world, surviving against the raids of other factions.

 

[NoMatter_]

The joy of the survival worlds is that you don't need a reason to fight someone. You just can. Nobody cares if you're a pvper, a role-player, a builder, a hermit, an outgoing person. You get raided. You consent to the possibility that you might be raided when you decide to play in the survival, pvp enabled world.

To say that the survival worlds aren't meant for PVP is a bit of a stretch, because before KitPVP came along, where do you think a majority, if not all of fighting occurred? The survival worlds.

I look at it like this. Role-players have Regalia with everything they could want. Constant changes being made to improve the atmosphere. Role-play is protected and nurtured here. Then you have the survival worlds. Role-play still has some protection here, in the form that if you hold a role-play event, prior notification on the forums protects the event. But there's a big difference. There's open PVP in this world. PVP you consented to possibly happen to you, since you are in the survival world, surviving against the raids of other factions.

Click to shrink...

Sorry, tell me again, where in Regalia I have the customization ability to create my own cities/settlement/community with a backstory and everything.
Regalia is a great role-play hubs, full with a fair few features. But I'm a builder, a role-player and I like creating Role-play situations for others.
Each survival world is part of Aloria, a 'role-play' universe, to say that they are for PVPers is a limited option., though I don't agree it's for RPers either. At the end of the day, survival worlds like this, give me the ability to customize to my own heart's intent, and I don't think that should be once again limited by PVPers who find it amusing to pray on those who have no chance.
I think there needs to be more common ground here. It's not good enough to say 'you guys have that', 'where taking this'. Whilst PVPers obviously should have the ability to do their raids, with their MCMMO and Trait builds and God armour, I just don't believe they should be able to ruin Rpers in the survival worlds fun.
Help figure out a balance, not a justification.

 

[BenRekt]

No thank you.
Not everyone in the factions worlds enjoys the idea of raiding and being raided, I certainly don't use factions for this benefit. This would force me to hand over my hard-earned regals to someone who decided to rock up to my base and ruin what I might have been doing?
I see the benefit of PVPers in this community, just as much as Role-players, but I don't see the benefit of making everything outside of 'strict-rp areas' based around PVPers.
Can you maybe explain to me how this supports people who aren't PVPers?
I feel as though your forgetting that not everyone in the factions survival world is a PVPer, there's a lot who aren't and what I would like to see most improved, is balancing between the two.

Click to shrink...

So you won't fight anyone who raids you, and won't surrender either.

Thank you for showing why this plug-in is absolutely needed.

@thor5648

 

[Alj23]

Sorry, tell me again, where in Regalia I have the customization ability to create my own cities/settlement/community with a backstory and everything.
Regalia is a great role-play hubs, full with a fair few features. But I'm a builder, a role-player and I like creating Role-play situations for others.
Each survival world is part of Aloria, a 'role-play' universe, to say that they are for PVPers is a limited option., though I don't agree it's for RPers either. At the end of the day, survival worlds like this, give me the ability to customize to my own heart's intent, and I don't think that should be once again limited by PVPers who find it amusing to pray on those who have no chance.
I think there needs to be more common ground here. It's not good enough to say 'you guys have that', 'where taking this'. Whilst PVPers obviously should have the ability to do their raids, with their MCMMO and Trait builds and God armour, I just don't believe they should be able to ruin Rpers in the survival worlds fun.
Help figure out a balance, not a justification.

Click to shrink...

You can't take the good and not the bad, it doesn't work like that. When you play in the survival worlds, you play with people who enjoy raiding. Simple. Just as much as you enjoy role-play and building, PVPers enjoy raiding.

I mean, imagine if every person you attempted to engage in role-play ignored you because they can. Not for any other reason, then that they have the ability to do so. Now apply that to PVPers raiding certain factions and just being ignored because they can be. Kind of frustrating, right?

I'm not pushing for a change that puts role-players into misery 24/7 in survival worlds. On the contrary, it's against server rules to even raid someone 24/7. At most, you can only be raided by a single faction for around 3-4 hours. And if you are raided by multiple factions, it is stated that you can appeal to staff to have the raids stopped for the rest of the day. Really, when it comes to raiding the system is already in the favor of those who do not like fighting.

I don't think the argument either that the presence of raiders ruins a role-players survival world experience suffices. You cannot possibly tell me that you are being raided every time you step foot into your faction. To say so wouldn't even be possible because of the aforementioned rules that are in place to prevent this. So if you aren't constantly being raided, or you have to suffer through 3-4 hours of raids out of your day, that still proves the point that there are time periods when you aren't being raided, and can enjoy your fun.

 

[NoMatter_]

So you won't fight anyone who raids you, and won't surrender either.

Thank you for showing why this plug-in is absolutely needed.

@thor5648

Click to shrink...

No I won't, because it's not how I want to play the game. There isn't anything wrong with that and there's a lot of people who are happy to play this way as well.

 

[BenRekt]

No I won't, because it's not how I want to play the game. There isn't anything wrong with that and there's a lot of people who are happy to play this way as well.

Click to shrink...

So your best argument is basically "I don't like it, I shouldn't have to deal with it.". Not a very strong argument in my honest opinion.

 

[Theboomyfly]

The joy of the survival worlds is that you don't need a reason to fight someone. You just can. Nobody cares if you're a pvper, a role-player, a builder, a hermit, an outgoing person. You get raided. You consent to the possibility that you might be raided when you decide to play in the survival, pvp enabled world.

To say that the survival worlds aren't meant for PVP is a bit of a stretch, because before KitPVP came along, where do you think a majority, if not all of fighting occurred? The survival worlds.

I look at it like this. Role-players have Regalia with everything they could want. Constant changes being made to improve the atmosphere. Role-play is protected and nurtured here. Then you have the survival worlds. Role-play still has some protection here, in the form that if you hold a role-play event, prior notification on the forums protects the event. But there's a big difference. There's open PVP in this world. PVP you consented to possibly happen to you, since you are in the survival world, surviving against the raids of other factions.

Click to shrink...

I never declared that the Survival Worlds aren't for PvP, I only stated that the Survival Worlds aren't only for PvP, but also for building and roleplaying. Now that has been cleared out, we can move to a different argument.
As someone who has PvP'ed for a short while, I do understand the basics of PvP. I do think that raids should be made easier in certain cases, but not in all. If people want to hide in their homes, it is their complete rights. Because if it weren't, why have a home? Why do you think the first Human beings on our planet built houses? For protection of course! And in MineCraft this is not much different. We built homes against monsters and against PvPers.
I do think that if I would insult you really badly, that I should lose all my rights to hide in my home. Like, if I would state: "Alj smells like cabbage", that you should be able to take revenge. But otherwise, I don't think that people who don't want to fight should fight. You are probably a very good PvPer with god gear, pots, good skills and McMMo. However, what if I don't have those things? Wouldn't it be suicidal to face you? I would lose my stuff anyways, so why wouldn't I hide in my home?
If you would be in a real life situation and someone twice the size of you would want to fight you for no reason, and you don't stand a chance. Would you fight? Wouldn't you run and flee or just hide, if it could save your life? If you would be smart, you would act like a coward in that part. The same happens in MineCraft.

Friendly greetings, Theboomyfly.

 

[NoMatter_]

You can't take the good and not the bad, it doesn't work like that. When you play in the survival worlds, you play with people who enjoy raiding. Simple. Just as much as you enjoy role-play and building, PVPers enjoy raiding.

I mean, imagine if every person you attempted to engage in role-play ignored you because they can. Not for any other reason, then that they have the ability to do so. Now apply that to PVPers raiding certain factions and just being ignored because they can be. Kind of frustrating, right?

I'm not pushing for a change that puts role-players into misery 24/7 in survival worlds. On the contrary, it's against server rules to even raid someone 24/7. At most, you can only be raided by a single faction for around 3-4 hours. And if you are raided by multiple factions, it is stated that you can appeal to staff to have the raids stopped for the rest of the day. Really, when it comes to raiding the system is already in the favor of those who do not like fighting.

I don't think the argument either that the presence of raiders ruins a role-players survival world experience suffices. You cannot possibly tell me that you are being raided every time you step foot into your faction. To say so wouldn't even be possible because of the aforementioned rules that are in place to prevent this. So if you aren't constantly being raided, or you have to suffer through 3-4 hours of raids out of your day, that still proves the point that there are time periods when you aren't being raided, and can enjoy your fun.

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MassiveCraft players have the choice of not engaging in role-play whenever they like. The idea that this right is given to PVPers and others in the community, but that it not returns sounds hypocritical and even problematic. I would like to find a balance and a solution to this.
Your comment 'imagine if every person you attempted to engage in role-play ignored you because they can', exactly justifies this point. They can, and they are allowed to do that. You are allowed to chose the role-play scenarios and events to be involved in. Should I not be able to choose other part of the game I would like to get involved in? Or is the idea I should be forced to run back to Regalia, and only be allowed one area to limited my RP in?
I'm quite comfortable with hiding in buildings when PVPers come, because at least then they realise I'm not interested in the way they play this game. I choose my way, they choose there's, that's only right. PVPers can then go on their merry way to another faction to see if they get a different outcome.
My ONLY issue with this tactic is that if I were in the middle of a role-play situation, it would be interrupted and could take up to 5 hours before I can attempt to try that again. I hardly have that sort of time to wait around.

I've mentioned this before, but prior to stricter rules being in-place, there was times where factions were raided nearly every single day. Some large factions, and some small factions where PVPers seemed to have disagreed with their opinions and therefore decided to rock up on their doorstep and continuously raid them while they are laughing in a team-speak channel. I've been in a few scenerios like this myself, and it wasn't at all enjoyable and nearly ruined the server for me. So yes, I can possibly tell you that there has been times that a faction has been raided every-time another faction noticed they are online. Are you telling me as a PVPer you've never checked whether a player was online to raid him?

 

[thor5648]

I 100% agree, as @jackamo_jones said this could be abused, perhaps for every 3 bases you make, you make you have one that is designated for raid tax? This you could set and change every few days, to prevent people from camping out in say a darkroom claim. @Mafrorific

 

[NoMatter_]

So your best argument is basically "I don't like it, I shouldn't have to deal with it.". Not a very strong argument in my honest opinion.

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Telling me I should put up with other people's idea of fun and not have my own doesn't sound like a strong argument to me.

 

[NoMatter_]

Snip

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I'd like to also elaborate on my last argument and mention, as much as there's plenty of value in PVPers in this community, it's pretty evident that a fair few of them have taken upon themselves to turn a exchanging of words into a complete raid-fest just to make one party feel superior and there's no protection from this.

 

[BenRekt]

I'd like to also elaborate on my last argument and mention, as much as there's plenty of value in PVPers in this community, it's pretty evident that a fair few of them have taken upon themselves to turn a exchanging of words into a complete raid-fest just to make one party feel superior and there's no protection from this.

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Again, like I said in my first comment, the fact that you don't want to fight but are unwilling to surrender is exactly why this plug-in is needed.

 

[NoMatter_]

Again, like I said in my first comment, the fact that you don't want to fight but are unwilling to surrender is exactly why this plug-in is needed.

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So, from your comment, I'm guessing your suggesting that whenever someone doesn't agree with me, or has a issue with something I do, and therefore decides to raid me, I should surrender. Which obviously isn't fun for me, and is problematic. So your suggesting I'm not allowed to have fun?
I'm not trying to manipulate you or twist your words, but rather trying to show you how this sounds to me. The way I have fun on this server is to build, create role-play factions and sceneries and role-play in general, this needs to be done in the survival worlds. Making me pay regals and valuables every-time someone decides to raid me is not fun. I also don't find it fun to PVP the way most PVPers do, so the option of fighting is off the table. Am I missing something? is there another option?
I would love to see some valuable effort to compromise being heard by you. I honestly would.

 

[Caedit]

Again, like I said in my first comment, the fact that you don't want to fight but are unwilling to surrender is exactly why this plug-in is needed.

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Do you feel that people who don't fight raiders and don't surrender owe you something? You're sounding extremely elitest and petty each time you post, so please clarify how people who can't fight back should give you money when you sit there invincible in their faction, ruining their building and RP five hours a day. (Five hours a day is not trivial, btw, it may be for kids who get home from school but other people have obligations beyond playing this game, sorry.).

I don't want to twist words or come off as antagonistic, but I would like you to clarify your point of view, since I frankly find it hard to relate to your views atm. Not mentioning that your argument as I read it is completely different from the reason the OP wants the plugin. He wants it so people who raid other pvp factions get something out of it, while you seem more interested in punishing role-players, builders, and everyone else who doesn't PVP exclusively.

 

[Mafrorific]

At the end of the day, survival worlds like this, give me the ability to customize to my own heart's intent, and I don't think that should be once again limited by PVPers who find it amusing to pray on those who have no chance.

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So, if given the option, would you declare yourself a pacifist faction and have PvP disabled in your claims?

While I've never heard of a Factions server allowing pacifists (the Towny plugin is really designed for what you're doing), I'm not against it and see no reason why that would be incompatible with the MassiveRaids plugin I'm proposing. The plugin would simply not set the raid flag for factions that declare themselves as pacifist. You guys would essentially be playing the game you like to play (non-PvP RPing) alongside those of us that want to play the game we like to play (raiding and being raided).

As long as pacifist factions don't become banks for raiding factions to safely store their regals, I don't see a real problem with this.

 

[Caedit]

So, if given the option, would you declare yourself a pacifist faction and have PvP disabled in your claims?

While I've never heard of a Factions server allowing pacifists (the Towny plugin is really designed for what you're doing), I'm not against it and see no reason why that would be incompatible with the MassiveRaids plugin I'm proposing. The plugin would simply not set the raid flag for factions that declare themselves as pacifist. You guys would essentially be playing the game you like to play (non-PvP RPing) alongside those of us that want to play the game we like to play (raiding and being raided).

As long as pacifist factions don't become banks for raiding factions to safely store their regals, I don't see a real problem with this.

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I don't think you can set your faction to pacifist on this server, at least as far as I know.

 

[NoMatter_]

So, if given the option, would you declare yourself a pacifist faction and have PvP disabled in your claims?

While I've never heard of a Factions server allowing pacifists (the Towny plugin is really designed for what you're doing), I'm not against it and see no reason why that would be incompatible with the MassiveRaids plugin I'm proposing. The plugin would simply not set the raid flag for factions that declare themselves as pacifist. You guys would essentially be playing the game you like to play (non-PvP RPing) alongside those of us that want to play the game we like to play (raiding and being raided).

As long as pacifist factions don't become banks for raiding factions to safely store their regals, I don't see a real problem with this.

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Yes, I was actually going to suggest this however I have one small issue.
Apart of the upcoming project I am making, we are wanting to create what we refer to as a 'action-based role-play'. Basically we want to contact other RP factions and talk about making a RP war where we would set a time and date and we would engaged in a battle. The winner would have some RP consequence like 'stealing from the ___ treasury' etc. Like surrender terms but role-play driven.
PVP disabled would prevent this, but I'm sure there would be some way around this for events like this.
Apart these events, we would be completely pacifist, yes.
A love your compromise, and thank you for attempting one.

 

[Mafrorific]

Yes, I was actually going to suggest this however I have one small issue. Basically we want to...engaged in a battle. PVP disabled would prevent this....

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Well, if PvP was only disabled in your claims, as I proposed, then your battle could simply be set someplace outside your claims. You could even unclaim an area temporarily if you wanted the scene of the battle to be in someone's base.

Most of the objections I've heard to the plugin seem to be based in broader objections to non-consensual PvP overall. I'd ask that those objecting to non-consensual PvP discuss that in another thread (perhaps suggesting a Pacifist flag for factions that want to play that way).

I'd ask that this thread be to discuss the merits and shortcomings of the MassiveRaids plugin I'm proposing, and that we assume it only applies to those of us for whom raiding and being raided is fun. Thanks!

 

[Johto_Jo]

Personally, even as a strict RP'er, I find it somewhat entertaining to get raided.

When under attack, it can often add to the role-play, and on a few occasions, I even managed to coax the PVP'ers into joining in on an RP. I actually met @CaptainSexyBeard during a raid and became friends shortly after. I mean, it sucks to die over and over, but if you can manage to hide or wait out an attack, the raiders leave. You don't always have to take part. ^^; My brother, cousin, and I had a blast trying to wall up our castle whilst getting shanked by the group of PVP'ers and ending up getting knocked off of our island and into the volcano below on multiple counts.

I guess it all depends on how you look at it. Perhaps I'm disgustingly optimistic.

 

[BenRekt]

Do you feel that people who don't fight raiders and don't surrender owe you something? You're sounding extremely elitest and petty each time you post, so please clarify how people who can't fight back should give you money when you sit there invincible in their faction, ruining their building and RP five hours a day. (Five hours a day is not trivial, btw, it may be for kids who get home from school but other people have obligations beyond playing this game, sorry.).

I don't want to twist words or come off as antagonistic, but I would like you to clarify your point of view, since I frankly find it hard to relate to your views atm. Not mentioning that your argument as I read it is completely different from the reason the OP wants the plugin. He wants it so people who raid other pvp factions get something out of it, while you seem more interested in punishing role-players, builders, and everyone else who doesn't PVP exclusively.

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So, from your comment, I'm guessing your suggesting that whenever someone doesn't agree with me, or has a issue with something I do, and therefore decides to raid me, I should surrender. Which obviously isn't fun for me, and is problematic. So your suggesting I'm not allowed to have fun?
I'm not trying to manipulate you or twist your words, but rather trying to show you how this sounds to me. The way I have fun on this server is to build, create role-play factions and sceneries and role-play in general, this needs to be done in the survival worlds. Making me pay regals and valuables every-time someone decides to raid me is not fun. I also don't find it fun to PVP the way most PVPers do, so the option of fighting is off the table. Am I missing something? is there another option?
I would love to see some valuable effort to compromise being heard by you. I honestly would.

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Both of you, as far as I can tell, don't defend your faction and also won't defend it. How is that in anyway elitist that I would expect people who don't defend themselves to pay tribute? Maybe instead of complaining that all of your valuables would be stolen, you could possibly... defend your own faction (as insane as that sounds) or have someone defend it for you.

 

[Caedit]

Both of you, as far as I can tell, don't defend your faction and also won't defend it. How is that in anyway elitist that I would expect people who don't defend themselves to pay tribute? Maybe instead of complaining that all of your valuables would be stolen, you could possibly... defend your own faction (as insane as that sounds) or have someone defend it for you.

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Well with the way things are currently, if we were to "defend" it we'd just get slaughtered because the players who only do pvp and raiding are much more likely to have a higher MCMMO power level and have better optimized traits than people who roleplay, build, or do anything besides constant PVP and grinding... Again, I still can't shake the feeling that you prefer those who do hardcore PVP be favored over those who don't. If we defend we die over and over, if we get someone else to defend then we get to sit inside as people duke it out in our faction land, why go through the effort of hiding in houses and calling allies constantly because you guys get bored/frustrated fighting actual PVPers when we can hide in houses and bore you to death without wasting our allies time? Your argument seems to overall be only in favor of those who PVP, as Maforific already stated, adding this suggestion simultaneously with the permission to set a faction as pacifist would be a more fairly balanced decision, which I am more in favor of then adding this plugin idea by itself, one that would drain the banks of players, without considering who literally cannot fight back due to level/skill/hardware/connection/free time difference without the pacifist option.

Actual opinion, I think adding this plugin idea in conjunction with Pacifist factions could, possibly, work out. However I see some ways it could be abused, or make the state of PVP incentive worse. If all non PVP factions turn on pacifist, new pvp factions are going to be absolutely destroyed by the bigger factions (These bigger factions having nobody else to pick on now), and probably lead to one to three factions becoming dominant and constantly raging war with each other until they get bored and leave. Of course this is just speculation about the ramifications, I could be wrong and this could work fine, or end up somehow worse than my prediction.

 

[da_CamelQueen]

Perhaps I'm disgustingly optimistic.

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yes

 

[Lord_Aza]

the Towny plugin is really designed for what you're doing

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Yeah, umm.. No.

The factions plugin is designed for Massivecraft. That means it's meant to be used by everyone on the server, not just PVPers. Some players enjoy factions as a lighter RP environment, or simply like the idea of playing survival in unique, medieval worlds.

The Factions-plugin is easy to use, and as a leader myself, I've learned to love all the commands, the ranking system, the ability to set permissions..
I'd rather find myself another server than be forced to use Towny.

 

[BenRekt]

Staff have already said that they will never add "Pacifist" factions.

 

[NoMatter_]

Both of you, as far as I can tell, don't defend your faction and also won't defend it. How is that in anyway elitist that I would expect people who don't defend themselves to pay tribute? Maybe instead of complaining that all of your valuables would be stolen, you could possibly... defend your own faction (as insane as that sounds) or have someone defend it for you.

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Can I defend my faction with words? You already have read that my faction is role-play only. Does does not include PVP. The PVP your speaking of is NOT part of the faction. It couldn't be any more plain and simple. You're just ignoring statements nows.

 

[krios41]

so, this is all too long to to read (main post too, quickly looked over it), so excuse me if i missed something or repeat what someone said already.
if i did miss something, please tell me!

So, here, my 2 regals on the matter.
As far as i have read and understood it, the raidflag get's set when you declare war on a faction and then walk on their land, correct?
With this, go to a big faction, stand near their chunks, gdeclare war, stand on the chunks to get teh raidflag set, collect your money, neutral them. rince repeat. congratulations, you just robbed an entire faction of it's money!

Oh, i just noticed this, timer you say?
sure, let's make it easier to abuse.
I'm a lot of teh time the only one of my faction online because my timezone differs greatly from the rest. since i can't pvp this would make me my faction aperfect target, simply declare war, get teh raidflag up and running, and watch the money flow in because i can't defend myself or my faction.
"But krios!" i hear you say "you can call in your allies to defend your faction!"
In theory i could yes, but let's be honest here, if it was this easy to get my regals, do you honestly think my allies would stay allies and not just do this themselves? after all, i can't pay people continiously to defend the faction, i might aswel give everyone my regals then.

This idea is so flawed in so many different way's i can't list all the possible way's to abuse this.
my appologies if i sounded rude, my regals are prescious to me.
also, i want my potato, where is my potato?

 

[CaptainSexyBeard]

Personally, even as a strict RP'er, I find it somewhat entertaining to get raided.

When under attack, it can often add to the role-play, and on a few occasions, I even managed to coax the PVP'ers into joining in on an RP. I actually met @CaptainSexyBeard during a raid and became friends shortly after. I mean, it sucks to die over and over, but if you can manage to hide or wait out an attack, the raiders leave. You don't always have to take part. ^^; My brother, cousin, and I had a blast trying to wall up our castle whilst getting shanked by the group of PVP'ers and ending up getting knocked off of our island and into the volcano below on multiple counts.

I guess it all depends on how you look at it. Perhaps I'm disgustingly optimistic.

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Ha. Haha. If anything, I fell off the island into the volcano below more than you lot did. I flew, if I remember correctly xD

 

[Made_By]

It annoys me very much when people declare their own factions as roleplay, pacifists. Honestly, if we look back to the roots of this server this type of thing was never around, people just got on and accepted the fact that some time down the road you'll run into a stranger that will most likely try and kill you. This is a factions server. A server where factions are supposed to compete against each other, strive for dominance whether it is through brute pvp force or other strategies like builds and such. @NoMatter_ you seem to have some nicely thought about plans for your faction but sooner or later you will unfortunately face the fact that those plans do not fit in this server.

Factions build cities to protect their people, what you're suggesting is building a city, but be pacifist and that city will protect you from no one. It's like getting a brand new shiny car but never driving it. Pvp is dying and you prove it by what you are saying yourself.
As Alj said, there seems to be a very high demand to become what is essentially a pvper. I myself have tried but yes the usual excuses applied end I ended up losing time and motivation to be involved in any aggressive form of pvp. Heck I'll still fight if someone walks up to my walls.

End of my poorly constructed slight rant, I think this idea is good, may need some work but let's hope it can return some fear of factions on this server. We need the days back where if you walked out your gates you dare not go with any valuable items.