Archived Making Flywater 100 Points

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Wannag

Wannag

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Well, as the title suggests, what I am basically suggesting is making flywater 100 points. This is for a few reasons.
  1. Flywater at 50 points gives too much of an advantage for too little of a price
  2. Anyone with flywater, and within 500 blocks of water can easily become immortal in almost any pvp situation.
  3. Flywater PvP is non-existent, nobody will ever seriously die in Flywater PvP
Now, what about the Roleplayers and Builders?

Roleplay: Just like PvP, Roleplay trait loadouts should have Good and Bad things, and if Flywater with such an advantage that it gives, should be worth a larger sacrifice than only 50 points...
Builders: I have never seen someone need flywater for building, unless they do something underwater, which is probably 1/50 builds... now, in terms of traveling, most people who travel somewhere using flywater usually dont need many other traits, Flywater being 100 points wont create such an uncomfortable situation for them.

Now, by making Flywater 100 points you get numerous pros:

  • Make the majority of PvP'ers happy
  • Make traits a bit more strategy based by having a more pro-con trait build
  • Help balance the imbalance that it provides at only being 50 instead of 100 points.
  • Possibly make Roleplay trait builds more give-take and less OP? (I dont know about this one)
  • Make PvP more fun, less swim and chase.
The only con I can think of:
  • Might provide slight discomfort for Roleplayers if they cant put together their perfect trait build without having some negatives.
Why that con shouldn't be taken too seriously :
  • Traits weren't meant to be some easy, win-win way of playing, they're a system that you're supposed to give some sacrifices that you want, so if anyone wants to use Flywater they'll need to remove 1 of their + traits or add a better - trait which in all honesty, is a small price to pay for taking a step in balancing traits.
I dont know if anywhere in this thread I may have offended someone, if so That was certainly not my goal and it was completly accidental, I'd prefer if you vote no that you give your reason why not. Thanks for taking the time to read through this to anyone who did.

Some people I wanna tag:
@BenRekt @65jes89 @Sevak @Sinthe @DarShauwn @Tokugawryuu @feiooos @jquaile @morrc5 @RazeII @spoonly @Jackmo_Jones @Soupman7 @Chappers65 @thor5648 @greenman99 @DemonicDagger @znake1468 @HeartAched @Neckerei @Morbytogan @Stonejrod
@Thortuna @MonMarty@ridgefox @Yoloorange
 
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All I can say is this is a great idea. I use flywater, and would be totally fine if it got 100 points. For PvP, you guys win. For RP, it isn't really that bad, since traits aren't really lore compliant (from what I've gathered)

All in all, for a trait that does give /fly in a situation, I'm surprised it's low already. 100 seems like a good solid number. If it had to be lower, it shouldn't step below the 80 point mark. But I like 100.
 
I use Flywater for my RP char Slizzar. But 100 points wouldn't be that bad. And I understand for pvp it's a major problem to deal with. So I say let's do it! 100 points isn't that bad.
 
Wannag said:
Flywater PvP is non-existent, nobody will ever seriously die in Flywater PvP
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There was a not so recent raid at Tyberia, where archery flywater turned the tables. Flywater definitely is a trait found in PVP, just ask Insani :)

But I do see where you are going with this. In flywater PVP, when you are low on health, all you have to do is go in a stright line to get away, or even pearl to throw off pursuers. This is a valid argument. However, water does not break health pots. Blocks/people break them. So to heal in PVP for me, would be much harder personally. Do I think Flywater makes you invincible? Nope. Is it an powerful trait for PVP? Definitely.

To nerf the speed, would do nothing. You can only go as fast as others, so its still difficult to keep up. However, boosting this trait to 100 sounds ridiculous. I know there is some need for a change, but it seems that much of a dramatic change would be outrageous. At most, I would only increase it to 65pts. Not everyone has premium, and I am already against premium only traits, along with the extra points they receive. I hate to decline a lot of ideas without introducing new ones, but there has to be the correct fix, not a rash one.
 
I disagree and here's why… People who have Flywater, as stated before, usually have xxxVulnerable on their builds too. I do personally. We have disadvantages already because of it. I don't think this point change needs to happen.
 
znake1468 said:
I disagree and here's why… People who have Flywater, as stated before, usually have xxxVulnerable on their builds too. I do personally. We have disadvantages already because of it. I don't think this point change needs to happen.
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I can make a complete tank trait build with fly water and with only 2 vulnerable traits on. Those being unarmed and archery which all pvpers run anyways. So the whole "they need more debuffs to run fly water ain't that true."
greenman99 said:
There was a not so recent raid at Tyberia, where archery flywater turned the tables. Flywater definitely is a trait found in PVP, just ask Insani :)
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But did the archers die? Odds are not since killing people when it's fly water v fly water, it usually just ends up with them running around and no one hitting anything. Example: About a year ago in the Mithril vs Raptum war I had a fight with lewistard which lasted about 15 mins and neither one of us used more then a hotbar of pots. The fight only ended cause we got out of the water and fought on real land. So no fly water pvp does not exist in any real serious form besides archers firing from the ocean then running when someone looks at them.
 
DemonicDagger said:
About a year ago in the Mithril vs Raptum war I had a fight with lewistard which lasted about 15 mins and neither one of us used more then a hotbar of pots. The fight only ended cause we got out of the water and fought on real land.
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The fact of the matter is that you CHOSE to engage in flywater PVP. Is it honestly any different when someone is crap inclosed PVP and they push door? No, you can only blame the decision. If people do not like/want to engage in flywater combat, there is a simple solution. Don't. Don't PVP near water where they could escape. There are other players on the server that require to have this trait available for them, so if a few people get about dying/people fleeing with this, then the answer is do not do it.
 
znake1468 said:
I disagree and here's why… People who have Flywater, as stated before, usually have xxxVulnerable on their builds too. I do personally. We have disadvantages already because of it. I don't think this point change needs to happen.
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The only vulnerable traits most pvpers use are Archery and unarmed. No one runs into battle with Sword/Axe vulnerable when they know that their opponents are using either of the two. There are also more negative traits, other than the vulnerable ones. (Harmwater, Unholy, mining fatigue).
 
I'm just hearing a lot of complaining that PVP is too difficult, when people do it differently. And I'm hearing that because of one group of people... We need to change something that everybody uses. It's really not making any sense to me why people can't adapt to the way different people fight.
 
znake1468 said:
I disagree and here's why… People who have Flywater, as stated before, usually have xxxVulnerable on their builds too. I do personally. We have disadvantages already because of it. I don't think this point change needs to happen.
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That's not true... Pretty much everyone uses the exact same negative traits (unarmedvuln, archeryvuln, harmwater, miningfatigue) which could easily allow for either using health boost 1 or not using a resist trait, leaving room for flywater. So currently the disadvantages are nearly non-existent. 100 points for flywater, however, would actually cause a disadvantage to a flywater user as you spoke of.
 
znake1468 said:
I'm just hearing a lot of complaining that PVP is too difficult, when people do it differently. And I'm hearing that because of one group of people... We need to change something that everybody uses. It's really not making any sense to me why people can't adapt to the way different people fight.
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I don't know how to put this nicely, but you are just a bit out of your depth at this point. Flywater is not pvp, it's a means of escaping pvp or becoming invincible as an archer. It's not fun, and hardly anyone disagrees with me, the exception being archers, whose trait build could easily compensate for another 50 points on flywater. It's not a question of adapting, as you put it, but rather that it's simply overpowered and needs to be nerfed...
 
znake1468 said:
I'm just hearing a lot of complaining that PVP is too difficult, when people do it differently. And I'm hearing that because of one group of people... We need to change something that everybody uses. It's really not making any sense to me why people can't adapt to the way different people fight.
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I get your point, but you can still use flywater if its brought up to 100 points. The only difference now is that you'll need more sacrifices in your trait build in exchange for the huge flywater advantage.
 
Wannag said:
I get your point, but you can still use flywater if its brought up to 100 points. The only difference now is that you'll need more sacrifices in your trait build in exchange for the huge flywater advantage.
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If we raise the point can we also add perhaps another trait spot? I could probably compensate for the new point value by adding another negative trait but I would need an extra spot.
 
znake1468 said:
If we raise the point can we also add perhaps another trait spot? I could probably compensate for the new point value by adding another negative trait but I would need an extra spot.
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But the idea is to make it harder to use, not make it easier... The challenge of traits isn't really using the fewest debuffs possible, there's all sorts of debuffs we could use to do so. The challenge of a good trait build is getting it to fit in just 10 slots, so adding another trait spot wouldn't really make using flywater any more of a negative thing than it is now.
 
Wannag said:
Flywater at 50 points gives too much of an advantage for too little of a price
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I support this idea by this reason alone. No need to turn this into another PvP argument/debate thread.
I'm sure we can all agree that it is a bit crazy that for 50 points you basically have /fly whenever you hit water. Granted this trait is mostly used in PvP and travel, the fact remains that the fastest mode of transportation.

I'm going to justify this 100 point change without bringing up PvP, and throwing in trait comparisons.

So the only real comparisons I have to work with are the other fly traits and the speed traits:
Flylava is only useful in the nether. this ability should not play a factor in the flywater trait, as it is only useful maybe 5% of the time.
We can also signor flyweb for the same reason, as this is probably only 1% of the time.
I'm going to ignore speed, as it is the weaker alternative to speed2.

So now we have Speed2 vs flywater. Speed2 is 100 points, plus a premium trait. Flywater is 50 points, and is available to everyone. Yet when you factor in which is more versatile, Flywater is probably the winner every time.

Flywater is arguably the fastest mode of transportation in the worlds, yet it is cheaper than Speed2. It shouldn't be that cheap to have a trait that trumps it's land equivalent in every regard. So for that reason, I believe that flywater needs to be more expensive.
 
znake1468 said:
I just don't think you need to go all the way up to 100. Is 75 not a reasonable compromise?
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I mean, it might be a good compromise yes, but I still stand firm that it should be made 100 points, I would agree to 75 only for non-premium sake
 
Ok, I said 'No' for a few reasons. (That may have been mentioned already but I didn't read some of the comments, I apologize now if anything has already been mentioned.)
  • This would completely kill non-premium's trait points. We only have 100 to work with, so bumping it up to 100 would be absolutely insane. It would pretty much be Flywater and three negative traits to balance it out. I don't PVP often, but I would suggest a trait point raise to 70 at the very most.
  • Flywater is an important trait for roleplayers as well. Maiar characters wouldn't be the same without it, and roleplayers don't want to worry about using a bunch of negative traits to balance it out. My solution is to do what I suggested in the first bullet.
 
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Winterclaw12 said:
Ok, I said 'No' for a few reasons. (That may have been mentioned already but I didn't read some of the comments, I apologize now if anything has already been mentioned.
  • This would completely kill non-premium's trait points. We only have 100 to work with, so bumping it up to 100 would be absolutely insane. It would pretty much be Flywater and three negative traits to balance it out. I don't PVP often, but I would suggest a trait point raise to 70 at the very most.
  • Flywater is an important trait for roleplayers as well. Maiar characters wouldn't be the same without it, and roleplayers don't want to worry about using a bunch of negative traits to balance it out. My solution is to do what I suggested in the first bullet.
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I agree with your statement, I made another suggestion thread about prems and non-prems getting equal trait slots, trait points and overall access to traits, hopefully it gets accepted, and maybe 100 points will become a possibility?
 
Wannag said:
I agree with your statement, I made another suggestion thread about prems and non-prems getting equal trait slots, trait points and overall access to traits, hopefully it gets accepted, and maybe 100 points will become a possibility?
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Hmm, good point, though I still think 100 is a bit much. (Even for flywater) I would simply do 80 or 75 points, equal points or not.
 
Winterclaw12 said:
Ok, I said 'No' for a few reasons. (That may have been mentioned already but I didn't read some of the comments, I apologize now if anything has already been mentioned.)
  • This would completely kill non-premium's trait points. We only have 100 to work with, so bumping it up to 100 would be absolutely insane. It would pretty much be Flywater and three negative traits to balance it out. I don't PVP often, but I would suggest a trait point raise to 70 at the very most.
  • Flywater is an important trait for roleplayers as well. Maiar characters wouldn't be the same without it, and roleplayers don't want to worry about using a bunch of negative traits to balance it out. My solution is to do what I suggested in the first bullet.
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1: It would make flywater more difficult to use in pvp. That's the point. If you want to have advantages that big, you need to take disadvantages to balance it.
2: Most large negative traits only really affect you in PVP, I don't see the problem. I'm quite sure if you really wanted flywater you'd be willing to compromise to get it.

Personally I like this suggestion as is. +1
 
This suggestion will be kept up for staff review at a later point.
 
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