Archived Guards Should Only Be Able To Call In Reinforcements Ooc For More Major Things.

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Sozzer

Sozzer

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There's been a lot of issues with this, and the recent two in particular have done nothing but reinforce my opinion on this. A random mugging? Not worth calling in five people. If a guard responds, that's fine. If they get beaten, that's fine so long as nothing like kidnapping and such is forced on them. Calling in numerous reinforcements when it looks like you might lose creates an environment where crime rp is, quite simply, impossible - and while I understand that Regalia is a military city, there's plenty of cases where realism is sacrificed for the sake of roleplay.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the effort the vigilant shield are making to properly guard - I really, really do. They've got limited resources and people, but they're still doing a good job - a wonderful one, even, especially given what they've got to work with.

I just don't think that every minor infraction that isn't behind closed doors - and even some that are - should be punished with instant guard attack, and I very much don't think that guards should be unable to lose a fight because of ooc reinforcements. I agree that say, an unplanned vampire attack or noble kidnapping is worth calling in multiple guards over.

For the sake of making crime rp on the surface possible without the result, every single time, being getting arrested by 5+ guards, I personally believe that they should only be able to do so when the situation is beyond "This guy mugged this other guy, and our guard got beat up a bit."

Your guards aren't untouchable any more than our criminals are. If you lose a fight - and yes, this is possible - then put a warrant on them or something instead of turning it into chaos for the sake of making sure they get beaten then and there.

You can warrant them, or even do something fun that creates more interesting rp for everyone involved, like launch an investigation and search for information, uncover lies and find the culprit and do all that fun detective work if it's something like a noble attack. I for one would love to see a person getting interrogated for information they're withholding because you found out they're lying or something. That sort of thing is what makes for great guard rp for everyone involved, criminal and guard alike. The way it goes currently just makes for chaos and ooc salt. If people honestly tried, investigated, hunted and sleuthed, and even resorted to things like hiring criminals to help them, I would LOVE for Hiesir to be taken down, even by common thugs in the sewer tavern, or for her disguise to be found out and her arrested. That sort of rp is amazingly good fun and just being a part of it is great. But so far attempts to take her down have been 50% metagaming, 50% long planning that ends up amounting to nothing, and 100% brute force.



To recap. If someone's trying to kidnap or maim (especially if they're trying to do so to a guard) without it being an arranged thing, then yes, calling in reinforcements is quite reasonable. If they're just going to attack you so you don't arrest them and then bolt before it gets ugly, then there really should be no need. Roleplay intelligent guarding. Investigate and sleuth and stuff. Don't just call in reinforcements whenever things aren't going the same way, and I can all but guarantee that the vast majority of the time you won't have to deal with it happening to you. The ability to call reinforcements in over minor things or losing a fight for once is abused and drowns any chances of crime rp, it's why I stick to the sewer 99% of the time.
 
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As a little side-note. When I roleplay crime, it's not with the goal of murdering guards. If I encounter a guard - which happens every time - I don't want to do something like maim them or kidnap or w/e unless it's part of something I've planned with the player, because that is quite simply pointless and doesn't make for good rp. I'm not some evil horrible person that does nothing but get salty at people and stuff, I just don't think that it's worth reacting like that to a situation if it doesn't have long-term consequences for you.
 
yeah all right that's fair enough, sozzer's right i reckon
 
Some reasons I see reinforcements being plausible is:
  • the guard has been gone longer than usual, and is not on their patrol route.
  • said crime is in a public area.
there's more, but those are some I think are the better ones. I think a mugging really shouldn't need a guard involved. But a the same time, no one else is allowed to help out, so we're stuck with guards getting involved 99% of the time.

I think the actual law enforcement system is a bit flawed in favor of "good guys."
 
I think the only reasons I disagree with this is that a guard will always stand at every street corner of the city. Probably within eyeshot of another guard nearby, too. If one of them quickly runs to go knock down a mugging, and resistance is involved, it is bound that, in the reality of things, that many would show up in the first place. It just happens that there are not exactly enough active characters to play full guards.

In the aspect of your investigation, one thing I will bring up is that most of your characters here are high level abused by the legal system, such as Dakkar, Shendar, and a possible Yanar (though I do not know what Firefan plays). When a guard comes across those races, I do not think they 'have' to investigate. One of them is a heretical fire alligator, one who basically has a holiday daily for the devil, and one that is... well, inanimate and preaching further heretical beliefs. When I played my Slizzar in crime roleplay, investigations were never such a thing because they saw a giant ugly snake with a creepy face. When I was Anii, however, the guards would give a suspicious stare, ask questions, brandish blades without using them, etc.

There also is the sake of how loud combat really is. When using magic, I can bet someone standing one hundred feet away can hear the cackle of lightning, explosion of fire, or smashing of glass. Even just the clashing of swords would do it.

There is also the news that an investigation of characters would not exactly be public, if it does happen. If only a few characters that are guards (who already work their butt off with new folk) do that, and no one knows about it, it really becomes rather insignificant to crime roleplay.

TL;DR - The city has a guard at every corner in probable eyeshot of each other, earshot if not, and there may not be investigations because... well, they are racist, and you guys are playing characters who naturally score a 1 in legal standards. Someone has to RP the NPC guards! It isn't that I fully appose this idea, I currently am just speaking what another side might say, given there so far has been none.
 
I have a counter proposal with more clarity because I disagree with the assessments made in this thread for various reasons.
  • Currently, guards can call in Meta reinforcements everywhere and for every reason, though often don't do it for smaller crime like battery, drunken disorderly behavior and public disturbances. This mostly occurs when guards fear for the lives of their characters, sometimes even incorrectly because you know, guards are often never the instigating party since committing crime is counted as instigation.
The above is obviously not clear enough. However, to limit meta calling to just maiming and abduction is too little. It presents the following issues:
  • Regalia is a police state. NPC guards actually still partially exist, we made an announcement on this a while back saying that NPC guards would intervene in any crime above pick pocketing and minor bar fights in the common districts. The fist rule was that the closer you get to the Tavern, the stricter it gets. Some backstreets are immune to this regulation.
  • It's too flat and doesn't cover patrol heaviness. For example doing something in the noble district is dumb, the HQ for the Vigilant Shield is right in there.
So, here's a counter offer:
  • Guards may call in meta reinforcements in the common district (surrounding the tavern) for anything above:
    • Bar Fights
    • Vandalism
    • Pick pocketing
  • Guards may call in meta reinforcements in the noble district for whatever reason. Excepted are scripted events.
  • Guards may never call in meta reinforcements in the Old Gods District
  • Guards may never call in meta reinforcements in the Poor District
    • Guards shouldn't even be there.
  • Guards may never call in meta reinforcements in the Sewers
    • Guards shouldn't even be there.
  • Guards may always call in meta reinforcements if they are standing within 50 blocks of the Crimson and Vigilant Shield HQ

On a quick side note though:
Sozzer said:
I would LOVE for Hiesir to be taken down
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Are you though?

I have nothing to judge on except rumor and unsubstantial assumption from other people talking past me while I'm passively listening, but to my understanding you don't actually want Hiesir to be taken down unless it's on your terms, any past attempts have resulted in a large pile of gang members coming to assist the gang leader, or people simply selectively being denied the ability to join the roleplay because they are new players.

I think the majority of the issues in translating this thread and the previous one is that people who spend the majority of their time in the Sewers attempt to apply the same roleplay technique from an IC and OOC perspective onto the above ground city. Conflict roleplay works fundamentally different above ground though, as underground, you could generally just get by power gaming or god roleplaying if something doesn't go your way, but people above the ground generally get really upset when those tactics are employed. Basically people get really anal about something they consider OP, as they prefer cooperative decision on how the roleplay should proceed as opposed to a cold war-esque arms race to whoever can pull out the biggest guns to out-Trump each other.

It certainly sets the stage for some interesting debates and discussion on how to integrate more intense crime rp into the surface, an unforeseen circumstance that obviously brings some concerns, but good hopes for increased fun and excitement in the future if we properly capitalize on it and not get bogged down in specifics.
 
MonMarty said:
I have a counter proposal with more clarity because I disagree with the assessments made in this thread for various reasons.
  • Currently, guards can call in Meta reinforcements everywhere and for every reason, though often don't do it for smaller crime like battery, drunken disorderly behavior and public disturbances. This mostly occurs when guards fear for the lives of their characters, sometimes even incorrectly because you know, guards are often never the instigating party since committing crime is counted as instigation.
The above is obviously not clear enough. However, to limit meta calling to just maiming and abduction is too little. It presents the following issues:
  • Regalia is a police state. NPC guards actually still partially exist, we made an announcement on this a while back saying that NPC guards would intervene in any crime above pick pocketing and minor bar fights in the common districts. The fist rule was that the closer you get to the Tavern, the stricter it gets. Some backstreets are immune to this regulation.
  • It's too flat and doesn't cover patrol heaviness. For example doing something in the noble district is dumb, the HQ for the Vigilant Shield is right in there.
So, here's a counter offer:
  • Guards may call in meta reinforcements in the common district (surrounding the tavern) for anything above:
    • Bar Fights
    • Vandalism
    • Pick pocketing
  • Guards may call in meta reinforcements in the noble district for whatever reason. Excepted are scripted events.
  • Guards may never call in meta reinforcements in the Old Gods District
  • Guards may never call in meta reinforcements in the Poor District
    • Guards shouldn't even be there.
  • Guards may never call in meta reinforcements in the Sewers
    • Guards shouldn't even be there.
  • Guards may always call in meta reinforcements if they are standing within 50 blocks of the Crimson and Vigilant Shield HQ

On a quick side note though:


Are you though?

I have nothing to judge on except rumor and unsubstantial assumption from other people talking past me while I'm passively listening, but to my understanding you don't actually want Hiesir to be taken down unless it's on your terms, any past attempts have resulted in a large pile of gang members coming to assist the gang leader, or people simply selectively being denied the ability to join the roleplay because they are new players.

I think the majority of the issues in translating this thread and the previous one is that people who spend the majority of their time in the Sewers attempt to apply the same roleplay technique from an IC and OOC perspective onto the above ground city. Conflict roleplay works fundamentally different above ground though, as underground, you could generally just get by power gaming or god roleplaying if something doesn't go your way, but people above the ground generally get really upset when those tactics are employed. Basically people get really anal about something they consider OP, as they prefer cooperative decision on how the roleplay should proceed as opposed to a cold war-esque arms race to whoever can pull out the biggest guns to out-Trump each other.

It certainly sets the stage for some interesting debates and discussion on how to integrate more intense crime rp into the surface, an unforeseen circumstance that obviously brings some concerns, but good hopes for increased fun and excitement in the future if we properly capitalize on it and not get bogged down in specifics.
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Click to shrink...
Yes
 
  • "Some backstreets are immune to this regulation." is there some way of knowing which ones?
So, here's a counter offer:
  • "Guards may call in meta reinforcements in the common district (surrounding the tavern) for anything above:
    • Bar Fights
    • Vandalism
    • Pick pocketing" maybe have one condition on this be that so long as it's a good distance (100+ blocks maybe?) from the tavern, they need to have found it on a proper patrol, rather than being messaged to come help their non-guard bud. this is just regarding the beginning of the situation - once it's started, in this sort of area, that sounds quite fine.
  • "Guards may call in meta reinforcements in the noble district for whatever reason. Excepted are scripted events." fair enough, it is the noble district after all.
  • "Guards may never call in meta reinforcements in the Old Gods District" yep.
  • "Guards may never call in meta reinforcements in the Poor District
    • Guards shouldn't even be there." yep.
  • "Guards may never call in meta reinforcements in the Sewers
    • Guards shouldn't even be there." yep.
  • "Guards may always call in meta reinforcements if they are standing within 50 blocks of the Crimson and Vigilant Shield HQ" 100% agree on this one, if you're doing something like that within that sort of distance of one of their HQs, either those places would be the targets or you're just damn blind.

"I have nothing to judge on except rumor and unsubstantial assumption from other people talking past me while I'm passively listening, but to my understanding you don't actually want Hiesir to be taken down unless it's on your terms, any past attempts have resulted in a large pile of gang members coming to assist the gang leader, or people simply selectively being denied the ability to join the roleplay because they are new players."

i'm fine with it so long as it's not through either throwing randoms at me out of nowhere without any kind of mention made to me or mass meta. if someone would actually plot and plan and properly go through it, then i would happily have a proper outcome, be it her forced out of regalia or killed. for example the crimsons were planning an assault on her base, and once we worked things out, i was actually thinking it'd force her out of the city - although i'm not sure what's happened to that whole thing.



"I think the majority of the issues in translating this thread and the previous one is that people who spend the majority of their time in the Sewers attempt to apply the same roleplay technique from an IC and OOC perspective onto the above ground city. Conflict roleplay works fundamentally different above ground though, as underground, you could generally just get by power gaming or god roleplaying if something doesn't go your way, but people above the ground generally get really upset when those tactics are employed. Basically people get really anal about something they consider OP, as they prefer cooperative decision on how the roleplay should proceed as opposed to a cold war-esque arms race to whoever can pull out the biggest guns to out-Trump each other."
the problem with this is half the time people who see crime rp assumes anything they do will be powergaming and refuses to let them do anything without jumping to that. it doesn't matter how well-justified my actions are - they're crime rp on the surface, then a guard can and will shoot them down if they pose a threat to them. i have never - admittedly with a very small number of exceptions - gained ground against a guard in a fight, no matter how reasonable that outcome was. and on the rare occasion that it looks to be going that way, five more pop up to assist them. the closest i come to "winning" against guards is sometimes managing to run away, and often not even that, with the exception of a few incidents with the crimsons and such where it has quite honestly been lovely because they don't assume my only goal in an rp is to hurt people.
 
I need to run this by some Lore 3's for formality sake before I Finalize anything.
 
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