Archived Grief (are Factions At Risk?)

[Dworvin]

Pleas read the entire thread and choose agree or disagree.

Current Rules :
Steal valuable items such as: Emeralds, Diamonds, Gold, Iron, Redstone or Bookshelves. We expect you to be reasonable.

We know that humans get upset and some are greedy.
The question is if we should allow actions based off of these feelings to be.

We know that their are faction hoppers that steel as much as they possibbly can get away with.

We know that sometimes their are issues like war and internal conflicts that make faction members leave the group but they also sometimes take as much as they can get away with.

These things can happen rather often depending on situations and factions can't defend them selves from any of it.

Setting permitions to not allow members to do this or that and turn the faction into a prison is a good way to have a [censored] faction.

I propose that Grief in anyway should not be accepted inside the faction.

 

[krios41]

We know that their are faction hoppers that steel as much as they possibbly can get away with.
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i had that very recently. the most importand thing that was stolen was 34 emerald blocks. we convinced him to give everything back but he lost it so now he is repaying slowly. i fully agre with you as such a thing would prevent that.

 

[TechPac]

Faction hopping thieves can be avoided if you dont promote new players to member til you can trust them, thats the entire reason there is a recruit level in the factions plugin now. No offense but if someone is not utilizing this, that is their own fault.

 

[Dworvin]

Well the point of the thread was not exactly that although that is a big contributor.
what I was really aiming to protect factions against was angry members leaving the faction.

 

[Alj23]

Current Rules :
Steal valuable items such as: Emeralds, Diamonds, Gold, Iron, Redstone or Bookshelves. We expect you to be reasonable.

We know that humans get upset and some are greedy.
The question is if we should allow actions based off of these feelings to be.

We know that their are faction hoppers that steel as much as they possibbly can get away with.

We know that sometimes their are issues like war and internal conflicts that make faction members leave the group but they also sometimes take as much as they can get away with.

These things can happen rather often depending on situations and factions can't defend them selves from any of it.

Setting permitions to not allow members to do this or that and turn the faction into a prison is a good way to have a [censored] faction.

I propose that Grief in anyway should not be accepted inside the faction.

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To avoid said issue, just configure your /f access accordingly. The easiest way to do this is to use /f access [faction name] no. This means your faction, the "host faction" does not have access to editing faction land or using containers, buttons, levers etc. You can then /f access p [player name] to their according chunks. Very important though: When said player leaves the faction for whatever reason, you need to remember to remove their access using the same command: /f access p [player name]. If you do not do this, they will still have their access, and can use it even if not in the faction.

For example, I join your faction. I am a recruit. You do not yet trust me, so I shouldn't have access to everything immediately. You can /f access p "Alj23" to my assigned chunk (house I would imagine) so I would be able to edit my house, but not the terrain around me.

To avoid grief of things such as emerald blocks (portals) iron and gold blocks (repair and salvage,) simple /cprivate them to yourself, or whoever donated the blocks.

 

[Kikopuz]

I think a rule saying "Griefing in anyway is not allowed inside faction land" is better and so much easier for faction leaders and officers than using the /f access and recruitment system. Our faction is forced to keep new people as recruit until we trust them. But when someone isn't trusted and is still a recruit, he/she can't do anything for the faction while inside. I still remember how boring it can be if you don't have access to anything inside your own faction.
Our faction tried to counter that by making a huge underground area for the recruits and giving them access to plots of land to build their own temporary homes. But still the question remains: When can you trust a person? This is the internet, people lie. If I was a faction thief and knew that there was a faction with unprotected stuff somewhere, I would try my best to be trusted. Our recruits can simply role play as loyal/good/trusted until he/she gets promoted.

And yes, if you have a recruitment area like we do the /f access p <player> stuff can be a very tedious process..

 

[Jemsbe]

Err.. isn't this why the recruit rank excists? Don't promote anyone to Member unless you trust them and simply only allow them to open doors and use levers and buttons. Problem solved no?

 

[Dworvin]

@Jamescl what me and @Kikopuz are trying to say is that the system is not safe.
If I was a faction thief. I can promis you 100% that I could rob you blind no matter how hard your security is using my charm and talents on massive.
If you think greifers are troles well faction hoppers are just the same.
The server is filled with naive people and those are the best kinds, lets try and protect them better by changing this rule.
their is nothing worse then getting back stabbed by someone you trusted (ive been their).

 

[Jemsbe]

@Dworvin You really couldn't... I've made smart use of the /f perm command allowing only officers to do anything.. All recruits and members are allowed to use is buttons.

 

[Kikopuz]

@Dworvin You really couldn't... I've made smart use of the /f perm command allowing only officers to do anything.. All recruits and members are allowed to use is buttons.

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You mean the 8-man faction you're in now? Of which just two are members, the rest officers? If so, you can't really compare that to 50+ factions. How do you expect us to keep all those members happy if we took away all their rights within the faction?

What would be an argument against the no-grief rule inside factions, other than the "you can use /f perm/f access etc" argument? Would the staff be too busy?

PS: What if the faction thief becomes an officer? I even know one case where a faction officer unclaimed all land.. and he was trusted too.

 

[Jemsbe]

Wrong faction.. I'm talking about my main faction.. Either way, you can easily control things with /f perm. If an officer becomes a theif.. you really need to find better officers and/or friends

 

[Dworvin]

I think this post needs more opinions from different people. (just turning into an argument that goes round)(this is not debating)(I am not interested in an argument with staff when they are not bringing up new points.)
this kind of thing should go to a vote anyway.

If only the staff get to choose what is best for the server we would have a very crap server anyway.
With this post we have a tie anyway with 3 people stating that its good the way it is and 3 stating that it should change and its rather small change of just changing the text in the rules and taking applications where people are having the materials striped from their builds, I am not talking about taking stuff from chests I am talking about quite literally defacing builds to get the valuables out of it. Have you seen Iron Hall? Would you like to see builds that epic? Currently you can't because theirs emerald and diamond and iron galore! all over the damn place.
Seriously who are we protecting hear? who are we encouraging to stay on the server with this rule? Is it the naive friendly leaders and players? or is the scumbag players that want to get fortune by stepping on others?
Also if you think I am posting this because I was grief by a member then your wrong because it has not happen yet but I can put my hand in the fire saying that it has happened and will keep happening to others and most likely will happen to me some day specially now that my faction builds are actually starting to be worth something because we are trying to make a nice dwarf build.

 

[Alj23]

You mean the 8-man faction you're in now? Of which just two are members, the rest officers? If so, you can't really compare that to 50+ factions. How do you expect us to keep all those members happy if we took away all their rights within the faction?

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If you're running a 50+ player faction, and you haven't yet figured out the most sensible way to restrict and assign access to varying chunks to different members, then you shouldn't be running that faction in my opinion. Also, how are you expected to keep a faction happy if you didn't assign /f access correctly, and now you've got people greifing.

Using a combination of /f access and /f perm is the most efficient way to protect your faction.

 

[TechPac]

The issue is, you guys want there to be no in-faction theft, however that is and has been allowed for the longest time for theft is not and shouldnt be something thats illegal on the server. Many people have made clear suggestions on how this can bs prevented, yes they are not all easy ways, but if you dont want to put in the effort to take advantage of these suggestions then personally you deserve the theft.

 

[Jemsbe]

.
If only the staff get to choose what is best for the server we would have a very crap server anyway.

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You say you don't want an argument with staff and then this is what you say after? If anything the staff choose most of the things for the server so in essence ou are saying we have a bad server?

 

[Kikopuz]

Wrong faction.. I'm talking about my main faction.. Either way, you can easily control things with /f perm. If an officer becomes a theif.. you really need to find better officers and/or friends

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The "find better officers" argument isn't really a strong argument when it's clear that - unless you know them very well irl - people can easily deceive you for a long time without you having the slightest idea. And when you do find out, it's probably already too late. Even if it wasn't all planned, things can go very wrong. Like in the case of the officer unclaiming all, that was an impromptu decision.

What I'm saying is basically: Evil people be evil.. especially on the internet.

If you're running a 50+ player faction, and you haven't yet figured out the most sensible way to restrict and assign access to varying chunks to different members, then you shouldn't be running that faction in my opinion. Also, how are you expected to keep a faction happy if you didn't assign /f access correctly, and now you've got people greifing.
Using a combination of /f access and /f perm is the most efficient way to protect your faction.

Click to shrink...

You're assuming that we haven't figured out a (sensible) way to restrict and assign access to chunks. We know how it works. Dworvin and I just think that there is a better way to avoid all kinds of trouble. I personally find it tedious, inefficient and sometimes dangerous to use /f access commands. Unless there is a way to use /f access manually, I agree with you that it would be efficient (just as tedious though). And by 'manually' I mean: You can use the /f access on single individual blocks inside your faction, not just whole chunks. From what I know /f access only applies to chunks. And that basically forces you to build on 16x16 plots.. How is that efficient?

The issue is, you guys want there to be no in-faction theft, however that is and has been allowed for the longest time for theft is not and shouldnt be something thats illegal on the server. Many people have made clear suggestions on how this can bs prevented, yes they are not all easy ways, but if you dont want to put in the effort to take advantage of these suggestions then personally you deserve the theft.

Click to shrink...

It's not about theft per se. It's about evil faction thieves/griefers. I get why stealing stuff from unproteced chests in the wilderness is allowed. But once you're inside a faction you should feel safe. Faction thieves abuse that trust (in a way it's kind of metagaming) so we are forced to use annoying commands. You're saying "This is the way it is, go with it or lose". Dworvin is simply suggesting something. We know how to protect chunks with /f access etc etc. We already put alot of effort in protecting our factions.


I'm curious, because I asked before and haven't got an answer yet: What is an actual argument against a 'no griefing inside faction policy'? Other than the "There is already a way to avoid that" argument, which I think is arbitrary.

 

[Kikopuz]

You say you don't want an argument with staff and then this is what you say after? If anything the staff choose most of the things for the server so in essence ou are saying we have a bad server?

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I think that's just a poor choice of words on Dworvin's part. It's not like the staff just do what they please. We all know you listen to our wishes and concerns.

Anyway, let's not make a big deal out of this. Like I said, Dworvin was just proposing an idea. I agree, with him. Some of you don't. I would just like to hear why.

 

[yendor46]

You're assuming that we haven't figured out a (sensible) way to restrict and assign access to chunks. We know how it works. Dworvin and I just think that there is a better way to avoid all kinds of trouble. I personally find it tedious, inefficient and sometimes dangerous to use /f access commands. Unless there is a way to use /f access manually, I agree with you that it would be efficient (just as tedious though). And by 'manually' I mean: You can use the /f access on single individual blocks inside your faction, not just whole chunks. From what I know /f access only applies to chunks. And that basically forces you to build on 16x16 plots.. How is that efficient?

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MassiveCraft has 2 plugins to prevent grief. Factions, which protects areas by chunk, and LWC, which protects by block.

I'm curious, because I asked before and haven't got an answer yet: What is an actual argument against a 'no griefing inside faction policy'? Other than the "There is already a way to avoid that" argument, which I think is arbitrary.

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The simple reason that there is not a rule against griefing inside factions is that it would be impossible to enforce fairly.

Imagine a faction officer that tells a faction member to tear down a house. With this rule, that faction member would be banned, when all they were doing was following the orders of their officer. So then every member must screenshot every order from someone that involves breaking of blocks, to protect themselves from getting banned. What if the person gives you the order through Skype or TeamSpeak. This would imply that these forms of communication would not be acceptable, and the order would have to be given only through in-game chat. Now assume that this rule would be exploited to the same extent as people faction hop to steal stuff. This would produce a server with a large number of innocent banned players, and a number of rich faction owners who used the bans to steal the player's stuff.

It is a much more realistic expectation to expect faction owners to learn how to protect their factions, than it would be to expect every single person who joined the server to know that they needed to screenshot every order to break blocks within a faction, and that no blocks could be broken inside a faction without a screenshot of an order or they could be banned.

 

[Catlin_1130]

Well the point of the thread was not exactly that although that is a big contributor.
what I was really aiming to protect factions against was angry members leaving the faction.

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our faction does not allow people to place or break blocks unless given specific access to their chunk or a chunk they work at, the rest of it is LWC handled and players respectively take their items so no one has to deal with ticket delays, most of it is mutual agreements, and those who do not follow them are swiftly hunted down, or a bounty is placed on their head... sure its alot of work, but so far things flow smoothly and we have only had to put a bounty on alligatorman2003's head....

 

[Grailen]

our faction does not allow people to place or break blocks unless given specific access to their chunk or a chunk they work at, the rest of it is LWC handled and players respectively take their items so no one has to deal with ticket delays, most of it is mutual agreements, and those who do not follow them are swiftly hunted down, or a bounty is placed on their head... sure its alot of work, but so far things flow smoothly and we have only had to put a bounty on alligatorman2003's head....

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Way to necro this.

 

[Catlin_1130]

Way to necro this.

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"necro"...?

 

[Made_By]

I think overall the griefing issue needs to be addressed. People are easily getting away with griefing in any circumstance with minimum punishments. I mean someone wiped out the entire front portion of steadfast's old castle and was only punished with a 1 week jail.

 

[Zero_00]

Can honestly say I've never had a problem with a new member greifing. If you set up f access accordingly its very hard for members to get into things they should not be.