Archived Flywater, My One True Love!

[CommanderCatbug]

Can we please discuss the recently removed trait "flywater"? From what I understand the overall reason for it's removal was because PvP'ers were getting annoyed that combat was hard or not reliable at flight speed. However, I don't think this argument is even close to enough for the trait to be entirely removed. Here's why:

First, this server has more role players and general players/non-PvP'ers that our voice (which is fairly unanimously against the removal of the trait) should outweigh the complaints of PvP'ers who happen to not like one small inconvenience that it causes them.

Second, my Maiar Roleplay is totally dependant upon being able to explore the vast oceans and protect my under water home, but without flywater, I am forced to reserve myself to becoming a bottom feeder! (Depth Strider III + Water Breathing + NightVision). The fact is I play as a shark person, and sharks move very very fast in the water. This is totally cramping my RP style!

Third, I believe that I, as a water creature, should have a huge tactical advantage in water against any other race. Yet, without the ability to swim swiftly, really no matter what I do, I have no advantage at all in the water when it comes to combat. Furthermore, Being a fish person, I think it is entirely... ENTIRELY... fair for me to see that I am losing a fight on land and retreat to the water, and if my pursuer should choose to chase me, if he is not a Maiar, he should be easy pray within my domain, but this is definitely not the case.

I, along with many in the community (I state that as fact based upon lots of in game conversations) am really upset that I am no longer allowed to build flywater into my kit. Being a shark person was a dream, it was like jumping into a new world and I loved it! It was a critical feature in the roleplay/faction crossover environment and I'm incredibly sad (after over 3 years being on this server, to see it go)

Let's talk solutions that will make everyone happy! I would love to hear some insight from the PvP'ers in the community, as well as some of the server administrators on their thoughts and what they are currently doing relating to this issue.

I propose, that flywater be brought back. I would be willing to pay a higher trait point cost for it (It used to be +50 to have in your kit). It's hard for me as a skillful underwater warrior to accept the trait be disabled during PvP, despite the server not exactly being perfect for it, I have had tons of epic battles in the oceans of Aloria, and I'd love to write about many more, but I would like to ask the PvP'ers this... If you were in a situation where a player who had flywater equipped fled from you into the ocean, or effectively outmaneuvered you within the water and killed you. Would you really be that upset? I ask you this because I know many PvP'ers were happy about the removal, but is that small improvement from your perspective really worth the pain and suffering that it has caused for us Maiar Role Players and Explorers?

Please give me your thoughts guys! I don't want anyone to be hateful, but I'd love for everyone to advocate for their side and propose solutions that they believe will improve the situation to make everyone happy, or at least make more people happy than current amount.

Remember everyone, we are a community, we are a team, and together we can make our voices and opinions mean something.

#BRINGBACKFLYWATER!!!

Love, Ren

 

[FireFan96]

I'm going to list off a few of the PvP complaints of flywater (correct me if I'm wrong guys):

• Flywater v Flywater was basically jousting in the water, where maybe you landed a hit. But by the time you made a second hit, the opponent already got their heart back, so it's a never ending cycle.
• shooting somebody with flywater is next to impossible unless you're really lucky. They move too fast to hit.
• some may just use flywater as the runaway tactic in a fight. Since it's a pain in the ass to hit them, they can get away quickly and tp to safety.

There's probably better points than these, but nonetheless shows some of the PvP attitude towards flywater.

Now, onto the issue that is present: very bad water travelling. Surface travel isn't that bad; there's boats for that. But for deep diving and avoiding the hundreds of guardians trying to kill you, it's a pain in the ass. I personally had flywater in my build for fast travel purposes both in survival and in RP. The removal of it has been a pain for me to get used to, and I still hate having to travel to spawn every time I need to head to a district on the other side of the map, wait 10 seconds, and then wait for the tp lag to stop before moving along.

I'd like to see flywater back, but the same problems would just come back. So I've just given up on water travel, and resorted to living on my island in the middle of Hyarroc.

 

[Zacatero]

I think that adding back flywater along with the [weapon]vulnerable traits would be good. If they made flywater cost more points then the negative vulnerable traits would be there to counteract that. And since those are vulnerable traits then it might help get the PVP community on board since to have the flywater they would perhaps need to be vulnerable to PVP

 

[Gabauchi]

is it possible to make it so putting on flywater removes your armor

 

[EmpressEvie]

Third, I believe that I, as a water creature, should have a huge tactical advantage in water against any other race. Yet, without the ability to swim swiftly, really no matter what I do, I have no advantage at all in the water when it comes to combat. Furthermore, Being a fish person, I think it is entirely... ENTIRELY... fair for me to see that I am losing a fight on land and retreat to the water, and if my pursuer should choose to chase me, if he is not a Maiar, he should be easy pray within my domain, but this is definitely not the case.

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I'm a little confused as to why the lack of flywater is such a hindrance to your roleplay. You don't actually do the moves during combat, but use emotes. All you would need to do is say MarytheMaiar: jumped into the water swimming away very swiftly.+ And even if you did jump in the water and actually use flywater to swim away you would likely be too far to actually be in RP range.

As someone who used to be active in the PvP scene, flywater was far more frustrating as a pvper than the lack of it is now. I go looting a lot, meaning I travel all over the maps. The lack of flywater was frustrating at first, but equipping Elytra & a punch II bow is much faster than flywater ever was. Remembering the frustration that came along with people abusing flywater during PvP makes me understand why it is gone and why it should stay gone.

 

[Zacatero]

Remembering the frustration that came along with people abusing flywater during PvP makes me understand why it is gone and why it should stay gone.

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FlyWater was only 50 points. What if the points were raised to say 75 or 100?

 

[FireFan96]

I'm a little confused as to why the lack of flywater is such a hindrance to your roleplay. You don't actually do the moves during combat, but use emotes. All you would need to do is say MarytheMaiar: jumped into the water swimming away very swiftly.+ And even if you did jump in the water and actually use flywater to swim away you would likely be too far to actually be in RP range.

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I've actually had to use Minecraft mechanics in RP one time (since I guess you can't grab a guy if you're 3 blocks away or whatever...) so I see where the flywater comes from. It could also be extended to the reason why people use props and MPM in roleplay: more immersion.

Flywater also has the benefit of allowing somebody to hover while they type, instead of sinking to the bottom out of hearing range. So I suppose in once sense flywater helps with RP immersion.

 

[EmpressEvie]

FlyWater was only 50 points. What if the points were raised to say 75 or 100?

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I feel like it would still be abused, even if the points were higher. I think the only way to keep it from being how it used to be with Flywater & pvp is to somehow have it disabled when PvP is active.

Snip.

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Those are really good points, I can definitely see how it could be used in RP now. Though, I still see the reasons it was removed in the first place, having more detriment than the inability to hover in water.

 

[65jes89]

It is planned to be re-added at some point, but to tie into the combat flag system so that it is disabled out of combat, from my understanding.

Please don't try and make the argument to allow pvp with flywater on, there's no such thing as "a skillful underwater warrior."

 

[Lizmun]

there's no such thing as "a skillful underwater warrior."

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Um.

 

[Zacatero]

Um.

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whats confusing about it?

 

[Lizmun]

whats confusing about it?

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No no. You don't get it. I am a skilled underwater warrior. Check your privilege.

 

[Zacatero]

Check your privilege

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And what privilege would that be? My simple confusion on the two letter utterence that was your reply?

 

[Lizmun]

And what privilege would that be? My simple confusion on the two letter utterence that was your reply?

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Honestly I think the joke went completely over your head. Now I have to explain it, which is unfortunate.

The quoting of Jes, who is a good friend of mine, and my following 'Um.' was meant to point myself out, call myself out even. And was an attempt to establish an implication that I believed myself to be a skilled fighter in the water (Which is untrue, seeing as I do not PVP at all, and instead, roleplay.)

The second response was simply a less direct way (Less direct than this post, at least) of me trying to tell you that my first comment was supposed to be funny, and you should rate it funny.

because I like funny ratings.

 

[Zacatero]

second response was simply a less direct way (Less direct than this post, at least) of me trying to tell you that my first comment was supposed to be funny, and you should rate it funny

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Ya that was extremely indirect.

 

[CommanderCatbug]

Ok, you guys are kind of getting off point. We're not gaining much from arguing. To address your point that there is no such thing as a skilled water fighter, that is definitely false. I have, over 3 years, become really really good at controlling my character in the water (provided flywater is available). When it comes to a direct roleplay application, you cant do a ton with combat RP, it is hard to make it work especially in a no hard rules survival environment. My argument stands for the rp/survival crossover environment that we call factions worlds. In this environment, if you encounter a Maiar, and you are not one, but you decide to go and take on a Maiar (whether words or spoken or not) you should be at a disadvantage if you chase that Maiar into the water, this just intuitively makes sense. For example, when you're in a swamp, full of crocodiles, you do your best to stay on dry land or in a boat. If you fall in the water, you're likely croc food. It makes sense... Therefore the idea that a Maiar should have command over his or her domain when facing creatures not natural to the water (any other RP race) is a completely reasonable argument. If you as a PvP'er are afraid of the water, because you know that the Maiar you were just fighting jumped in and now has a big advantage, then you wouldn't go in! It all makes perfect sense. Additionally, I do agree that flywater should possibly cost more. This would allow players to take it knowing full well that they will also have combat weaknesses.

The flip side to this PvP argument is that people who jump in the water do so strategically, they see a PvP player loaded with positive combat stats (on land of course) and they know that they are at a huge strategical disadvantage.

The "flywater shouldn't be allowed during PvP" argument is similar this theoretical example I'm going to give.

THEORETICAL EXAMPLE : I play in the survival worlds as a Shark Maiar, with the traits flywater, waterbreathing, nightvision, and several combat weaknesses such as axevulnerable, and archeryvulnerable. Then I go up on land and get slaughtered by all of the PvP'ers who use Speed2. So I clearly have this disadvantage right? What are my options? Well my first option is to try to lure those people into the water where I have the advantage, my other option is to raise hell in the community, saying that Speed2 is totally not a fair trait, it makes it so that its impossible for me to have a good fight on land and I always lose to all of those speedy quick land PvP'ers. Then of course, if I take that option, I push for speed2 to be removed because it makes fighting on land unfair for people like me who have water oriented builds.

Now lets think about that whole argument I just made up... It sounds totally stupid right? Like really really stupid! The real solution is for me to stay in my domain and take on the fights that I know I can win! When it comes to PvP in the rp/survival crossover worlds (factions worlds) the same concept should apply. If you build your character in such a way that he/she is a total PvP monster (on land) then you should be able to dominate on land, and no one should have any right to tell you that you shouldn't be able to dominate on land. I personally would never do that! If you have your traits set up so that you are a total beast, then I will run, even so, you will probably still catch up and kill me, oh well thats just the way it goes haha!

So, when the main portion of the PvP community bands together to speak out against flywater, simply because it makes it harder for them to slaughter everything they see, it totally makes things unfair to the PvP'ers who build their characters, such that they have an advantage in the water. (Of course it also negatively affects all of the people who just use the trait as an exploratory tool, or an immersive tool, but we covered that)

I think we should celebrate eachother's different playstyles! It's these different ideas and preferences we all have that make MassiveCraft an awesome and unique community! We all love to play a different way, and it's important to realize that you can't win them all, but that is no reason to protest in the times that you don't win. After all, there is no huge protest against you, making an awesome, unstoppable war orc, and why would there be? It's a cool concept that you enjoy! Have fun and kill stuff, but don't force me to change the way I play, effectively making my play experience less fun, in a selfish effort to make your experience better.

Disclaimer: I agree that there are issues involving flywater in the situation of PvP in the ocean where both of the opponents possess the trait, I realize that this form of combat is sketchy and maybe not super enjoyable for anyone, but I do not think that the solution to that problem is to remove the trait all together.

Wow, that was a long thing there wasnt it? Haha!

So, please guys let me know what you think about the argument I've presented, Are there holes in my logic? Is there something I'm missing or something that you just don't agree with? Let me know, I really want to learn from you guys and your perspectives.

Thanks so much for reading!

 

[65jes89]

[

Ok, you guys are kind of getting off point. We're not gaining much from arguing. To address your point that there is no such thing as a skilled water fighter, that is definitely false. I have, over 3 years, become really really good at controlling my character in the water (provided flywater is available). When it comes to a direct roleplay application, you cant do a ton with combat RP, it is hard to make it work especially in a no hard rules survival environment. My argument stands for the rp/survival crossover environment that we call factions worlds. In this environment, if you encounter a Maiar, and you are not one, but you decide to go and take on a Maiar (whether words or spoken or not) you should be at a disadvantage if you chase that Maiar into the water, this just intuitively makes sense. For example, when you're in a swamp, full of crocodiles, you do your best to stay on dry land or in a boat. If you fall in the water, you're likely croc food. It makes sense... Therefore the idea that a Maiar should have command over his or her domain when facing creatures not natural to the water (any other RP race) is a completely reasonable argument. If you as a PvP'er are afraid of the water, because you know that the Maiar you were just fighting jumped in and now has a big advantage, then you wouldn't go in! It all makes perfect sense. Additionally, I do agree that flywater should possibly cost more. This would allow players to take it knowing full well that they will also have combat weaknesses.

The flip side to this PvP argument is that people who jump in the water do so strategically, they see a PvP player loaded with positive combat stats (on land of course) and they know that they are at a huge strategical disadvantage.

The "flywater shouldn't be allowed during PvP" argument is similar this theoretical example I'm going to give.

THEORETICAL EXAMPLE : I play in the survival worlds as a Shark Maiar, with the traits flywater, waterbreathing, nightvision, and several combat weaknesses such as axevulnerable, and archeryvulnerable. Then I go up on land and get slaughtered by all of the PvP'ers who use Speed2. So I clearly have this disadvantage right? What are my options? Well my first option is to try to lure those people into the water where I have the advantage, my other option is to raise hell in the community, saying that Speed2 is totally not a fair trait, it makes it so that its impossible for me to have a good fight on land and I always lose to all of those speedy quick land PvP'ers. Then of course, if I take that option, I push for speed2 to be removed because it makes fighting on land unfair for people like me who have water oriented builds.

Now lets think about that whole argument I just made up... It sounds totally stupid right? Like really really stupid! The real solution is for me to stay in my domain and take on the fights that I know I can win! When it comes to PvP in the rp/survival crossover worlds (factions worlds) the same concept should apply. If you build your character in such a way that he/she is a total PvP monster (on land) then you should be able to dominate on land, and no one should have any right to tell you that you shouldn't be able to dominate on land. I personally would never do that! If you have your traits set up so that you are a total beast, then I will run, even so, you will probably still catch up and kill me, oh well thats just the way it goes haha!

So, when the main portion of the PvP community bands together to speak out against flywater, simply because it makes it harder for them to slaughter everything they see, it totally makes things unfair to the PvP'ers who build their characters, such that they have an advantage in the water. (Of course it also negatively affects all of the people who just use the trait as an exploratory tool, or an immersive tool, but we covered that)

I think we should celebrate eachother's different playstyles! It's these different ideas and preferences we all have that make MassiveCraft an awesome and unique community! We all love to play a different way, and it's important to realize that you can't win them all, but that is no reason to protest in the times that you don't win. After all, there is no huge protest against you, making an awesome, unstoppable war orc, and why would there be? It's a cool concept that you enjoy! Have fun and kill stuff, but don't force me to change the way I play, effectively making my play experience less fun, in a selfish effort to make your experience better.

Disclaimer: I agree that there are issues involving flywater in the situation of PvP in the ocean where both of the opponents possess the trait, I realize that this form of combat is sketchy and maybe not super enjoyable for anyone, but I do not think that the solution to that problem is to remove the trait all together.

Wow, that was a long thing there wasnt it? Haha!

So, please guys let me know what you think about the argument I've presented, Are there holes in my logic? Is there something I'm missing or something that you just don't agree with? Let me know, I really want to learn from you guys and your perspectives.

Thanks so much for reading!

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Frankly I didn't read half of this post. The first couple paragraphs were pretty much lacking any logic so I just skimmed through the rest.

Flywater does not require any skill. Period. You can not kill anyone with flywater. Period. I have been involved in a fight in flywater which lasted literally over an hour. I don't care how much "skill" you have, if you run in a circle with flywater on you're not going to die. It's the same thing as trying to pvp while flying in creative. It just doesn't work. Minecraft isn't some space shooter, the pvp side of it revolves primarily, and almost entirely, around melee. When you're moving at 15 blocks per second and can change direction immediately with almost no loss of momentum, you're not going to be able to hit someone. If you're in the pvp/survival worlds and are trying to pvp with your mair traits, then frankly you're just an idiot. It doesn't take a genius to figure out it doesn't work. Pvp has nothing to do with roleplay, nor should it. It's the same thing as saying "I'm a big orc and you're a little <insert whatever the squirrel things are called here> so I automatically win. It doesn't make sense. It's unbalanced, and it makes life hella boring for the pvpers, whom this primarily affects. If you want to roleplay as a mair and for some reason absolutely require flywater (which I've never understood why traits are needed for people to sit there and type), then just wait a bit until cayorion incorporates the pvp flags into traits and you can use flywater as a peaceful mair villager all you want.

Pvpers are slaughtering you? Cool. Try not using that mair build and trying to win by flying in circles around your opponent until a whirlpool is created, and instead use like potions and god weapons. Or roleplay hiring some mercenaries to do it for you.

Pvpers not accpeting other playstyles has nothing to do with this. It's a pvp issue, not a roleplay one. Flywater pvp is not pvp. There is no skill involved, and if you tell yourself something else you're kidding yourself. If you really want to, you can buy a test server, give you and a friend /fly, some pots, god armor, god weps, etc., and see how long it takes you to kill one another. I'll see you next october.

Ok, you guys are kind of getting off point. We're not gaining much from arguing.

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Also, I fail to see how people arguing with you/each other is getting off the point.

 

[Beetletoes]

Maybe Flywater could be at disabled when you enter pvp? I don't know what pvp active really does but could it be tweaked so flywater is disabled once pvp active and enabled when you aren't fighting? This is a suggestion from someone who doesn't pvp so this probably does have lots of issues.

 

[65jes89]

Maybe Flywater could be at disabled when you enter pvp? I don't know what pvp active really does but could it be tweaked so flywater is disabled once pvp active and enabled when you aren't fighting? This is a suggestion from someone who doesn't pvp so this probably does have lots of issues.

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Last I heard from staff that was the current plan for it, just has to be done by cayorion. I'd still personally prefer it was disabled period, but having it based on combat flags is fine.

 

[Zacatero]

Last I heard from staff that was the current plan for it, just has to be done by cayorion. I'd still personally prefer it was disabled period, but having it based on combat flags is fine.

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So from what i understand its ^^^ that... but its also gonna be time consuming to link those up from what i heard and i dont think its high up on the staff to-do list.

 

[MonMarty]

Flywater is an artificial mechanic roleplayers use to avoid being killed, artificial because it doesn't actually require any skill, you're just protected by server latency. Most of the time hit detection does not work at flywater speeds which is why it is not viable in PVP whatsoever.

We understand some survival value of it however, and the plan was to make it non-pvp enabled, but I think I can safely say flywater will never be used for PVP again. It is a feature in PVP that discriminates against people with bad connections or who do not live in Texas. Which is a pretty large portion of the server.

 

[Gabauchi]

who do not live in Texas

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to be fair, texas has the majority of earth's population

 

[Beetletoes]

to be fair, texas has the majority of earth's population

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[GoodDreamer]

View attachment 96900

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Wait....so Texas is inside of another, larger Texas?

Does that mean that the smaller Texas is subservient to the larger one?

If so, is there another Texas? Does it encompass the greater Texas we see before us?

If that is the case, then is it unreasonable to say that there is an unending chain of Texas's around us, and that they are secretly all that is and ever will be?

-starts saying nightly prayers to Texas-

 

[Beetletoes]

Wait....so Texas is inside of another, larger Texas?

Does that mean that the smaller Texas is subservient to the larger one?

If so, is there another Texas? Does it encompass the greater Texas we see before us?

If that is the case, then is it unreasonable to say that there is an unending chain of Texas's around us, and that they are secretly all that is and ever will be?

-starts saying nightly prayers to Texas-

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Yes. And Texas is bigger than that.

 

[Lizmun]

As a Texan, I can confirm everything about Texas is true.

 

[Conflee]

I had a suggestion to maybe help with the RP: Instead of FlyWater, add something like Float? This would at least add back some of the functionality to RPing in water, where your character will not sink unless you hold shift. The speed wont change- moving is normal swim speed or maybe slightly faster, but in general it would just be there so you can type in water.

 

[Knyxo]

I had a suggestion to maybe help with the RP: Instead of FlyWater, add something like Float? This would at least add back some of the functionality to RPing in water, where your character will not sink unless you hold shift. The speed wont change- moving is normal swim speed or maybe slightly faster, but in general it would just be there so you can type in water.

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No reason to do anything more complicated than this honestly.

 

[65jes89]

I had a suggestion to maybe help with the RP: Instead of FlyWater, add something like Float? This would at least add back some of the functionality to RPing in water, where your character will not sink unless you hold shift. The speed wont change- moving is normal swim speed or maybe slightly faster, but in general it would just be there so you can type in water.

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Pretty sure it would actually be easier to just tie in the pvp flag.