Archived Economy Needs Stability

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Aeyris

Aeyris

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Unfortunately, I can't offer reliable suggestions to this issue at this time because I haven't thought it through in wholesome manner. But the economy needs stability - Values of goods flip flop on a daily basis. I'm sure others have noticed.

I propose that staff lower faction taxes, doing this could spur people to spend their hard earned regal that they are currently hording(or find some other way to get people spending money}. This increase in purchasing and trade would increase competition between respective firms on the server. The resulting very competitive market would let consumers decide the price of goods. Furthermore, overtime the spending bubble would pop and at that point we would have reset the economy.

Aeyris
 
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Lowering taxes might have the opposite effect: since taxes are one of the big money sinks (in addition to /as rent) and you'd be at least initially decreasing the amount of regals that go into that sink, and so the short term effect would be to put more regals in the economy.

Now maybe as you say, that would spur people to buy more land, and *maybe* the amount of land they'd buy would be enough to offset the lower taxes, but that seems fairly speculative compared to the definite short term effect, which would be to add regals to the economy since fewer would be leaving.
 
But that's just it, we want more Regals flowing around instead of just being saved because of tax
 
Also I dont think it would be that titanic of a difference.

And yes, more regals going around would let consumers value the goods. That would bring stability to the prices of goods.

*edit*

Some factions are paying 200+ a day, and if we lose those factions - the problems are going to get worse.
 
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I honestly don't think lowering taxes will do anything to increase regal flow. The majority of people pay less than 10r/day, which is nothing compared to the number of regals you can get for doing basically nothing by voting/pack isle. Giving them an extra 1-10r a day won't increase money flow by any helpful amount. I guess it might increase the amount leaders could spend, but again, most factions can pay their taxes literally by just having a single person vote and do pack isle for their 215-245 free regals a day. So again, doubt it's really going to do much other than remove a money sink. Now, of the number of free regals were like halved (215r a day is honestly pretty ridiculous), I could see cutting taxes.

The real issue, I think, is that there's nothing to spend money on. I mean, historically, the big ticket items have been pvp-related items and ores, I.e., God armor/weapons, pearls, diamonds, etc. Now, however, you need one set which you can get for what, 300 or 400r, and buy an occasional God wep for 100r. There's just not a lot to spend regals on. Even cities are more or less worthless, or at least quite difficult to sell. Point is, people like me have regals burning in their pockets, but wtf am I going to spend it on? I have more God armor and weapons than I could ever use, all the housing I need as a faction leader, etc. The real issue isn't people not having enough regals, it's not having anything to spend them on.
 
I think the way to get regals flowing is to create really big item sinks, recipes that require a tremendous amount of resources to craft. Since it would be really labor intensive to gather the items yourself, those with regals will part with them to gather the bits of the items a larger number of players have accumulated. I don't know what those items would be, but perhaps it could be a random lore item of various quality. Another way to make it unique would be to not publish the formula's but have attempts still lose the items in order to encourage experimentation and make the knowledge of what works and what does not valuable in itself. this way those that invest and lose alot of items experimenting would have the most knowledge of what works and what does not.
 
NikFurno said:
I think the way to get regals flowing is to create really big item sinks, recipes that require a tremendous amount of resources to craft. Since it would be really labor intensive to gather the items yourself, those with regals will part with them to gather the bits of the items a larger number of players have accumulated. I don't know what those items would be, but perhaps it could be a random lore item of various quality. Another way to make it unique would be to not publish the formula's but have attempts still lose the items in order to encourage experimentation and make the knowledge of what works and what does not valuable in itself. this way those that invest and lose alot of items experimenting would have the most knowledge of what works and what does not.
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Personally I'm in favor of unlocking sharp6/prot5, but I'm scared of how long it would take staff to balance it for pvp.
 
Zacatero said:
But that's just it, we want more Regals flowing around instead of just being saved because of tax
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Ah, I see -- I thought you guys were saying people had too many regals. If I understand correctly now, you're just saying you want people to spend their regals on goods rather than on taxes. What I usually hear people talking about regarding the economy is that there are too many regals, so that prices are very low for goods.

What you really need is a way to distribute regals better to the people who are more likely to spend them, like the people who do not own factions (which should far outnumber the people who do).

NikFurno said:
I think the way to get regals flowing is to create really big item sinks, recipes that require a tremendous amount of resources to craft.
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This seems like it would have the desired effect to me.
 
My issue is that prices change dramatically on a daily basis
 
jes_ said:
I honestly don't think lowering taxes will do anything to increase regal flow. The majority of people pay less than 10r/day, which is nothing compared to the number of regals you can get for doing basically nothing by voting/pack isle. Giving them an extra 1-10r a day won't increase money flow by any helpful amount. I guess it might increase the amount leaders could spend, but again, most factions can pay their taxes literally by just having a single person vote and do pack isle for their 215-245 free regals a day. So again, doubt it's really going to do much other than remove a money sink. Now, of the number of free regals were like halved (215r a day is honestly pretty ridiculous), I could see cutting taxes.

The real issue, I think, is that there's nothing to spend money on. I mean, historically, the big ticket items have been pvp-related items and ores, I.e., God armor/weapons, pearls, diamonds, etc. Now, however, you need one set which you can get for what, 300 or 400r, and buy an occasional God wep for 100r. There's just not a lot to spend regals on. Even cities are more or less worthless, or at least quite difficult to sell. Point is, people like me have regals burning in their pockets, but wtf am I going to spend it on? I have more God armor and weapons than I could ever use, all the housing I need as a faction leader, etc. The real issue isn't people not having enough regals, it's not having anything to spend them on.
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We need to find a way to get player's like you to spend; doing so would involve the whole economy and get it working healthy.

What do you think about opening another world soon?

So people have a reason to buy again.
 
Hoarding Regals is a bad thing for the economy

The first thought is usually, well let's add a sink so that way people will consistently lose some of that money

But in reality what really would help, is it that money changed hands more often
 
One of the best ways to make an economy stable is to give it a backbone, making certain goods always worth roughly the same amount. IE, in the old days, $1 = 1 gold bar for the USA or w/e.

Something similar would probably help with Massive's economy. Making Admin shops where you can buy/sell basic materials like diamonds and emeralds for a set price.

And a place to SELL GOD ARMOR BECAUSE EVEN AS A ROLEPLAYER I HAVE 10 SETS OF THE STUFF PLZ its not even a JOKE anymore with how devalued GOD ARMOR is.
 
conflicttFTW said:
One of the best ways to make an economy stable is to give it a backbone, making certain goods always worth roughly the same amount. IE, in the old days, $1 = 1 gold bar for the USA or w/e.

Something similar would probably help with Massive's economy. Making Admin shops where you can buy/sell basic materials like diamonds and emeralds for a set price.

And a place to SELL GOD ARMOR BECAUSE EVEN AS A ROLEPLAYER I HAVE 10 SETS OF THE STUFF PLZ its not even a JOKE anymore with how devalued GOD ARMOR is.
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It should be noted that gold standards cause way more problems than they solve, mostly when talking about global scale. On MassiveCraft it would essentially mean the end of the 100% player run economy. The main problem with Massive's economy is that there's nothing to really spend your money on. There's some really expensive KOTH stuff and lore but thats about it.
 
DanyWood said:
It should be noted that gold standards cause way more problems than they solve, mostly when talking about global scale. On MassiveCraft it would essentially mean the end of the 100% player run economy. The main problem with Massive's economy is that there's nothing to really spend your money on. There's some really expensive KOTH stuff and lore but thats about it.
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The most awkward part is that most of the players that see any value in those lore and KOTH items with their flashy enchants and descriptions are roleplayers. Pretty much all of the people that are hoarding giant sums of money are survival players that see no point in spending their money on that stuff, since they mostly buy stuff just for its practical use. Doesn't matter how flashy you make a lore item, it won't ever be more than something that takes up space in a chest for survival players.
 
Knyxor said:
The most awkward part is that most of the players that see any value in those lore and KOTH items with their flashy enchants and descriptions are roleplayers. Pretty much all of the people that are hoarding giant sums of money are survival players that see no point in spending their money on that stuff, since they mostly buy stuff just for its practical use. Doesn't matter how flashy you make a lore item, it won't ever be more than something that takes up space in a chest for survival players.
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I had an idea ages ago for pushing massive a bit further, enchant wise. Making sharp 6, prot 7, etc available, but stupidly rare. Having these extremely rare items- or at least the components needed to make them- be rewards to massive pvp events would make them the most valuable items besides Legendary Tier lore items. Something on par with blue lore items for roleplayers in a sense.

Im not sure exactly how that would effect things, but it might give survival people something more to strive for, especially given everyone and their pet rock has dubs of the best armor on the server already in surplus at the moment.
 
conflicttFTW said:
I had an idea ages ago for pushing massive a bit further, enchant wise. Making sharp 6, prot 7, etc available, but stupidly rare.
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I have an anecdote from my own MC history.

The last server I played on, basically did this. The rarity of the items and the greater chance of finding garbage made for a decent time to players. However, it eventually turned into the top 5% of the server having the best gear and nobody even trying to compete with them. None of this 5% PvP'd with anyone outside of their little niche, and only rarely raided another town when they were bored of making mob grinder. Yet none of the other 95% bothered to even get armor above vanilla diamond.

Why do I bring this up? Because the initial hype of getting all this gear died out in one summer. People got bored, and they quit, which led to me coming here. Maybe Massive could succeed with getting higher enchantments. But to me, God Armor is already insanely common and just making higher enchant levels only puts a bandage on the wound.

With this all said, diamond gear should remain the same. If any tier should get higher enchants, it should come with a trade off. For example, a sharpness X golden sword would be better than diamond, but it would break much faster, forcing a player to buy more of them.
 
conflicttFTW said:
I had an idea ages ago for pushing massive a bit further, enchant wise. Making sharp 6, prot 7, etc available, but stupidly rare. Having these extremely rare items- or at least the components needed to make them- be rewards to massive pvp events would make them the most valuable items besides Legendary Tier lore items. Something on par with blue lore items for roleplayers in a sense.

Im not sure exactly how that would effect things, but it might give survival people something more to strive for, especially given everyone and their pet rock has dubs of the best armor on the server already in surplus at the moment.
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Not sure about protection 7. Protection 5 was on the server a few years back as a premium only feature and people really didn't like it because it felt like you had to have it to have any chance at winning. I guess higher enchants would be OK as long as they are very rare to obtain and maybe are non-repairable so that they eventually break and people need to get more.
 
Knyxor said:
Not sure about protection 7. Protection 5 was on the server a few years back as a premium only feature and people really didn't like it because it felt like you had to have it to have any chance at winning. I guess higher enchants would be OK as long as they are very rare to obtain and maybe are non-repairable so that they eventually break and people need to get more.
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I think that was probably more because it was a premium only thing and people probably felt it was pay2win. But I digress.
 
Knyxor said:
Not sure about protection 7. Protection 5 was on the server a few years back as a premium only feature and people really didn't like it because it felt like you had to have it to have any chance at winning. I guess higher enchants would be OK as long as they are very rare to obtain and maybe are non-repairable so that they eventually break and people need to get more.
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I think the big problem with massivearmor was that it was unreliable to get. There was no way to get it on your own, since it came only through voting. However, if you could for example, use massive magic crafting to turn two pieces of prot 4 in breaking 5 into prot 5 unbreaking 3, you instantly half the amount of top tier armor. (Plus under this system you could abuse the extra enchants on gift4all to disable making them higher than prot 4). I agree that we should never go back to massivearmor; it was too difficult for all but the wealthy to get. However, making the top tier twice as difficult seems more than reasonable to me, since you can just make it whenever using vanilla obtainable items.
 
jes_ said:
I honestly don't think lowering taxes will do anything to increase regal flow. The majority of people pay less than 10r/day, which is nothing compared to the number of regals you can get for doing basically nothing by voting/pack isle. Giving them an extra 1-10r a day won't increase money flow by any helpful amount. I guess it might increase the amount leaders could spend, but again, most factions can pay their taxes literally by just having a single person vote and do pack isle for their 215-245 free regals a day. So again, doubt it's really going to do much other than remove a money sink. Now, of the number of free regals were like halved (215r a day is honestly pretty ridiculous), I could see cutting taxes.

The real issue, I think, is that there's nothing to spend money on. I mean, historically, the big ticket items have been pvp-related items and ores, I.e., God armor/weapons, pearls, diamonds, etc. Now, however, you need one set which you can get for what, 300 or 400r, and buy an occasional God wep for 100r. There's just not a lot to spend regals on. Even cities are more or less worthless, or at least quite difficult to sell. Point is, people like me have regals burning in their pockets, but wtf am I going to spend it on? I have more God armor and weapons than I could ever use, all the housing I need as a faction leader, etc. The real issue isn't people not having enough regals, it's not having anything to spend them on.
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Used to be that big ticket items were fhe factions themselves, since owning one used to actually mean something. Nothing has any value on this server because there is a huge surplus of everything.
 
conflicttFTW said:
Making Admin shops where you can buy/sell basic materials like diamonds and emeralds for a set price.
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I AGREED WITH THIS SO MUCH... until today. With 21 new magic words added recently, and a few of them being things like build-diamond, build-gold, and build-emerald... we're gonna have some problems.
 
Emkalouiza said:
I AGREED WITH THIS SO MUCH... until today. With 21 new magic words added recently, and a few of them being things like build-diamond, build-gold, and build-emerald... we're gonna have some problems.
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Pretty sure you have to have the items in your inventory already, it just places them.
 
I know of a server which doesn't allow people to make diamond armor/diamond swords. I think that would work on massive, degrading all diamond armor and gear to iron. Now here I have a different thought which would require skill, but the best would facilitate the economy. Basic iron armor is essentially chainmail in durability and strength. Crafting iron armor over and over again increases the skill of crafting armor. Decreased durability is equal to decreased strength. /fix is 5x more to use. Creating the best iron armor at the max smithing level takes about 7 minutes. At the lowest smithing level it would take an hour. I understand that the smithing level combined with the time might take a while to configure, but I have faith in our tech staff. Enchanting takes more time too, but only five minutes. To create a basic set it just is instantaneous. The tool to use here would be a forge, in which you can leave armor to be crafted and some kind of hammer. On the right is a bar that goes up and shows percentage, and taking the armor out before it's fully done will decrease the durability and the strength. Therefore, the very best iron armor is extremely hard to get, and thus has more value.
 
I personally think that two ways to help balance the economy, would be to increase faction creation costs to AT LEAST 3k, hopefully more like 5-8k, to decrease the upkeep back to 1r per 10, and then to unlock the Prot5, Sharp6 gear. Ideally, we would follow what @jes_ said in one of the other posts, about combining two Prot4 pieces with a beacon, or something valuable, in the MassiveMagic crafting grid. This would more than double the amount of regals required to buy a piece of higher tier gear. I also think that we should tag the 4all items with a NBT tag (dunno if thats how this works) that doesnt allow them to be combined to create the top tier gear.
 
TMI_Lord_Khan said:
I know of a server which doesn't allow people to make diamond armor/diamond swords. I think that would work on massive, degrading all diamond armor and gear to iron. Now here I have a different thought which would require skill, but the best would facilitate the economy. Basic iron armor is essentially chainmail in durability and strength. Crafting iron armor over and over again increases the skill of crafting armor. Decreased durability is equal to decreased strength. /fix is 5x more to use. Creating the best iron armor at the max smithing level takes about 7 minutes. At the lowest smithing level it would take an hour. I understand that the smithing level combined with the time might take a while to configure, but I have faith in our tech staff. Enchanting takes more time too, but only five minutes. To create a basic set it just is instantaneous. The tool to use here would be a forge, in which you can leave armor to be crafted and some kind of hammer. On the right is a bar that goes up and shows percentage, and taking the armor out before it's fully done will decrease the durability and the strength. Therefore, the very best iron armor is extremely hard to get, and thus has more value.
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Oh I love that. Diamond armor is a silly concept anyways, it ruins my immersion. Roleplayers would like that too! Works both ways. Limits the armors without making fighting too unfair, and makes the mobs more difficult without making them OP for players without God armor!
 
TMI_Lord_Khan said:
I know of a server which doesn't allow people to make diamond armor/diamond swords. I think that would work on massive, degrading all diamond armor and gear to iron. Now here I have a different thought which would require skill, but the best would facilitate the economy. Basic iron armor is essentially chainmail in durability and strength. Crafting iron armor over and over again increases the skill of crafting armor. Decreased durability is equal to decreased strength. /fix is 5x more to use. Creating the best iron armor at the max smithing level takes about 7 minutes. At the lowest smithing level it would take an hour. I understand that the smithing level combined with the time might take a while to configure, but I have faith in our tech staff. Enchanting takes more time too, but only five minutes. To create a basic set it just is instantaneous. The tool to use here would be a forge, in which you can leave armor to be crafted and some kind of hammer. On the right is a bar that goes up and shows percentage, and taking the armor out before it's fully done will decrease the durability and the strength. Therefore, the very best iron armor is extremely hard to get, and thus has more value.
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Oh I love that. Diamond armor is a silly concept anyways, it ruins my immersion. Roleplayers would like that too! Works both ways. Limits the armors without making fighting too unfair, and makes the mobs more difficult without making them OP for players without God armor!
 
Rubarberry said:
Oh I love that. Diamond armor is a silly concept anyways, it ruins my immersion. Roleplayers would like that too! Works both ways. Limits the armors without making fighting too unfair, and makes the mobs more difficult without making them OP for players without God armor!
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If they removed Diamond Armor they would definitely need to add some way to get better enchants on iron. Like Prot 5 iron or something.
 
TMI_Lord_Khan said:
I know of a server which doesn't allow people to make diamond armor/diamond swords. I think that would work on massive, degrading all diamond armor and gear to iron. Now here I have a different thought which would require skill, but the best would facilitate the economy. Basic iron armor is essentially chainmail in durability and strength. Crafting iron armor over and over again increases the skill of crafting armor. Decreased durability is equal to decreased strength. /fix is 5x more to use. Creating the best iron armor at the max smithing level takes about 7 minutes. At the lowest smithing level it would take an hour. I understand that the smithing level combined with the time might take a while to configure, but I have faith in our tech staff. Enchanting takes more time too, but only five minutes. To create a basic set it just is instantaneous. The tool to use here would be a forge, in which you can leave armor to be crafted and some kind of hammer. On the right is a bar that goes up and shows percentage, and taking the armor out before it's fully done will decrease the durability and the strength. Therefore, the very best iron armor is extremely hard to get, and thus has more value.
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No offense dude, but I don't think you know what you're talking about. That would in practice suck pvp-wise, particularly the whole decreased durability = decreased protection. That is a vanilla feature and was specifically disabled when massive went to 1.9 as a result of a good amount of lobbying by pvpers for it to be disabled.

The smithing thing would require editing mcmmo from my understanding of what you're talking about, something which staff have said they will not do, since it would have to be recoded for every update and re-integrated into mcmmo.

The enchanting/forging stuff seems unneeded and overly focused on unneeded afk grinding.

Tbh I don't even understand why you think iron would be better than diamond anyways. It's not as if it's even remotely difficult to get diamonds.

Rubarberry said:
Oh I love that. Diamond armor is a silly concept anyways, it ruins my immersion. Roleplayers would like that too! Works both ways. Limits the armors without making fighting too unfair, and makes the mobs more difficult without making them OP for players without God armor!
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Factions worlds are not lore compliant, nor should they be. If you want to wear iron armor, just do it. If you want God armor you can get enough regals to buy a set in two days with voting/job island.
 
Faction taxes have been lowered to 1 regal per 10 chunks. Marking this thread as handled.
 
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