Dissatisfied Customer Review

MokeDuck · Jun 5, 2019

I have played MassiveCraft for 5 years now. I was satisfied and enjoyed the server for the first three, was indifferent for the next year, and for the past year I have been dissatisfied.

When I first started to play I felt I could easily tell my friends about massivecraft. After a few years I stopped telling people about massivecraft. In the past year I have actively told people NOT to play the server in the rare case it has come up in conversation. I avoid mentioning any specifics about the server, especially the name, when talking in front of any of my friends that has a minecraft account.
This is simply because chat moderation, in all cases, uses a warning system for temporary punishments. Warnings should be used for mildly overstepping the rules or to make players aware of a possible permanent punishment. General chat is not appropriate for children. Alliance chat is blatantly not appropriate for children. Most of my friends that have a minecraft account are in highschool still and believe in certain moral values with respect to sex and/or have parents that would like to moderate what they see. I can excuse chats like PvP that are not public chats that are shown by default, but the default should NOT be consistent bi-daily messages involving sexual perversion.

There is no added gameplay in massive besides exploration and building. I joined massive for competitive factions that didn't just end in a blown-up base. I know this is being worked on. I appreciate that, and its getting better. There needs to be at least one solution that doesn't involve a staff running it. I want to pop on and play massive, not be on massive a ton and be rewarded when there is an event.

Massive's commands and introduction is confusing and frustrating. The only overview of commands is the holograph path tutorial. It is inconvenient and very brief. There needs to be an easily accessible, intuitive overview. /help is the standard for every other server. I don't want to have to explain the chat system to literally every recruit.

All of these problems are well-known. Staff have acknowledged them. Each of them has at least several viable solutions. Consistently, staff do not implement any of the solutions until several months or even a year later. Staff absolutely need to figure out how to implement non-tech or tech-light changes within 2-3 weeks, 5 weeks at most.

I've recently been avoiding chats, discords, and the forums, and I'm gonna keep it up. This is just an opinion, maaaaaan.
@MonMarty

P.S.
I do not encourage preemptively muting people. However, I do not see a day-long punishment for referencing rape, pedophilia, sex (the specifics, not just the word)
I understand that a decent amount of people reference these in jokes and conversation in everyday life and that a majority of people are used to it. However, just because you hear a middle schooler using cuss words doesn't mean chat rule enforcement isn't very important. Cussing is not the same as talking openly and blatantly about edgy types of sex. I don't like blatant references to edgy sex or the specifics of sexual activity of any kind.
It has been suggested that I should do /chat leave general. Thats fine, but that also means that I will eventually leave the server altogether. Theres a reason only a minority on the server doesn't like the edgy humor.

Mojavens · Jun 5, 2019

I feel u man, when you were in staff were you not able to be the change that you felt the server needed?

MokeDuck · Jun 5, 2019

yea I wasn't. I signed up for staff months before actually getting in. By the time I was actually started on the process school had started. Then I was expected to get points by hosting events and taking tickets. I was bogged down by that and by the time the survival department's ideas were being started as projects I was reaching the final robotics competition and I had to leave.

I tried to re-join staff after but since school was still going on and I was put on some sort of semi-aspirancy where I basically was copying minecraft wiki's redstone guides (of course not plagarising, just making my own versions of effectively the same thing) and I had no real goals to work toward. I saw it as a waste of time shortly after making the massivecraft-rule specific one and of course I was still bogged down with AP calculus so I just didn't bother.

Doraiaky · Jun 5, 2019

I genuinely don't understand what your point is. Are you saying staff is too lenient on chat moderation and that they aren't doing their jobs right in the department of implementing tech-light solutions to occurring problems? I wasn't online today when general chat supposedly blew up, but they can't pre-ban, pre-warn or pre-mute anyone that they think will say anything sexual or otherwise innapropriate, it has to happen first. Regarding the last part of your post, that solutions aren't implemented, I personally believe staff is trying to implement such solutions, but the priorities have changed from welcoming newer players to trying to maintain the community we have on the server currently and that newer implementations and projects are more aimed at that, probably because you can work with the people currently playing, bettering the server with the suggestions and opinions they provide, but you can't really do it with newer players, they're not the core of the community, most active players have played for years. I'd love to see "noob-friendly" tech-light implementations to what we have right now, some sort of book for newer players maybe, maybe even the OG-style of walls of signs, but I also understand that priorities shift and those aren't/weren't the current ones.

GrumpyGirl314 · Jun 6, 2019

In regard to forums moderation, Dora is right in that we can't punish for things that haven't happened yet. This also isn't Thortuna's era. Players are able to leave chat channels they don't want to see or ones that include content they don't want to see, such as general chat or pvp chat or ally chat. (My faction actually has a swear jar which helps our faction chat stay pretty clean--but we also have a lot of prepayments for this too xD)

The Gameplay is being worked on, (you might actually go check out the Essalonia Revolution stuff or the Summer Festival stuff--both of these are current content going on right now which give you something to do) as well as multiple solutions to help with new players. You might go read through the server announcements for all of the state of survival posts. These give notes on what Game dept is actively working on and their status. For example, Tech and Game have been working together for a help plugin, which is in progress. I've actually seen screenshots of the interface of this as it is going through development--I am super excited for this because players will be able to navigate this for answers on... everything. So, this is in progress.

The reason why content takes so long is because, like you, we have other obligations in addition to Massive that we have to split our time between. We also put a lot of work into our projects to make them better instead of a duct-taped project thrown together in a week. Additionally, not all projects have such obviously tangible results, such as dynmap and invis pot trials and warzones or the kitpvp pot organization. But that doesn't make these any less important. I understand that it's difficult to wait for things (trust me, I am SO impatient too!), but we do appreciate your patience while we continue to work on all of the projects we are excited to release for you as they finish.

Zacatero · Jun 6, 2019

MokeDuck said:
Massive's commands and introduction is confusing and frustrating. The only overview of commands is the holograph path tutorial. It is inconvenient and very brief. There needs to be an easily accessible, intuitive overview. /help is the standard for every other server. I don't want to have to explain the chat system to literally every recruit

Lol go look at the forum history. You'll find that me and @Violettee among others have been suggesting a comprehensive tutorial for years. I really think it could be done very well with Quest. This is definitely something that is possible now that there's a competent quest team again.

GrumpyGirl314 said:
The Gameplay is being worked on, (you might actually go check out the Essalonia Revolution stuff or the Summer Festival stuff--both of these are current content going on right now which give you something to do)

@GrumpyGirl314 in all fairness while those two events you mention are fantastic, Moke was more specifically talking about gameplay changes the staff aren't running. For example the re-addition of the war declarations which I think is definitely a good thing.

GrumpyGirl314 said:
This also isn't Thortuna's era.

While it definitely makes sense to distance yourselves from them, you also have to remember that their "era" also did a lot of things right. They did keep the survival worlds going for years. It's unfair to all involved if you just dismiss something because it's something Thortuna did.

enderdragon · Jun 6, 2019

Doraiaky said:
I wasn't online today when general chat supposedly blew up, but they can't pre-ban, pre-warn or pre-mute anyone that they think will say anything sexual or otherwise innapropriate, it has to happen first.

GrumpyGirl314 said:
In regard to forums moderation, Dora is right in that we can't punish for things that haven't happened yet. This also isn't Thortuna's era.

I do not believe @MokeDuck was suggesting to preemptively ban/warn players who might violate the chat rules. I think what he is saying is that warning people is not enough. The same people violating the rules continue to do so after being warned.

GrumpyGirl314 said:
Players are able to leave chat channels they don't want to see or ones that include content they don't want to see, such as general chat or pvp chat or ally chat.

Sorry, but this seems to be the wrong way of thinking. Players shouldn't have to leave general chat to avoid seeing inappropriate content when that chat should already be monitored and "safe."

Though, I do like your swear jar idea. Perhaps whenever a person is repeatedly warned, a portion of their money will be taken and put in the RegalianBank or something.

65jes89 · Jun 6, 2019

Not on my Christian Minecraft server

Altalar · Jun 6, 2019

Personally ive been on and off massivecraft due to assumptions being held over my head, that players make because of whispers from both staff to players. Because of this I personally don't trust staff, sorry but ever since the leak occurred a few months ago that proved that staff do and will talk shit about you without recollection about the people they talk about, it has made me a shell of my former self if you will. Now i'm no hypocrite as i've done this a few times in my life however it puts into perspective how staff treats its players outside of the game, personally I'm all for discussing the behavior of a certain player but the way it was handled on that day was unacceptable. Once their opinions were made public it made me feel as if they were to put me on some sort of trophy cabinet of freaks. I'd prefer if staff were open and transparent.. rather than it having to come into the public as a result of a former staff member holding a grudge against others and wanting to ruin a community or in this case a players reputation.

Although I could spend hours talking about transparency, I won't divert attention away from the points made in this thread and so heres me a really tired gremlin giving her opinion:

I personally don't see the benefit in filtering out swear words for general when they're fine to use in local? it would be smarter to have the option to turn a filter on and off as some of the players are in an older age demographic than others and frankly I don't see why people over 18+ have to deal with this "cushion" nonsense where you try to soften words when the reality is we all know what "shut the hug up" really means.. in this day and age you can't depend on a soft-shell of protection to prevent people from flaming and cussing each other out in public channels, it eventually happens and does so quite often (sorry..) but turning this whole debacle into a full scale debate on wether or not giving out harsher punishments and this aforementioned "swear-jar" is really necessary in this situation where for a few moments in general chat it contained "Inappropriate comments" and "Vulgarity" My opinion stands that this is quite frankly ludicrous, for one thing how can you expect people to partake in a "swear-jar" when most of them have jobs and kids of their own? you expect to treat adults like children just because you feel theres a tear in your online safety bubble?

Now I understand below 18's play this server, but frankly i've seen a 14 year old cuss worse than me.. however I'll try to play it from both sides of this argument. I can see the benefit in a swear-jar however, as grumpy mentioned this only applies to her faction, we have no evidence to suggest it would work if such a plugin was implemented onto the server as there is multiple blanks that would need to be filled such as: how will it work for players who almost never have over 10 regals? I personally don't ever have any, nor do dark-room and I don't offer any services that will give me regals so I ask will those who are to be punished who don't have enough to take a portion of have a punishment be equal to or worse than those that can actually afford to pay the toll price? in saying this I suggest a filter on and off plugin that allows for those of us who are soon to be adults, will now be able to enjoy the full blown vulgarity of public without having to bubblewrap and cuddle the words by replacing them with "Hug" or "Friend"

In all fairness, if you dislike what you read or saw leave the channel temporarily or block the person responsible for it, and if you feel truly upset you can report them for it.

Lumbo · Jun 6, 2019

Typed this on a phone so pardon my confusing sentences, hopefully you can understand what's being said. I'll edit this another time.

What I think is wrong with the server currently is that
1. People constantly advertise a different game, intentionally trying to pursue people in a witch-hunt that attacks staff and their work, while it's fine to talk about other games on MassiveCraft, I feel like what staff have been doing isn't simply good enough for the community to enjoy and it creates a toxic atmosphere where players will just attack the people with the most influence on the server.
2. Roleplay has loads of updates while survival doesn't, mainly because roleplay is ruled with an iron-fist by the owner of the server, it's exactly the same for survival, we need updates for pvp too. Sure, roleplay is the bigger part of the server but if you constantly neglect the other part of the survival is creates a toxic atmosphere and players will constantly complain until they see what they want is implemented or even acknowledged.
3. PvP and survival is restricted when it comes to balances, buffs, and nerfs of something, we can't implement or balance things if it affects roleplay negatively in even the slightest way ever. Our opinions are heard but never seem to be addressed.
4. Saying you guys are starting to be more transparent but did the opposite. You guys went from talking about how a staff member got banned and what they were doing to not letting a player see who warned, banned, or jailed him/she. The lack of transparency contributes to the toxicity which is why you constantly see people who used to enjoy MassiveCraft to hating the server and asking all their friends to stop playing it. This even caused people to boycott the tourney last month (I think) because what the community asked for seems to be neglected.
5. Game staff that change survival and pvp but rarely, ever teleported to Essalonia. When staff put people that rarely ever pvped to change pvp, it makes people angry because it shows ignorance of the community, just like how (For an example) someone scrutinizes you and throws in random ideas even though you know everything about the subject you're talking about and don't approve of their ideas.
6. PvP and survival always appeared to be disregarded for by the owner of the server, no one wants to take a product from a business that doesn't care for their wellbeing. Being told on forums post that the owner doesn't really care for the pvp community contributes to the toxic atmosphere pvp has today. Now, all you see in pvp chat is "Pvp is dead", "I'll pvp when something changes" Sure these people are exaggerating, but they're trying to bring up a point that seems to be disapproved and ignore by staff.

My main suggestion right now is to have three game heads: A survivalist, a PvPer, and a person that is capable of interacting with survival and roleplay community and forming an unbiased opinion between the two communities (Essentially just a jack-of-all-trades type of person)

Winterless · Jun 6, 2019

Creamiest said:
I'd prefer if staff were open and transparent

Believe me, I'd like to be open and transparent about what I think of some people on this server, but then I'd get a billion staff reports in ten seconds.

Such is the life of a staff member

Lumbo said:
My main suggestion right now is to have three game heads: A survivalist, a PvPer, and a person that is capable of interacting with survival and roleplay community and forming an unbiased opinion between the two communities

I am beginning work on becoming a Rank3 so is that the sort of thing you would like

Lumbo said:
PvP and survival always appeared to be disregarded for by the owner of the server, no one wants to take a product from a business that doesn't care for their wellbeing

Can confirm that MonMarty does not run roughshod over Game staff. I rarely hear of ideas generated in Game being slapped down because "pvp lol". Marty is smart enough to know that you get people to do what you can't- which is why we have a Game dept in the first place.

Lumbo said:
Game staff that change survival and pvp but rarely, ever teleported to Essalonia. When staff put people that rarely ever pvped to change pvp

I can confirm that this doesn't happen- absolutely anything that is primarily PvP related is always brought to the attention of relevant people within Game staff.

Lumbo said:
You guys went from talking about how a staff member got banned and what they were doing to not letting a player see who warned, banned, or jailed him/she. The lack of transparency contributes to the toxicity which is why you constantly see people who used to enjoy MassiveCraft to hating the server and asking all their friends to stop playing it.

All this happened before the person who handled the punishment's name was removed. I have not seen any evidence that suggesrs that putting the staff name on the punishment is a good idea.

Lumbo said:
Roleplay has loads of updates while survival doesn't, mainly because roleplay is ruled with an iron-fist by the owner of the server, it's exactly the same for survival, we need updates for pvp too

Roleplay is also significantly easier to update. Factions requires coding and quest writing and a whole lot of physical updates.

MokeDuck said:
General chat is not appropriate for children. Alliance chat is blatantly not appropriate for children. Most of my friends that have a minecraft account are in highschool still and believe in certain moral values with respect to sex and/or have parents that would like to moderate what they see.

This seems like a very small group of people to me. Personally, I think that if it's not targeted directly at you and is something as benign as a swear word then you shouldn't really get cut up about it- but that's just me. We can't delete messages in chat, and we can't ban people before they ever do anything. That's some Winter Soldier SHIELD helicarrier levels of fuckery and I don't think anyone would want that.

Lumbo said:
PvP and survival is restricted when it comes to balances, buffs, and nerfs of something, we can't implement or balance things if it affects roleplay negatively in even the slightest way ever

Balancing is purely down to Tech workload. Anything we can balance without coding we tend to do in a timely manner. If you've got ideas for balancing, put it on a doc and post it on the forums or send it to me in a dm, and I'll have a gander at it. A lot of stuff related to how traits work requires actual recoding of the plugin, which we can't do with 1.13 looming.

enderdragon said:
Players shouldn't have to leave general chat to avoid seeing inappropriate content when that chat should already be monitored and "safe."

Chat is monitored, but we can't proactively mute people. We're not psychics, and frankly I don't see the point in muting someone because they said a bad word in general chat. If they direct it at someone sure but otherwise I don't really care tbh, and I don't really see why you should either

Good chats boys

MonMarty · Jun 6, 2019

Lumbo said:
Being told on forums post that the owner doesn't really care for the pvp community

I think Winterless already covered it above but I wanted to quickly add, a proper server owner is never, or should never be, an obstacle to the work of their team members and delegated activities. I have never outright denied Game Staff anything, and when I have, it was a challenge to think more critically on the subject to come up with multiple alternatives to ensure the right decision is made.

I don't recall ever stating I don't like the PVP community, I think I've alluded or stated that it is capable of generating a lot of negative noise. I don't have enough hours or energy in the day to service everyone, that is why I delegate and why I have a Game Department. It is true that I have a ton more energy for RP, but that is because their demographic has different needs that I am better suited to satisfy.

In this regard, I do not feel I should be seen as the bogeyman in this scenario. I do not run the RP community with an Iron Fist, the Lore Dep. runs based on consensus and open debate in which I moderate, but I do not out of hand reject work from others, merely provide a framework. I think alluding, or stating that, the blame lies with a disinterested owner does disservice to the people trying to get stuff done for Survival as much as possible every day.

For now our Tech focus is on 1.13, and subsequent tech updates. The leap from 1.12 to 1.13 is very hard, because the entire command structure has to be updated, it's a major change Mojang forced that takes months of development time. It is absolutely absorbing 120% of our Tech department's work load, but after that, updating to subsequent Minecraft updates should be real fast. I personally think a decent injection of content through Minecraft is the first way to go, after all, many players on Massive are not familiar with the 1.13 features, myself included.

When the workload from the 1.13 update is offloaded, our Tech people can work on other smaller plugins instead. In the meantime, Game is already developing this triad of leadership you're referring to. Two spots are already taken, while a third one would soon be hopefully on their way.

I'll see if I can get some dedicated PR staff to be liaison of different departments to make production reports. As of late we haven't really been publicizing what we've been doing, these kind of things tend to be easily forgotten when you're in the flow of things. Maybe if we have this single contact person that builds reports for the player base, as well as acts as a single focus point for questions from players to departments about their workload and functioning, that might improve transparency.

65jes89 · Jun 6, 2019

MonMarty said:
I think Winterless already covered it above but I wanted to quickly add, a proper server owner is never, or should never be, an obstacle to the work of their team members and delegated activities. I have never outright denied Game Staff anything, and when I have, it was a challenge to think more critically on the subject to come up with multiple alternatives to ensure the right decision is made.

I don't recall ever stating I don't like the PVP community, I think I've alluded or stated that it is capable of generating a lot of negative noise. I don't have enough hours or energy in the day to service everyone, that is why I delegate and why I have a Game Department. It is true that I have a ton more energy for RP, but that is because their demographic has different needs that I am better suited to satisfy.

In this regard, I do not feel I should be seen as the bogeyman in this scenario. I do not run the RP community with an Iron Fist, the Lore Dep. runs based on consensus and open debate in which I moderate, but I do not out of hand reject work from others, merely provide a framework. I think alluding, or stating that, the blame lies with a disinterested owner does disservice to the people trying to get stuff done for Survival as much as possible every day.

For now our Tech focus is on 1.13, and subsequent tech updates. The leap from 1.12 to 1.13 is very hard, because the entire command structure has to be updated, it's a major change Mojang forced that takes months of development time. It is absolutely absorbing 120% of our Tech department's work load, but after that, updating to subsequent Minecraft updates should be real fast. I personally think a decent injection of content through Minecraft is the first way to go, after all, many players on Massive are not familiar with the 1.13 features, myself included.

When the workload from the 1.13 update is offloaded, our Tech people can work on other smaller plugins instead. In the meantime, Game is already developing this triad of leadership you're referring to. Two spots are already taken, while a third one would soon be hopefully on their way.

I'll see if I can get some dedicated PR staff to be liaison of different departments to make production reports. As of late we haven't really been publicizing what we've been doing, these kind of things tend to be easily forgotten when you're in the flow of things. Maybe if we have this single contact person that builds reports for the player base, as well as acts as a single focus point for questions from players to departments about their workload and functioning, that might improve transparency.

What would be nice in terms of transparency, off the top of my head (I realize you're not actually involved in most of these, just in general):

Eotor rework, i.e. is it happening and is there any sort of work currently going into it.
Actual explanation for why the End can't be released until after 1.13; as far as I'm aware there are not any major features of the End that require tech work with the possible exception of KoTH, which I'm pretty sure we're all fine waiting for until whenever it can be done. If there are features Game wants in End that they're not telling us about, they should really release the thought process on that to the public because, with all due respect to game, I don't think any current members with the possible exception of Winterless and Sevak understand how an End should work in order for it to be beneficial to pvp. Just want to see it done right, and the lack of info on why it can't be moved forward with until 1.13 worries me.
What happened to dungeons, as I believe it was supposed to be released like 2 months ago.
Possibility of fixing the nether to be more helpful in terms of blaze spawners and encouraging pvp. Right now having 4 or however many areas with a shitload of spawners is not doing anything to encourage pvp, and has the potential of flooding the supply to the point of making it infeasible to use blaze spawners properly in the future to encourage pvp.

MonMarty said:
triad of leadership

Is this referring to geek and birb as direction leads or something else?

Lumbo said:
letting a player see who warned, banned, or jailed him/she

+1, not being able to see who punished someone makes it much harder to see staff members with vendettas against certain players.

GrumpyGirl314 said:
This also isn't Thortuna's era

For the love of god stop saying that lol. Whether it's true or not, you weren't around then, and you definitely weren't around when she was actually an issue. Saying something doesn't make it true, and the irony in you saying that is a little to real.

Jalapeno690 · Jun 6, 2019

65jes89 said:
For the love of god stop saying that lol. Whether it's true or not, you weren't around then, and you definitely weren't around when she was actually an issue. Saying something doesn't make it true, and the irony in you saying that is a little to real.

I fully agree with this, quite a few who came after Tunas time have been quick to jump on the bandwagon, yes Tuna was a huge issue, yes I did have to write her a letter of apology, but, things got done, the community was vibrant

enderdragon · Jun 6, 2019

Winterless said:
This seems like a very small group of people to me. Personally, I think that if it's not targeted directly at you and is something as benign as a swear word then you shouldn't really get cut up about it- but that's just me. We can't delete messages in chat, and we can't ban people before they ever do anything. That's some Winter Soldier SHIELD helicarrier levels of fuckery and I don't think anyone would want that.

Look, I understand what you are saying, but I don't it find it very compelling. There is Faction chat, Alliance chat, direct messaging, and PVP chat. Moreover, there is discord and other similar platforms. General chat is the one chat where everyone on the server is connected to and where everyone can hear/see everything. With so many other outlets General chat should be the most managed. (I'm not saying it isn't right now, but that "benign words" shouldn't slide by in General).

And yes, swearing should be very limited in general chat. Perhaps the occasional word is fine, but honestly I think there are more children that play on the sever than you think. It doesn't matter if some of them have the vocabulary of an adult, because there are still others who don't and shouldn't be exposed to this via an online game.

For some reason people seem to keep misunderstanding: The suggestion was not to ban or warn people before they violate chat rules. It was a critique how the current warning system might not be doing enough.

I know it's a cliche to quote the rule book, but literally the first sentence is: "In general, respect each other and do not run around ruining the atmosphere for others just so you can have fun."

65jes89 · Jun 6, 2019

enderdragon said:
Look, I understand what you are saying, but I don't it find it very compelling. There is Faction chat, Alliance chat, direct messaging, and PVP chat. Moreover, there is discord and other similar platforms. General chat is the one chat where everyone on the server is connected to and where everyone can hear/see everything. With so many other outlets General chat should be the most managed. (I'm not saying it isn't right now, but that "benign words" shouldn't slide by in General).

And yes, swearing should be very limited in general chat. Perhaps the occasional word is fine, but honestly I think there are more children that play on the sever than you think. It doesn't matter if some of them have the vocabulary of an adult, because there are still others who don't and shouldn't be exposed to this via an online game.

For some reason people seem to keep misunderstanding: The suggestion was not to ban or warn people before they violate chat rules. It was a critique how the current warning system might not be doing enough.

I know it's a cliche to quote the rule book, but literally the first sentence is: "In general, respect each other and do not run around ruining the atmosphere for others just so you can have fun."

Saying bitch in general chat is not going to hurt anyone bud

MonMarty · Jun 6, 2019

65jes89 said:
Eotor rework

I originally committed to this, and it's probably a pipeline at this point. In consideration, I felt it more beneficial to try and draw traffic from Regalia to Survival, then to draw traffic from both to Eotor. Eotor is on freeze. I will most likely end up picking up Wooper's suggestions of porting the Eotor cities into Essalonia as RP safezones, but as a concept Eotor is done.

65jes89 said:
Actual explanation for why the End

I don't know the details of this. I'm sure when the liaison thing gets set up there will be a more substantive response.

65jes89 said:
What happened to dungeons,

I think without mincing words, it comes down to people dragging feet. Not everyone has my energy and time, and I lack the expertise to build a good dungeon.

65jes89 said:
ossibility of fixing the nether

That's a discussion to be had in the Factions Feedback Discord, for those who are still in there as productive members of that discord.

65jes89 said:
Is this referring to geek and birb

No. It's referring to Sephite running the department with her own selected delegated leaders.

65jes89 said:
For the love of god stop saying that lol.

No I think they should definitely keep saying that, and I think that the comparison of "the good and the bad of the old days" is a bit moot. When you look at the production line which is still available from those days in reports, the vast majority of content updates for survival came from tech, not from Game. There were key players who produced good shit, like Spectec, Addrion (early on) and Lazzulai, but they weren't responsible for the convoluted political system that ruled towards the latter months that left even me afraid of speaking up against the worst of excesses. It's a fair statement, because it's an active recognition and distancing that we don't believe in the practical acts of terror and personal vindictiveness performed on the players back then. They were regrettable circumstances that took far too long to get rid of, and I think they should not be seen as saying "It's not as bad as back then", but rather "We believe this would cause us to act like back then, which we find morally unjustified".

65jes89 said:
+1, not being able to see who punished someone makes it much harder to see staff members with vendettas against certain players.

From a purely mathematical perspective there is actually no benefit to know who punished you. I would argue in return it:

Entices players to have a vendetta against staff
Entices players to immediately emotionally respond against staff in the wake of a warning or punishment
Entices players not to perceive their rule violation as a legitimate personal flaw, but as a consequence of staff pressure
Entices staff to reconsider whether punishment should be done out of popularity considerations
Entices certain discords to exist where calls are made to bully specific staff out of the server over punishments

The perceived idea that transparency of punishments somehow leads to accountability among staff only works when you work at the base assumption that staff are actively corrupt and abuse their permissions to get back at players they don't like on an active routine, which is structurally just not true. If a player is punished, whether it be anonymously or with a staff name attached, they are able to file a staff report and have their punishment questioned. In practically all cases save for a few where a staff member acted too quickly (not because they had a vendetta) it always ends up being a case of "I got punished less" or "I got punished without a warning" not "I didn't break this rule". There isn't a single complaint case on the complaint section right now where a player legitimately was innocent of a rule violation, except for those cases mentioned where a Staff member acted too quickly and did not do enough research, which happened twice or three times in the past 7 months.

When comparing the thus nonexistent benefit versus the proven to have happened and continue to be happening downsides, this additionally afforded protection was the bare minimum of functions that could be done to ensure Game staff don't get an active burnout from knowing that there are groups of players who will conspire to skirt the gray zone of the rules to bully staff members away for merely doing their job, in line with documentation that describes strict punishment guidelines, times, repeat offense treatment and more, which to my knowledge have never been violated.

/wall of text. I think these two points are really multi-layered that cannot just be simplified to a single "us versus them". It's super divisive.

Doraiaky · Jun 6, 2019

enderdragon said:
For some reason people seem to keep misunderstanding: The suggestion was not to ban or warn people before they violate chat rules.

No one ever thought that's what you meant, what we're saying is that it's impossible to prevent that from happening. What are you going to do, mute everyone on the server that's ever said a swear word? There are limits to how much you can moderate general chat before completely killing the point of it: saying what you want to everyone out there. Obviously us as players don't really see the behind the scenes too much, but it's very clear that mutes and warns happen consistently if you look at the chat of more unregulated servers. In my humble opinion, such issue you are critiquing a non-issue and general chat is fine, granted it sometimes goes crazy (which is unpreventable).

MonMarty · Jun 6, 2019

Doraiaky said:
Obviously us as players don't really see the behind the scenes too much, but it's very clear that mutes and warns happen consistently if you look at the chat of more unregulated servers.

To add to this: I can tell from logs that there have been 93 punishments issued over Chat violations in the past month, 27 specifically attributed to General Chat, 3 for misuse of Trade Chat, 18 for trolling in Help Chat, and others. From what I can tell about 40% of them, spread over those three specific topics, come from the same people over and over.

I honestly like General chat with a bit of swear words every now and then. I am not so squeaky clean not to use the word "bitch" in a loving and jesting manner. Maybe it's worthwhile to expand the word filter to other swear words, have that word filter be the default feature for new players, and just make turning it off optional and then not punishing for swear words in general anymore.

enderdragon · Jun 6, 2019

MonMarty said:
T Maybe it's worthwhile to expand the word filter to other swear words, have that word filter be the default feature for new players, and just make turning it off optional and then not punishing for swear words in general anymore.

That seems like a good idea

Chappers · Jun 6, 2019

A nice cringy post

Zacatero · Jun 6, 2019

Just going to reiterate what I said before.

I think that if you blindly disregard things just because it's something that Thortuna did is very irresponsible and very short-sighted.

So unless, for some reason, the Direction Department back in the day was so corrupt that somebody could be among the highest-ranking staff for no damn good reason... Which I highly doubt... That means she was there for a pretty good reason, and that should be taken into consideration before throwing away everything she ever did just cuz of how she exited the server. I understand the environment of Minecraft in general has declined, but still I remember her presiding over a very successful set of survival worlds. so I'd like to think she did something right.

So that's why it frustrates me when staff say "We're the good guys, not Thortunas era" because do you know who else was a part of that era? Omnomivore and Sephite. I think it's pretty fair to say that they are among some of the best staff massive has had and they came from Thortunas gamestaff.

Violettee · Jun 6, 2019

MokeDuck said:
Massive's commands and introduction is confusing and frustrating. The only overview of commands is the holograph path tutorial. It is inconvenient and very brief. There needs to be an easily accessible, intuitive overview. /help is the standard for every other server. I don't want to have to explain the chat system to literally every recruit.

Thanks for tagging me @Zacatero
I addressed this in my document, however, I need to update it after realising how much even I was leaving out of it's sequence since making my own faction.

One thing I have to readdress is the lack of traits help inside the server. There is 0 mention of them. Not at kitpvp, not at spawn.
I am desperately holding out on a new more informative spawn.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently my faction F home is split into:
-Download the Texturepack (instead of trying to auto apply, just give us the link only)

Side 1:
- MassiveTraits Commands (/t i, /t a (Traitname), /t r (traitname), /t r all) then the url to the MassiveTraits Page.
- MassiveTraits Example Builds (Movement, Darkroom, PvP)
- Darkroom (how to make money and get XP) (Unfinished)
-/tp Market (where to sell goods and earn more money, how to buy and set up) (Unfinished)

Side 2:
- Things to do (Frontier Camp, Quest World, KitPvp, Creative, Roleplay)
- Trade (Basically how to use the /t name feature
- Payment (/money g (playername) (amount) and /f money d (amount)
- Essentials like /wb, /bp, /trash, /rc h, /rc l, /rc g
- Discord (Basically adressing that most updates are on discord and that they should join and how to join
- Forums

I also have plans for addressing the races so that my members can identify with something.
and I need to do a full blown tutorial on how to lock things (thankfully tutorial actually covers this one)
I leave /he tool until they do something wrong, watch them deny it then show them their own name.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

^ These are the things I expect to be included in the tutorial path and/or Essalonia Spawn. ^

Additionally:
I have a second area for pvp related things

-Crafting and enchanting armour
-How to make a portal and lock it, make it one way/two way, and how to read combos
-An area explaining how to get your repair up and that the target is 1000, it also mentions that there is currently a 0.5% chance items will disenchant. (It's important this stuff is around the area people will actively be doing this stuff)
-A further explanation of Darkrooming complete with trait signs and what types of weapons or skills you can level up (Unarmed, Swords, Axes, Taming and archery)
- The pot refil area explains that you can craft potions in /wb and has the recipe on the walls above the chests/hoppers

NebulaePrimo · Jun 6, 2019

General chat can get bad, but there are some specific people you can find in ally chat that... well... in my country, you aren't even allowed to say that stuff. But apparently hate speech is fine as long as the people in general chat can't see it and no one seems to have a problem with that. Really cool to go on to play on Massivecraft and get greeted by a few people in ally chat casually joking about mass genocide pretty much on a daily basis. If you say it on social media in a group chat or otherwise, you'd get banned. But Massivecraft? As long as only 30 people hear it and not all 100 online, you can say literally anything. If we're worried about the poor children who get exposed to swear words sometimes, maybe be more worried about the stuff people don't dare say on general chat but freely say in other chats.

And I can already hear the typing, "oh well just un-ally them then" and like, not everyone is a faction leader or officer? There are viable strategic reasons to be allied to these people so I guess we just have to put up with them?

If you want to make Massivecraft more player friendly, maybe try to discourage constant racist jokes?
But I guess I'm just a liberal SJW for having extreme views like, "maybe we should do something about people who say stuff that is literally hate speech in multiple North American and European countries, especially if there are children around."

Violettee · Jun 6, 2019

MokeDuck said:
General chat is not appropriate for children. Alliance chat is blatantly not appropriate for children. Most of my friends that have a minecraft account are in highschool still and believe in certain moral values with respect to sex and/or have parents that would like to moderate what they see.

I'm confused are these children or high school students? I doubt bad language gets moderated at school. I kinda understand if a parent looks over their teenager's shoulder whilst on a family pc to see something like what Creamiest puts in chat sometimes, why they'd have concerns or bar them from it but at the same time, strict parents and the internet are just never gonna work. Every game out there you're gonna hear or see some sort of cuss, abuse or sexual reference. I don't even think club penguin was safe from that crap. I agree with maybe extending the filter to include more cover ups like Hug and stuff but, it's about all massive can do, like Grumpy said, can't punish people until they've done the crime.

MonMarty · Jun 6, 2019

Violettee said:
I am desperately holding out on a new more informative spawn.

Maybe you could work with Yigit and Spun on making like some sort of draft example in a creative world? You worked real well with them in the past. The information section of Massive has always been garbage. I tried looking at competing servers and build one that combined what was good about those a while back, but for some reason loads of people thought that was bad (like literally the way other servers do it) and wanted to change it to what it looks like now.

Zacatero · Jun 6, 2019

MonMarty said:
Maybe you could work with Yigit and Spun on making like some sort of draft example in a creative world? You worked real well with them in the past. The information section of Massive has always been garbage. I tried looking at competing servers and build one that combined what was good about those a while back, but for some reason loads of people thought that was bad (like literally the way other servers do it) and wanted to change it to what it looks like now.

I think one of Massive's biggest claims to fame here is the Quest plugin. Utilizing that to make a kickass info/tutorial area would make Massive stand out and it would allow you to give useful information without going back to that god awful sign room situation.

MyCatBubbles · Jun 6, 2019

NebulaePrimo said:
General chat can get bad, but there are some specific people you can find in ally chat that... well... in my country, you aren't even allowed to say that stuff. But apparently hate speech is fine as long as the people in general chat can't see it and no one seems to have a problem with that.

thats because you live in a bad country fam, and if we're going to be putting down rules for 'hate speech' it needs to be ridiculously outlined, like if I say "osmainyye gay jeru should rule over" and abc staff doesn't like it for 'Islamophobia' or whatever the hell all the while xyz staff sees it as a harmless meme we're going to have players getting banned for personal opinions (we'd like to avoid that). So unless theres strict guidelines on what is or is not hate speech on the server, it would be safe (unless otherwise outlined what is or isnt hate speech) to just not ban players who spout 'hate speech'

Jalapeno690 · Jun 6, 2019

Violettee said:
I'm confused are these children or high school students? I doubt bad language gets moderated at school. I kinda understand if a parent looks over their teenager's shoulder whilst on a family pc to see something like what Creamiest puts in chat sometimes, why they'd have concerns or bar them from it but at the same time, strict parents and the internet are just never gonna work. Every game out there you're gonna hear or see some sort of cuss, abuse or sexual reference. I don't even think club penguin was safe from that crap. I agree with maybe extending the filter to include more cover ups like Hug and stuff but, it's about all massive can do, like Grumpy said, can't punish people until they've done the crime.

This is getting worse than the "me too" and "I believe her" movements tbh

Zacatero · Jun 6, 2019

Violettee said:
One thing I have to readdress is the lack of traits help inside the server. There is 0 mention of them. Not at kitpvp, not at spawn.
I am desperately holding out on a new more informative spawn.

I think that this is partially because updating things isnt always a priority. That isnt meant as a slight or any form of toxicity, its just my observation. Often times new things are prioritized over updating old ones, and in the end its sometimes just easier to make a new one instead of update the old one. The factions lobby still hasnt been updated to remove the /ah plugin information for example. All of the holograms are exactly how I originally put them, which means anything thats been added since nearly a year ago (I put those in, in June/July of last year) isnt mentioned in the factions lobby. Traits is a perfect example. Traits are definitely something a new person joining the factions environment should know about.

MonMarty · Jun 6, 2019

Zacatero said:
I think one of Massive's biggest claims to fame here is the Quest plugin. Utilizing that to make a kickass info/tutorial area would make Massive stand out and it would allow you to give useful information without going back to that god awful sign room situation.

I know a lot of people have a hard on for using the quest tutorial thing, but I've mostly heard by just asking day 1 new players that they hate the plugin, frequently get stuck and don't understand how to move on with it. We actually lost players in the tutorial quest area by a pretty severe margin.

Violettee · Jun 6, 2019

MonMarty said:
Maybe you could work with Yigit and Spun on making like some sort of draft example in a creative world? You worked real well with them in the past. The information section of Massive has always been garbage. I tried looking at competing servers and build one that combined what was good about those a while back, but for some reason loads of people thought that was bad (like literally the way other servers do it) and wanted to change it to what it looks like now.

I made an example path in creative and Spun took screenshots and took it away somewhere, I threw together a picture of an outside pathway spawn and gave it to zacatero who was working on the tutorial thing at the time, I complaiend about spawn and tutorial a second time and made that doc and I was even allowed to oversee a tavern being built. Blue and I built a little thing for a spawn on his plot with a focus on advertising the warring "sides" and then adapted the idea to the religious houses.

I have communicated everything I can and I have accepted that I need to just sit back and let the staff work. I'm not a very good builder, if I could build the thing myself I would. Like I could try and do a draft but I was under the impression one was already underway and without seeing it (because your staff protocol doesn't permit it) I am not sure where my time is better spent.

MonMarty · Jun 6, 2019

Violettee said:
I have communicated everything I can and I have accepted that I need to just sit back and let the staff work. I'm not a very good builder, if I could build the thing myself I would. Like I could try and do a draft but I was under the impression one was already underway and without seeing it (because your staff protocol doesn't permit it) I am not sure where my time is better spent.

I guess this is one of those cases where the situation is delegated somewhere I don't know. I've never heard of screenshots, or Blue working on anything. That'll be something for Sephite to look into I suppose.

Zacatero · Jun 6, 2019

MonMarty said:
I know a lot of people have a hard on for using the quest tutorial thing, but I've mostly heard by just asking day 1 new players that they hate the plugin, frequently get stuck and don't understand how to move on with it. We actually lost players in the tutorial quest area by a pretty severe margin.

LOL yeah thats because they were terribly written and didn't always work and they weren't repeatable. You can't walk outside, step in dog shit, and then say that you'll never walk outside again lol. You might find that if you looked outside now, there is no dog shit sitting in your path.

I could write a better and much more functional and easy to follow server tutorial within a couple days. It honestly isnt that hard.

MonMarty · Jun 6, 2019

Zacatero said:
LOL yeah thats because they were terribly written and didn't always work and they weren't repeatable. You can't walk outside, step in dog shit, and then say that you'll never walk outside again lol. You might find that if you looked outside now, there is no dog shit sitting in your path.

I could write a better and much more functional and easy to follow server tutorial within a couple days. It honestly isnt that hard.

There is no need to be so aggressive. I don't write Quests, I don't understand the code, I have others do it for me.

Zacatero · Jun 6, 2019

MonMarty said:
There is no need to be so aggressive. I don't write Quests, I don't understand the code, I have others do it for me.

I'm sorry I wasn't meaning to come off aggressive. I totally understand why you would think that Quest isn't a good idea for tutorials since you aren't involved in the quest department and all you can see is all the other attempts failing. My point is that, I do not think that the old versions failed because of the quest plugin. I think it just takes the right quest.

Violettee · Jun 6, 2019

MonMarty said:
I guess this is one of those cases where the situation is delegated somewhere I don't know. I've never heard of screenshots, or Blue working on anything. That'll be something for Sephite to look into I suppose.

The screenshot for the Embassies area on the document I linked was from Blue's plot. We worked on it together and got staff and players to look at it to see if they thought it was a good idea. We only ever submitted things, we never got any actual communication back from staff. And that's all I can do, is submit things and hope they get adopted right?

If the staff can cover the general game mode and all it's features and commands, it's up to the players to create factions people want to be a part of and rally behind.

The tutorial area itself is fine, it's just the way it unfolds and the information it gives that is wrong. I wanted something that showcased the build style and quality that felt more rpish when you walked through. Factions too, I want to feel more like an immersion. It's why I wanted the market to look more like an actual market and have a entrance to a dummy version at spawn that you could walk through to get there.

The last tutorial area was a bland box room full of signs. That's actually when my ranting started. I wanted interactive tutorials with npcs and option to choose races and "houses" even if only cosmetically, little quests to do things and act them out for bob the builder in the tutorial sequence so you had hands on experience doing them. It had to be toddler proof. I wanted a kid to grasp it.

NebulaePrimo · Jun 6, 2019

MyCatBubbles said:
thats because you live in a bad country fam, and if we're going to be putting down rules for 'hate speech' it needs to be ridiculously outlined, like if I say "osmainyye gay jeru should rule over" and abc staff doesn't like it for 'Islamophobia' or whatever the hell all the while xyz staff sees it as a harmless meme we're going to have players getting banned for personal opinions (we'd like to avoid that). So unless theres strict guidelines on what is or is not hate speech on the server, it would be safe (unless otherwise outlined what is or isnt hate speech) to just not ban players who spout 'hate speech'

Oh, absolutely we would need guidelines for that, and we'd all have to be very careful. I feel like naming your fac after a real world location with some contentious history is an odd choice, but I don't think we should go so far as to disallow that, if that's what you really want. There's a difference between your example about osmainyee, which could be interpreted a few ways, and, using your example to explain what I mean: imagine someone posting about how the crusades were the best things ever and how we should do them again and saying stuff worse than that every single day, along with a bunch of clearly racist stuff. I'm not saying we need a politics police, that's one of the last things I want. But there's a difference between a meme that some people might consider offensive, and straight up making really terrible remarks on a daily basis. Like, I don't want to type the really bad examples bc you know some big organization is maybe watching what I type and I don't want them having records of me saying that.

I, too, laugh at political memes and some of them could probably be considered offensive. But if someone wants to make racist jokes on a daily basis, they should consider doing that in a way that doesn't cause 30-some people to see it. Because most people don't want to see that. Some people might hear those things in their daily life, hate hearing them, and want to maybe not hear them when logging on to Minecraft.

Anyway,

I'm not going to talk about this anymore with you, bc I've seen discussions like this before and I know they just never end, and both of us have better things to do. I hope this clears things up a bit.

65jes89 · Jun 6, 2019

NebulaePrimo said:
Oh, absolutely we would need guidelines for that, and we'd all have to be very careful. I feel like naming your fac after a real world location with some contentious history is an odd choice, but I don't think we should go so far as to disallow that, if that's what you really want. There's a difference between your example about osmainyee, which could be interpreted a few ways, and, using your example to explain what I mean: imagine someone posting about how the crusades were the best things ever and how we should do them again and saying stuff worse than that every single day, along with a bunch of clearly racist stuff. I'm not saying we need a politics police, that's one of the last things I want. But there's a difference between a meme that some people might consider offensive, and straight up making really terrible remarks on a daily basis. Like, I don't want to type the really bad examples bc you know some big organization is maybe watching what I type and I don't want them having records of me saying that.

I, too, laugh at political memes and some of them could probably be considered offensive. But if someone wants to make racist jokes on a daily basis, they should consider doing that in a way that doesn't cause 30-some people to see it. Because most people don't want to see that. Some people might hear those things in their daily life, hate hearing them, and want to maybe not hear them when logging on to Minecraft.

Anyway,

I'm not going to talk about this anymore with you, bc I've seen discussions like this before and I know they just never end, and both of us have better things to do. I hope this clears things up a bit.

I think you're a little overly sensitive to some of those things you mentioned bud

MyCatBubbles · Jun 7, 2019

NebulaePrimo said:
Oh, absolutely we would need guidelines for that, and we'd all have to be very careful. I feel like naming your fac after a real world location with some contentious history is an odd choice, but I don't think we should go so far as to disallow that, if that's what you really want. There's a difference between your example about osmainyee, which could be interpreted a few ways, and, using your example to explain what I mean: imagine someone posting about how the crusades were the best things ever and how we should do them again and saying stuff worse than that every single day, along with a bunch of clearly racist stuff.

I agree pretty much with all you said in regards to massive, it's a poor business decision to allow players to be raging racist assholes all the while it's a poor decision to disallow people to say things you disagree with. I think massive as it currently stands is all good in where it is currently. I think a lot of players would agree with me if I said massive is in a perfect sweet spot with the right to say things you don't agree with and has a good grip on not allowing people to drop 14/88's and swastikas in chat and be general assholes.

The whole issue I have though is that people like thinking those they disagree with are dog whistling, when I say things like 'osmaniyee gay jeru rule over xddd', I'm not saying 'chrischan good mooselam bad xd xd xd'. If we want to be safe and fair we have to take what people say literally and don't look for 'deeper meaning' and punish based on that, which massive isn't doing thankfully.

NebulaePrimo said:
I'm not going to talk about this anymore with you, bc I've seen discussions like this before and I know they just never end, and both of us have better things to do. I hope this clears things up a bit.

I'm not here to argue or shut down dialogue (If I'm wrongfully under the assumption that that's what you were thinking I apologize). I'm under the assumption that people genuinely do agree with a lot of things, it's just with how they agree on it, for example: American's want fewer gun deaths/crime, some want more guns in law abiding citizens hands where some want less guns, they both agree though they want fewer deaths/crime.

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3 some of it

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