Character Resurrection Discussion

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No. It is implied in Marty's solution that under such a system, kill perms would be slackened or removed to promote the new idea of resurrection. Removing kill perms but at the same time making resurrection rare or hard to acquire makes everyone suffer the disadvantages of not being able to opt-out of their character's maiming, injury, death, etc. while at the same time choking everyone's access to the feature part of the system.

In short, the system cannot function if everyone has the ability to fire the crossbow's bolt point-blank at another character's head yet only some have the ability to bring their character back from such a death. This is the worst-case scenario out of the scale of "bad," "worse," and "worst".
Oof okay so, This was posted at the same time as I was responding to Billy's thing on the kill perms. Which I had actually totally glossed over. Yeah, I don't believe the current kill perm rules should be changed, even with this resurrection idea.
 
I disagree with character resurrection

I see the appeal, and while the current system isn't perfect I think a resurrection system would even worse. I find it far too abusable, and I think it'll just make risky roleplay stale rather than inviting. as for making a system that encourages higher risk roleplaying, I have a few ideas of my own, but I'm not sure sharing them here would be appropriate so I'll keep them to myself for now.
 
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No. It is implied in Marty's solution that under such a system, kill perms would be slackened or removed to promote the new idea of resurrection. Removing kill perms but at the same time making resurrection rare or hard to acquire makes everyone suffer the disadvantages of not being able to opt-out of their character's maiming, injury, death, etc. while at the same time choking everyone's access to the feature part of the system.

In short, the system cannot function if everyone has the ability to fire the crossbow's bolt point-blank at another character's head yet only some have the ability to bring their character back from such a death. This is the worst-case scenario out of the scale of "bad," "worse," and "worst".
Maybe I could concede that maintaining the current system but allowing for ultra-rare resurrections would be an improvement, but this would need to have some kind of feature that would prevent people from contemplating letting their character die with the intent of having their character resurrected.

In other words, I would only favor a system that allows for people to be resurrected from deaths they allow to happen spontaneously and in the moment, as opposed to ones that are premeditated. If Billy and I premeditate an assassination attempt on William Coen at the hands of the dastardly and cunning Altalar Selwynn Crassian with the intention of having Billy apply for a resurrection afterward, that should be a no-go. If Selwynn and William get into an argument and William backhands Selwynn into next Tuesday, thereby killing the poor downtrodden and so-easily victimized Elf, I think it'd be cool to reward me spontaneously giving Billy kill perms with allowing me to bring my character back.

All in-character scenarios are hypothetically hypothetical.
 
In general, I disagree with character resurrection. I think it would be interesting if characters were brought back, but I'd want them to be returned via the three main options that are currently available: magical reincarnation for a good reason (by an Arken, like Ott), reincarnation with the use of Undeadism, or becoming a Witchblood. I think that the use of a resurrection system would, of course, have good intentions that would eventually be misused or abused. Characters should only be brought back because of real needed reasons, like Freya Lo (though this is under the whole "undead" and all.) I will say though, lame off screen deaths are some reasons people don't want to be involved with character murder, if it's not a rule already I think characters that are suppose to be killed by guards or are doing so major bad act shouldn't be killed on scene unless it's for good reason. Otherwise, grandeur executions are always fun.
 
Maybe I could concede that maintaining the current system but allowing for ultra-rare resurrections would be an improvement, but this would need to have some kind of feature that would prevent people from contemplating letting their character die with the intent of having their character resurrected.

In other words, I would only favor a system that allows for people to be resurrected from deaths they allow to happen spontaneously and in the moment, as opposed to ones that are premeditated. If Billy and I premeditate an assassination attempt on William Coen at the hands of the dastardly and cunning Altalar Selwynn Crassian with the intention of having Billy apply for a resurrection afterward, that should be a no-go. If Selwynn and William get into an argument and William backhands Selwynn into next Tuesday, thereby killing the poor downtrodden and so-easily victimized Elf, I think it'd be cool to reward me spontaneously giving Billy kill perms with allowing me to bring my character back.

All in-character scenarios are hypothetically hypothetical.
Someone suggested the longer the person is dead the easier it becomes in some fashion, maybe even with a mandatory minimum time to resurrect thing so people dont just gut-impulse res a character without considering it. It would also make kills still hold some value because your taking a character out of the situation for a month+.
 
I disagree with character resurrection

I see the appeal, and while the current system isn't perfect I think a resurrection system would even worse. I find it far too abusable, and I think it'll just make risky roleplay stale rather than inviting. as for making a system that encourages higher risk roleplaying, I have a few ideas of my own, but I'm not sure sharing them here would be appropriate so I'll keep them to myself for now.
bumped because I decided to actually state my opinion and so changed my original reply to do so.
 
I disagree with having a resurrection system.

But only because, for the moment, I wasn't convinced that I won't have death RP forced on me. By the looks of the post, kill perms would become a lot more loose. So what if I'm in the sewers with a beloved character and someone decides that I've snooped on them and this is grounds for killing? Maybe it's paranoid but hypothetical situations that I might be in volved in are what come to mind. Things like: What if I and person B have decided not to kill each other and to just enjoy a brawl, but person C steps in and decides to kill me because "you attacked my friend!" The security I'd feel in being able to do things without someone else deciding I'd crossed a line would be so threatened that I'd be afraid to partake in risky rp because now death is a possibility, and I wouldn't have a say in it. Or, my say would be lessened. The opt given in the post is "if you don't want to be killed you don't have to give kill perms but you also won't be given rez perms." To me, this reads as "if I never hurt anybody but my character dies in some other way like in a war or doing something for the sake of progression, then I also have no chance of coming back." So if I never killed anyone else, but because I never wanted to die, that compromise makes me think I wouldn't get rez perms. That compromise given seems counterintuitive on paper, and would need tweaking before I would feel comfortable agreeing. I would also be very concerned about the proficiency system getting my character killed if someone else insisted that their high amont of points in some weapon meant that they insist my character should be killed at their whim. Unfortunately I don't have solutions for these issues, so for the time being I disagree.

Also I've seen characters acting out because of the deaths of their friends this year, kind of recently, but they were not particularly well known in the noble circuit. They were more of the slum dweller types who were executed by guards or in progression. And while it didn't affect the whole of Regalian court politics, it did have a lasting effect on the characters who knew them.

Ultimately I think my concerns are not for "I want the freedom to be able to move forward with plots that involve death" and are more in line with "I want the freedom to walk around with my character and not have them taken from me at someone else's decision." Both are concerned with realism and player feelings, and both are valid, but neither should be overlooked for the sake of the other. The way the post sounds, there would need to be steep penalties in place even for resurrection. So if you remove some kill perm limitations, that means that even if I get resurrected I'd be faced with penalty. To me this is contradictory, at first reading. Is it open enough that someone shouldn't be worried that the kill perms will be relaxed? Or is it penalized enough that people won't go around without fear of death? Because I don't see a balance between those two yet, I disagree with it. But that isn't to say I wouldn't agree in the future, after more discussion.
 
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Preface: I disagree with having character resurrections. I believe that the system is just fine the way it is and that having character resurrections are going to benefit a niche group of people, as well as causing more problems than it'd solve in the first place. And that's not to mention kill any sort of compelling narratives surrounding high-risk situations. Now, keep in mind this is all my opinion, and you all are entitled to yours, and it may or may not change if the system is to be tweaked, but as it stands now, I believe it will not be beneficial. Now that I've prefaced with that, let's get into it!
Metagaming: This new system would have an extremely high potential for metagaming and abuse. Someone could avoid consequences ICly and OOCly by hiding behind such a system. I feel that those who would previously not give kill perms may, but not quite in a good way. They'd use the revival as a way to completely ignore any sort of potential roleplay striving out from misdeeds, instead opting to "just kill them, I can have them come back anyway." I feel that if this were to go into place, there would need to be strict measures in deciding who "gets" to have their character revived and who does not based upon time played (as to avoid throw-away characters and misuse), proof that the character died not of their own wishes/own fault (as to avoid people acting without fear of consequence), if it would even fit the character and world as a whole meaning there'd need to be a set number or cap similar to the one with silven and mages (as to not have Regalia completely full of these abominations and the likes, as it wouldn't quite make sense) and measures against impure usage of this (bringing back old characters and claiming they're new, or lying about how they died). To get back to the point of this point, I believe that this system would require a lot of "policing" and "babysitting"- due to its capability for misuse- that may not be enjoyable for either side, staff and player. Alongside this, I feel as if it lessens the impact of deaths in a way, leaving them as just another death.
Atmosphere: While this may not matter to others, it most certainly does to me. The atmosphere of a roleplay helps to drive my decision making and willingness to go down certain routes. I feel that if removing death- permanence, we're removing the "fun" that comes from risky situations. It makes a situation more meaningful to a player and can lead to a more positive experience in roleplay. I feel that if we put this system into place, we're dissolving that atmosphere and compelling twists and that come with trying to get out- or in some cases in- a certain situation. And, as for the whole "if they can't kill me, I can't kill them", this would likely have to be on a character to character basis. As quite honestly, I'd rather not have my nobles be brought back, as it doesn't suit them nor the scene they're in and I'm sure others feel the same. However, some may want to have their commoners available for ressurection and not their nobles, so how would we keep track of that?
Story: As I stated, there's a sort of "rush" (for lack of a better term) that can come with getting into trouble and causing chaos in character, and the consequences make for a compelling narrative both ICly and OOCly as whether we like to admit it or not, OOC rules can, and do, tend to seep into and drive our IC actions. Consequences and drive in-character development of morals, beliefs, and general outlooks. I'll give an example: My Altalar, Aaminah, upon seeing another person die in front of her very eyes had a sort of awakening. She realized the true consequences of her retorts, insults, and guard disobeying. She feels as if in order to save her own hide and avoid death she must try to make amends with the guards. I, as a player, see this as interesting and fun. However, if there was an option to revive her, she and I would likely give no care towards such a narrative. While this does seem rather specific, I'm trying to provide some context and meat to my bones of an opinion.
 
I disagree with character resurrection


1) Do we really need character to be able to kill each other to create high stakes roleplay?

I'd say no. In fact, having interactions where characters rough each other up without the ability to kill or maim creates relationships, drives revenge-reconcilliation arcs. You name it. The system works fine as is.

Because death/maim is permission based, it has caused players to work harder and be more creative AND determined when it comes to skirmishes and revenge.

2) There are already 2 balanced niches for players who want to revive their characters: Undead and Witchblood.

If you're really hellbent on letting characters kill each other, just allow the killed character to become an Undead, and accept the drawbacks that come with it. Instant story arc that's already pre-balanced and explained in lore.

In my opinion, letting characters be preserved by their players unless the logic of the situation demands it is a-okay.

3) Resurrection is not a solution to cowardly players.

Especially if it means maims. Isn't the point of a resurrection/revoking kill perms that your beloved character can die and be revived without penalty? Making resurrections costly literally subverts the whole point. It's just not a good idea: it's impossible to make balanced, and if staff have to intervene every single time, people will scream "bias".
 
After consideration of the almost perfect 50-50 split in opinions as of yet, my motivation to keep the discussion going has been sapped. In response to the many replies, I have come to the conclusion that the draft presented for discussion had a lot of inherent issues that I didn't even want to work around, and I'd like to thank the replies for reminding me of that fact. The purpose of this thread was to allow for an open discussion to take place (because previously we always assumed that my way was the right way) and I feel as short as it lasted, it has verified that my way is the right way.

That being said. I would also like to remind those who do feel like their rezzing plight is now crushed, that character resurrection has been in lore since forever. Some characters like Glenn Valium were resurrected numerous times, and even in the most recent progression. Sophie Perrot was resurrected after a few months of death. These were not really mandated per se, that's to say, there was no system behind it. Perhaps there was an error in how the proposal was suggested in the form of a serialization of lore that already exists instead of a flat rule change, but it doesn't super matter anymore at this point.

What does matter is that I intend to take a few things from this thread and keep them in mind for future resurrection clauses. Not necessarily stating that the process is going to be made easier, but perhaps as a means to remind the players that it does exist, and has happened before, if the circumstances were right, and where to look for it if they were trying to find it.

The matter of lack of player initiative in risky endeavors continues to be a struggle even after this post, but that is a matter to be discussed at a later time I also feel. I will be locking this thread now.
 
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