Archived Capitalizing On Chorus Fruit Mechanics

[MokeDuck]

Capitalizing on Chorus Fruit Mechanics To Improve Engagement.
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I want to quickly identify a problem. Because of the game's age, players now know most of the tricks, especially pertaining to getting inside bases and the prevention of those tricks. This means raids are easily avoidable, but more importantly the current situation is that a raid is in reality a conscious agreement between two parties to fight. This means combat is mostly a very controlled fight between players that predominantly just PvP. One can argue that some players don't want to fight, but refusing to make massive more competitive in order to cater to a few players is absurd. Massive obviously lacks endgame engagement.

Therefore, I want to suggest an important improvement that must be made. An automatic system must be put in place in order to allow any faction to be raided, regardless of the playstyle of the faction. In addition, it should be implemented in such a way that favors heavily the raided faction. Ideally, the system should also be novel and new, so its more fun and engaging.​

So, as a solution I would like to suggest that we enable chorus fruit. Then, in order to give the advantage to anyone getting raided, we should create a rising edge cooldown to chorus fruit based on the movement of the person using it. What is that? Its what is currently implemented with traits: You have to stay still for a certain amount of time before using a chorus fruit. In essence, it means that if you remain undisturbed for, say, 2 minutes, you can teleport to a random place around you, like inside a faction. Now, the most important part of this is that in order to start the timer, you need to be in an enemy faction territory and that faction must have an configurable number of people on the factions server. In addition, there should be some sort of notification that informs the raided faction of where the raider is, so they can easily go out to disturb the 2 minute cooldown.
As a side note, I think the best way to capitalize on this and encourage it would be to disable elytra rockets and enderpearls, but that would have other widespread effects as well.
As another side note, if it is thought that this would be too overpowered/overused, one can just stop chorus fruit from growing naturally and instead give it out rarely or moderately rarely. Perhaps a ChorusFruit4all. Idk.​

I believe this is the best solution because:

It makes raiding accessible to everyone.
It gives an opportunity to prevent a raid to defenders without requiring them to defeat/kill anyone.
It respects builds on the server and makes them worthwhile but not impenetrable
It makes use of pre-existing mechanics and pre-existing functionality of the traits plugin in order to make coding simpler.
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And I have presented this before. I wanted to re-present this because the current system proposed addresses all concerns, barring the silly ridiculous one "it'll be abused!" and the obvious one "The (PLUGIN NAME HERE *cough*MarrigePlugin) takes priority right now.

Anyways, thanks. I hope this is of some use.

 

[MokeDuck]

Objections Made:
-1 Common one from last thread: It can be abused to go through solid walls
-2 "Lockpicking," or a percent chance to open doors would be better.
-3 People will still make their bases unraidable
Objections Addressed:
-1 Yes that's the point
-2 Chorus fruit is better than lockpicking because it should be able to be used at any spot in an enemy build.
-3 Factions that make their bases unraidable will not only make things much more inconvenient for themselves but also would be very clearly and deliberately unraidable, and therefore rules can be made if the unraidable bases get out of hand, similar to enderpearl rules currently.

Oh I just noticed my previous suggestion pertaining to this one was marked as rejected. I didn't see why specifically though, and it was from like 4 months ago, so I wanted to re-present this.

@Viscar @hardname12 @Ieso @Winterless @MyCatBubbles @derpadillo @Jalapeno690 @Violettee @Alj23 @65jes89 @onearmsquid
@idkAddMorePeople

 

[Ninja124r]

c h o r u s f r u I t

 

[MokeDuck]

c h o r u s f r u I t

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R a I d p l u g I n

Oh lol I'm on a phone and I was wondering why you capitalized the I

 

[ANT1D0T3]

no

 

[ShadowMaster779]

That doesn't seem too bad. I'm not much for raiding, but I agree how some people make their places basically unraidable and something like this whether it be exactly this or similar will help to make every faction at least slightly more raidable.

 

[MyCatBubbles]

ngl arent people just gonna /tp regalia. forcing combat against players who dont want it will not allow for more pvp freedom, its just gonna bully people to dip out of the factions world all together

im not against the use of chorus fruit though. its in the game so we might aswell use it, if elytras are the norm now i guess that can be too

 

[MokeDuck]

ngl arent people just gonna /tp regalia. forcing combat against players who dont want it will not allow for more pvp freedom, its just gonna bully people to dip out of the factions world all together

im not against the use of chorus fruit though. its in the game so we might aswell use it, if elytras are the norm now i guess that can be too

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People, in my experience, have never quit a game just because people opposed them in the game. They might quit a game because it's not hard enough. Your point is valid, but why should we even enable PvP at all? Its perfectly fine to cater to people that don't want to PvP, but why not just go all the way and, like other servers, just make it so you can switch PvP on or off. Staying in Regalia isn't much different from staying indoors.

I hope we can expect a similar result from this as we did from KoTH. Even when you lost your items, people still fought in trash gear because they could still achieve something. In the system I'm proposing it would only take one person with nothing but their fist to sufficiently defend a faction.

 

[MokeDuck]

no

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thanks for your input

 

[Boogjangels]

I'm kind of a radical when it comes to this subject, so you already know I'm all for everything you've put forward in this suggestion, however, I wanna take it one step further: enable overclaim!

Staff keep going around cutting back extended claims when that's incredibly unnecessary. Overclaim is a function that literally every other faction server uses because it weeds out the dead factions and encourages player conflict. I'll put it like this; very few of us enjoy pvping for fun, but imagine how many more would join in if there was a chance to get loot?

I also wanna say that I like our system where factions are required to have contiguous claims, so I dont want to get rid of that. Instead, I'd rather see a function implemented where raiding factions can unclaim chunks if the target faction's power is low enough.

 

[Zacatero]

I mean... There's really no guarantee you would even go through the wall, so the time you are spending eating 5 chorus fruit before you actually get free the wall gives the enemy time to prepare or move.

I don't think it will be abused because I don't really see how it can be

 

[MokeDuck]

I mean... There's really no guarantee you would even go through the wall, so the time you are spending eating 5 chorus fruit before you actually get free the wall gives the enemy time to prepare or move.

I don't think it will be abused because I don't really see how it can be

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I think on the last post was the misunderstanding that I didn't think chorus fruit could go through walls. Idk tho

 

[Zacatero]

I think on the last post was the misunderstanding that I didn't think chorus fruit could go through walls. Idk tho

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from what I understand, and I've never actually used chorus fruit outside of when it was first released because I don't really play Minecraft outside of massive.. I think it sends you like three or four blocks in a random direction. So you have the chance of going through a wall if the inside of the building is three blocks away from you or whatever

 

[Jalapeno690]

Opens up a new market entirely

 

[MokeDuck]

from what I understand, and I've never actually used chorus fruit outside of when it was first released because I don't really play Minecraft outside of massive.. I think it sends you like three or four blocks in a random direction. So you have the chance of going through a wall if the inside of the building is three blocks away from you or whatever

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It puts you in a 16x16x16 cube, on a solid block which has 2 air blocks above it. According to @derpadillo standing right against a 1 block thick wall would give you a 40% chance of spawning on the other side

 

[MokeDuck]

@Violettee added your suggestion of making it a rarer handout as a side note.

 

[65jes89]

yea this won't change anything. it is not a valid replacement for ender pearls, which have more usage for pvp than that. if we want to force people into being raided, there are much better ways to do it then this. invis pots, a dtr system, etc., would all be much preferable to having someone randomly appear next to me while I'm semi-afk in my storage.

 

[Jalapeno690]

Tbf I basically stopped playing on other servers since I started on massive in 2014 or 2015, except for a certain anarchy server which had a cow youtuber I don't have much knowledge of what is out there now in 2019, the idea sounds good, any links to this in action???

 

[Boogjangels]

yea this won't change anything. it is not a valid replacement for ender pearls, which have more usage for pvp than that. if we want to force people into being raided, there are much better ways to do it then this. invis pots, a dtr system, etc., would all be much preferable to having someone randomly appear next to me while I'm semi-afk in my storage.

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On further contemplation, I'd agree that removing enderpearls is a bit much, but I don't see any reason why we couldn't add both chorus fruit and invis pots. I still think the only reason invis pots are disabled is to keep people from meta-gaming in Regalia, so if you really want them enabled (which I think most people do), we first gotta find a way to make them unusable in Regalia.

 

[Zacatero]

I think the general consensus about invisibility potions was that nobody would really have a problem with them as long as engaging in combat would disable them.

if that were the case, I don't think anybody would have a problem with invisibility potions

 

[65jes89]

I still think the only reason invis pots are disabled is to keep people from meta-gaming in Regalia, so if you really want them enabled (which I think most people do), we first gotta find a way to make them unusable in Regalia.

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That's not the case; Massivecombat has allowed a system for disabling invis pots on a per-world basis since it was written.

Still, I'd rather have neither than chorus fruit tbh. I'm all for forcing raids, but it shouldn't be done in a way that has literally 0 counterplay, like chorus fruit.

 

[MyCatBubbles]

stuff

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I think you sorta missed my point. My point was legit that this whole thread is around to bully people who don't really want to get into pvp. I personally believe we should open doors to get more normie players into pvp with things like kit. Unnaturally forcing them to fight big dog pvpers with lockpicking etc. while they just want to chill inside their shack and smelt crap and get some og cash isn't going to grow the factions community, it'll just stagnate it.

 

[Winterless]

kit

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[Violettee]

@Violettee added your suggestion of making it a rarer handout as a side note.

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As for chorus fruit... sounds like a bad idea. Unless you get rewarded a 1 time use of one for winning some competition. (and) Could it perhaps be modified to behave a certain way? - Discord

Should Bases be raidable?

Yes. I've always been a firm believer that if you choose to exist in the Faction's world you opt yourself into PVP.
Even if only from a defense standpoint.
Factions across all servers, not just our own, means that you will be entering a hostile environment with the intention to build something you will later defend or make alliances with someone who will defend it for you in exchange for something that benefits them.

On the flip side there are townie servers for people who want to run homesteads in a somewhat peaceful environment (minus the mobs) and enjoy what is close enough to single player survival minecraft - with friends!

Our server, tries too often to meet somewhere in the middle in order to appeal to a larger, more mixed audience. They have done this by disabling TNT and the ability to break blocks any other way as well as laying down various laws.
This has resulted, as you've mentioned, in a very uneventful faction's world. Now, we don't want to start being able to blow up or deface anyone's builds as most servers allow. This would cause a decrease in high quality builds or they would be moved entirely underground. So this I assume is where your Chorus fruit comes in.

Should Chorus Fruit be introduced?

Currently pearls are used to exploit build flaws. These however, as you've addressed, are rare.
Even Fireballs get used from time to time in a bid to reach those behind doors and walls.
Now, I don't know if I'm confident Chorus Fruit should be the solution to this problem, but something needs to be. If Chorus Fruit were the solution, it is a question of how many get injected into the server. I've seen many of you mention you can tp anywhere within a 16x16 radius, and to achieve your goal could take up to multiple fruit in one sitting.
Then it's a question of luck, whether you end up in a space giving you access to vital areas players cannot ignore you in, and must seek ways of removing you as a threat - or if you end up in one of those vacant hotel rooms with the door firmly shut. (you know the ones I'm talking about)

Let's say we go with Chorus Fruit. Should and can it be modified to behave in a certain way? Example: Will always go forwards x Blocks. Meaning less would needed to be introduced at a time.
Chorus fruit would also be a good incentive for people attending events.
Due to the rarity of the item, smaller factions need not fear a break in as PVPers would reserve such an item on an operation giving them a higher kill count (more loot). Surely no one disagrees that bigger factions should be able to handle themselves if they get infiltrated? Depending on the planning and rarity, there might not be more than 2-3 people getting in this way in a single raid.

So, as a solution I would like to suggest that we enable chorus fruit. Then, in order to give the advantage to anyone getting raided, we should create a rising edge cooldown to chorus fruit based on the movement of the person using it. What is that? Its what is currently implemented with traits: You have to stay still for a certain amount of time before using a chorus fruit. In essence, it means that if you remain undisturbed for, say, 2 minutes, you can teleport to a random place around you, like inside a faction. Now, the most important part of this is that in order to start the timer, you need to be in an enemy faction territory and that faction must have an configurable number of people on the factions server. In addition, there should be some sort of notification that informs the raided faction of where the raider is, so they can easily go out to disturb the 2 minute cooldown.

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As a side note, I think the best way to capitalize on this and encourage it would be to disable elytra rockets and enderpearls, but that would have other widespread effects as well.

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^All of this isn't necessary.

 

[Violettee]

@MokeDuck I suggest changing your title to something to do with the benefits of implementing Chorus Fruit.
We have a thousand of these vague titles on the suggestions thread to do with raiding and pvp.

 

[Winterless]

Surely no one disagrees that bigger factions should be able to handle themselves if they get infiltrated?

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Depends- some factions rely on their defenses and builds to PvP effectively, due to a numbers problem or lack of gear or whatever

Essentially mitigating defenses cause of chorus fruit isn't particularly fair imo

A DTR system would be far better- where you get punished as a defender for dying and thus making your base accessible

 

[Violettee]

A DTR system would be far better- where you get punished as a defender for dying and thus making your base accessible

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Have anything I can view to see how exactly this would play out?

 

[Zacatero]

I mean I'd love to see traps made. Somebody thinks they're chorus fruit teleporting into a building and it turns out it's just a pit inside and they fall to their death? Stuff like that? Would that make it any better if people did stuff like that

 

[Winterless]

Have anything I can view to see how exactly this would play out?

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Been tryna find videos for it but basically it's a system where if you a faction gets enough deaths (e.g. 3 or 4) they will become "raidable"

On HCF servers this means all of their containers and buildables are accessible by other players which obviously Massive wouldn't do- but we could augment it so that it makes doors on faction territory accessible to other players until their DTR regenerates.

 

[Violettee]

On HCF servers this means all of their containers and buildables are accessible by other players which obviously Massive wouldn't do- but we could augment it so that it makes doors on faction territory accessible to other players until their DTR regenerates.

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I like the sound of that, but again, goes back to if people would just hide inside. It's the same people that hide that we want to get into. So wouldn't work for that.

 

[Winterless]

I like the sound of that, but again, goes back to if people would just hide inside. It's the same people that hide that we want to get into. So wouldn't work for that.

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Preferably such a system would work well if you surprised raided a faction and they had noobs outside

But there definitely does need to be a way to breach defences without that I agree- I wish there was a way to make temporary griefing that restored itself with cannons but I've been told that it's unfeasible for various reasons

 

[Violettee]

Preferably such a system would work well if you surprised raided a faction and they had noobs outside

But there definitely does need to be a way to breach defences without that I agree- I wish there was a way to make temporary griefing that restored itself with cannons but I've been told that it's unfeasible for various reasons

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I've heard about that, where it rebuilds itself. I wonder if it'd be something we can look into in the future, just... not now I guess.
People might argue it'd push players away if they could get raided at any point like that but, honestly shouldn't it encourage players to get gear and put up a fight? Maybe make it hard to get the means to break in that way... kinda like in Rust. As long as your base is segmented in some way and your fhome isn't the very first room.

 

[MokeDuck]

Depends- some factions rely on their defenses and builds to PvP effectively, due to a numbers problem or lack of gear or whatever

Essentially mitigating defenses cause of chorus fruit isn't particularly fair imo

A DTR system would be far better- where you get punished as a defender for dying and thus making your base accessible

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I would argue that Chorus Fruit makes defensively built factions more effective. Factions would, granted, need to upgrade their defenses, but afterward the defenses are more of a spectrum going from good to bad instead of just a yes-no sorta dealio.

I don't understand what you mean by

A DTR system would be far better- where you get punished as a defender for dying and thus making your base accessible

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so sorry about that, but the purpose of a timer announcement mechanic and the rule regarding online players is that (since otherwise most bases are safe) defenders would still be able to easily protect their bases or just log out/play in Regalia. Considering massive currently has 4 other gamemodes that do not involve PvP, I don't think introducing the potential to get properly raided actually can be thought of as "bullying people off the server" @MyCatBubbles . My own faction and PvP skills are certainly not in a position to do any bullying, and I hope you'll take my word for it when I say my intent is entirely to make massive more fun and engaging for everyone.

 

[Winterless]

My own faction and PvP skills are certainly not in a position to do any bullying, and I hope you'll take my word for it when I say my intent is entirely to make massive more fun and engaging for everyone.

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Plenty of people are in a position to and actively do that- making them able to phase through walls with little to no trouble would be a problem.

 

[Winterless]

People might argue it'd push players away if they could get raided at any point like that but, honestly shouldn't it encourage players to get gear and put up a fight?

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It's clear to me that our current approach to raiding and factions interaction isn't working so we may as well try it tbh

 

[ANT1D0T3]

People might argue it'd push players away if they could get raided at any point like that but, honestly shouldn't it encourage players to get gear and put up a fight?

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what about people who actually are not able to pvp due to computer stuff. are we just doing a screw them they should have the right things or ,,

I mean the question sounds really stupid but i know some people on survival who use a trackpad and have no mouse, I'm curious if throwing everyone into pvp would be a good idea for them

 

[MokeDuck]

what about people who actually are not able to pvp due to computer stuff. are we just doing a screw them they should have the right things or ,,

I mean the question sounds really stupid but i know some people on survival who use a trackpad and have no mouse, I'm curious if throwing everyone into pvp would be a good idea for them

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Massive should, under NO circumstances, make sacrifices in order to appeal to players that use a trackpad. Also, I want to re-iterate that the required effort to repel an attack would ideally amount to berserker rushing them with minimal armor every 2/3 minutes. Thats what I'm comfortable with forcing on players. I think any more would be too hard and would, to the points of most people here, push people away from factions. I'm also counting on the fact that people will try to protect the person with the chorus fruit in a KoTH-type fashion, just cause the mechanics of this are very KoTH-like.

 

[Winterless]

Massive should, under NO circumstances, make sacrifices in order to appeal to players that use a trackpad.

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Gotta agree with this tbh

Honestly if you don't have a mouse at this point it's kind of a you problem

 

[MokeDuck]

Gotta agree with this tbh

Honestly if you don't have a mouse at this point it's kind of a you problem

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on that note, I think that whatever type of player Massivecraft appeals to the most should be considered the norm. I think thats a reasonable assertion. In that case, We need to stop pretending that PvP is involved with Massive's factions. Its just really a side thing you can do on the server, and will continue to be a separate side thing. I think thats not really a good approach when your server is marketed as a factions server. Other than PvP, there are three other playstyles that massive obviously tries to protect and encorage: building, survival, and faction politics. Faction politics is just a recruitment grind, and is really not a lot of fun, and everything else faction related is based on PvP and raid, which are minimal. Building is great, which is why chorus fruit is the best basis for a raid plugin: it respects the build of the players.

 

[Winterless]

In that case, We need to stop pretending that PvP is involved with Massive's factions

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Hard disagree

PvP underpins and largely defines the history of Massive Factions

Not all of the PvP factions are powerful and renowned, but every powerful and renowned faction bar none in Massive's history have been PvP factions or factions heavily invested into PvP.

And what do you think underpins politics on Massive? Violence and the threat of force underpins every political interaction, especially in a small system like Massive