Archived Alterations To Premium Perks

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Mecharic

Mecharic

I'm tempermental, deal with it.
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Forward:

So many threads I've seen and participated in that complain about the premium skills and "Overpoweredness". Well, I haven't seen many threads that exist to help balance premium perks and better meld the premium abilities into the Massivecraft theme of roleplay. So I've created this thread to serve that purpose. If such a thread has already been created feel free to (as an admin) post a link to it and close this thread. To all those who seek to post comments in my thread: THIS IS NOT A BITCH ABOUT PREMIUM THREAD! If you are dumb enough to make it into such a thread I will have it closed down and will be disappointed in the lot of you. Now, on the to thread...

As stated in the title, this thread is about alterations that could be made to premium perks. The current premium perks are as follows:
Massivecraft said:
  • Join servers even if they are full
  • Craft and wear diamond armor (only premium members can)
  • Open your huge backpack using /bp.
  • Open a portable workbench using /wb.
  • Faction power doubled. You get 20 instead of 10
  • Faction power regeneration speed doubled
  • Keep backpack items on death (always)
  • Keep armor slots on death (always)
  • Keep inventory items unless you attacked someone within 30s
  • Keep xp level (always)
  • Keep xp progress unless you attacked someone within 30s
  • Create portal gates
  • Build and fire cannons
  • Wear any block as a hat
  • MCMMO cooldowns reduced to 50%
  • Craft horse armor (when 1.6 is released)
  • Craft and use name tags (when 1.6 is released)
  • Get double money drops from mobs
  • Display another players money using /money balance <player>
  • Display the money top list using /money top silver [page=1]
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These are the perks being discussed in this thread. The perks in red are the ones I feel should be left out of this thread as they have minimal relevance to the true topic of the thread. That leaves the following perks, which are the most influential in the conflict:

  • Craft and wear diamond armor (only premium members can)
  • Build and fire cannons
  • MCMMO cooldowns reduced to 50%
  • Craft horse armor (when 1.6 is released)
  • Craft and use name tags (when 1.6 is released)
Now, I personally proposed the following alterations in another thread:

  1. Diamond Armor - Give this to everyone. There is nothing roleplay accurate about only premiums being able to use diamond armor and everyone knows it. The feature is literally a pay-to-win feature and shouldn't even be considered under the current standing proclamations by the server administration. And if premiums get pissy at first they will soon accept it when they start killing non prems and getting sets of diamond armor they can then use for themselves.
  2. MCMMO Cooldowns - ahahaha no. Premiums should have to wait like everyone else - indeed, they should have to wait longer since the rich and powerful weren't exactly the most skilled at survival tasks like woodcutting or mining.
  3. RolePlay Based Perks - There should be perks that are based on roleplay rather then pvp.
    1. Names - Premiums could be able to change their IG nametag to suit their RP character. For example, I would be Mr.Paloin instead of Mecharic (only in Local Chat mind you). This would definitely make it easier for Roleplay to Occur if possible to code.
    2. Item-Carry - This is probably way too complex to be possible, but if it is Premiums should be given the ability to have an item in their hotbar and type /holditem to have it go in their hand like if it was on a wall (for example, torches. You type /holditem and it gives off light and looks like you're holding a real wall-torch). An item in /holditem could be either dual (meaning it goes to the hand not used for tools/blocks) or single (meaning it prevents use of another item). Would be AWESOME for roleplay.
    3. Specialty Items - Craft yourself a pipe or a cane, then use the /holditem feature to use it in a realistic manner!
      1. Pipe - 3 stick with a wood block above the end (either will do).
      2. Cane - 3 sticks in a horizontal manner.
      3. Latern - Redstone Light in the middle, lever on the top.
      4. Hats - Realistic hats made by putting 3 blocks of Wool, Wheat, or Leather on the bottom and then 1 block of the same substance in the middle and on top.
      5. Statue - 3 stone blocks on the bottom, 2 stone brick on top. Creates a random statue of a mob/Steve/important players. (this could even be a standalone for decor).
  4. Horses & Armor - I do not see the value in preventing normal players who may very well be richer then their premium counterparts from crafting and equipping horse armor - even if it is a massivecraft plugin
And I will now add to these alterations the following:
  1. Cannons - Anyone should be able to build a cannon.
I cannot think of any other ideas at this time (y u no work brain?!?!?!) but I'm sure you folks of massivecraft can! What I hope we ALL aim for is something that meets the standards of Massivecraft and aims towards supporting the goal of Massivecraft, which is to be a RolePlay server. That means that ideas posted here should attempt to meet the following:
  1. Have some effect on the Role Play aspect of Massivecraft.
  2. Not cause the server become a Pay to Win or Pay to Play server.
  3. Not cause the server to lose it's entire premium base.
  4. Not enhance premium to the point of obnoxious.
Good Thinking, Massivecrafters, and may Notch watch over you! Remember to be polite and courteous to all posts regardless of personal thoughts on them - all ideas are welcome, after all.

~Mecharic - Part Time Drunk, Full Time Banker​
 
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justin5191 said:
What you are either purposely leaving out or forgetting is that any mob with a name tag doesn't despawn.
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Actually, I didn't purposely leave that out or forget it. That feature was included in what I said. I could name a zombie fred, and he would be my pet zombie. :) or I can just name a bunch of zombies 'elven dead', put them in a crypt, and I have an excellent undead crypt. There are still many roleplay uses for the no despawn feature. (Although I doubt it will actually be used that much.) If you want to be creative actually, then there are ways the nametag can give you a military advantage. Name a bunch of skellys, get a vamp to shove them in a small house, then if raiders come by, UNLEASH HELL UPON THEM with mob skellys. Still something nonprems should have.[DOUBLEPOST=1371050669,1371050354][/DOUBLEPOST]
thor5648 said:
Perhaps everyone should be able to wear diamond armor, since iron breaks so fast, but only premiums can wear diamond enchanted armor?
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If that happens, there should be a texture change on the diamond armor. Under no persons definition is a bunch of people in diamond armor (sea of blue) a pretty medieval RP sight. (except maybe my sister's) Possibly also a name change. Diamond shouldn't be an armor. (Aluminum armor!)
 
The problem with these sort of threads is that nobody wins. Non-Premiums want less perks for Premium. Premium don't want that. So no matter how much people argue about it: It's still 50-50. I do agree that Non-Premiums can have Name tags but the rest can stay. After all:
The server has to make money some how and taking away those sort of perks might make it seem less attractive.
 
Granted, the server does have to make money. This is true. However, the perks they have are not the only perks in existance. There are plenty of other things they can have. We don't have too much problem with prem portals, and many factions rely on premium to make those. They rely on the portals themselves too. That is one example of something that, no matter what, people would buy premium to get. And I can come up with many other things they can have without problems, but would make premium desirable.
 
Personally I feel that only features the server puts it's hard earned time into creating should be applicable for premium perks. However, I know that won't happen so I'm happy to settle for a middle ground like having diamond itself be server wide but enchanting it be limited to premiums.

I will now take the time to note that I am a premium.
 
These are good ideas but ... IZ YOU WANT CAYORION TO DIEZ!?
The money initially goes to Cayorion, and the servers security. With these new features, no one would donate as people who donate would believe there is no point as it is too similar to someone who plays for free.
 
Thank you for starting this thread Mecharic, a serious discussion is definitely in order and having you as the OP should help keep it so.
That said I feel we are overlooking some key elements of the topic so I would like to present a holistic view of premium and then comment on how specific benefits relate to it.

Premiums

Point 1:
They are critical to the existence of the server as we know it

Sharding, bandwidth, and other infrastructural maintenance are an ongoing cost of any public server. To provide a low latency experience costs even more money. Unless Cray is independently wealthy this money has to come from the players, and it should considering they are the reason the costs are necessary. The money raised from premium subs is not funding some gold-plated lair inside a cave somewhere (although that would be awesome) – it's to pay the bills and maybe a little more.

Point 2: Premium sub service needs to provide an attractive enough incentive as to maintain a healthy subscriber base.

Stripping perks from people who fork over cash every month to support the server is bad business unless the perks create imbalance that create chaos for the greater populace. People who contribute financially to the server to help it thrive are kind of like members of a co-op, and as such deserve exclusive benefits beyond those of what others are getting for free.

Point 3:MC implements donor rewards in an extremely minimalistic way

Compared to most servers donors get remarkably little, at least in the way of op elements. Could MC start selling silver, flying, admin rights, or hacked armor sets? You bet they could, but there is none of that on MC which is what makes it so special.

Point 4:Premium subscribers are the ideal consumers of the server

This is in no way diminishing the contributions of many non-premium players; in fact they have clearly been a large part of the community's output. Even so, premiums as a whole are still the ideal player-server relationship for the same reasons as the aforementioned co-op comparison; players making a personal investment of money in a subscription have more to lose by engaging in bad behavior and more to gain by a financially stable server and vibrant community. It's a well-established tendency of humans to take things for granted that they have no tangible stake in.


Specific Benefits

Get double money drops from mobs
This currently isn't even a benefit as it isn't working; if it is fixed it won't be a significant issue as the drop amounts are so low.

Craft and wear diamond armor (only premium members can)
Well enchanted iron armor is absolutely adequate in PVP, it's not as powerful as diamond but this does not guarantee an instant win. Arguing that diamond armor should be removed doesn't balance anything; and even if it did why would we want to? If we are asserting that we need to govern server policy by what makes a perfectly fair fight then we must remove every potential advantage that a player might seek out through their own efforts which completely removes the incentive of developing your character to begin with which is not immersive and certainly not conducive to RP.

Wealthy lords in Medieval times had access to superior armor, why wouldn't wealthier MC players? Seeking out and exploiting gear and MCMMO skill levels foster participation and competition in PVP, although I can see how it could be discouraging to new people without the developed skills or gear. The simple remedy for those people is to get out there and develop their player.

Remember that there is no tool or weapon limitation on non-premiums; A Sharp V or Power V weapon does plenty of damage to take down premiums in diamond armor. There is also no limitation on potions, so at the end of the day we are talking a moderate armor rating advantage here – well within reason.

Build and fire cannons
For siege warfare this could be beneficial, but if we are going to allow people to use these, it is for the best that people who have incentive to use them responsibly (people who spend cash for the privilege) should be allowed to.

MCMMO cooldowns reduced to 50%
Now this ability can admittedly turn the tide of a prolonged battle depending on the ratio of premiums to non-premiums participating. Despite this, all players can have these abilities and allowing premiums a faster recharge rate does not create a major imbalance.

Craft horse armor (when 1.6 is released)
Craft and use name tags (when 1.6 is released)
These two have not been released yet but neither of these harm game balance. Non-premiums can buy saddles from others and name tags are an optional enhancement. Paying for the privilege of using these are perfect candidates for premium perks.

IN CLOSING


A lot of discussion of reducing premium benefits to benefit the non-premiums is unfair to premiums. The cost for premium is quite low and as mentioned before there is even a way to get it without actual cash. Why would we want to marginalize those who back the server with their own cash to the sole benefit of those who don't? Furthermore, why do those that choose not to back the server deserve preferential treatment?
 
You bring up a very good point. Several, actually. There is however the point, that just because there are issues with these specific issues, does not mean that there is no solution. There are several ways that premium could continue to be desirable and the server funded, without creating the perceived imbalances.

Getting double money drops: So far no one has much of a problem with that, more of a problem with them being so small to begin with. It is however a completely fine premium perk, if it works.

Diamond armor: This is the largest controversy in the game. It doesn't look that great (in color, not design) but it is the best armor in the game. Yes, it is realized that diamond armor does not guarantee victory. A good pvper in iron can kill a bad pvper in diamond. The problem as I see it, is when they are evenly matched. There are not that many people who are really bad pvpers. In an evenly matched fight, skill based, the diamond armor will likely win. I have run experiments on this. Also, people can and are scared of enchanting their iron armor, because 1: it's weak and can run down its durability easily and 2: Diamond armor prems might kill them, and there goes their armor. Because of the imbalance in pvp, almost no-one wants to fight a prem with diamond. Maybe he's a complete noob, and maybe he can't swing a sword worth a chicken, but the odds of that are slim. A better thing would be to take or give diamond from or to everyone, and give gold armor to prems. Gold is less then that effective, but it looks good and gives the advantage to roleplay instead. That is unlikely to be popular, but it is more popular then diamond. Or, better yet, have two versions of diamond, both technically the same, but with one having the massive blue texture pack, called diamond armor, and having very high durability. The other could be available to everyone, different roleplay-friendly texture, same stats as normal diamond, but called something different and having less durability then the prem diamond. This way, prems get access to the famous awesome diamond armor, and do not have a direct combat advantage, yet still have better armor.
Also, not all ridiculously rich massive players are premium, and not all premium players are ridiculously rich. And player development only does so much, and not as much as the armor in an even battle. Character development does not work. Something that must be remembered is: The premiums can do the same thing. They have potions, they have sharpness swords, and they can survive long enough to use them.

Build and fire cannon: You do have a point. A simple compromise would be to allow nonprems to load and fire, while just premiums can build. Currently it is that prems get load, fire, and build, while non can only fire, which has drawbacks that I have previously stated.

Craft horse armor: The problem there is just convenience. Granted, most factions have one premium. This means that the premium can craft my armor, and there is a thread declaring that some prems will do just that. Problem: Why? Premiums will have a market advantage in selling horse armor, why go to the premium to craft my armor when I can still use it, and what is the point giving prems another advantage? Making them able to craft diamond horse armor would make more sense.

Craft and use nametags: Similar problem to above, but multiplied. In order to use the nametags, and people will want to use the nametags, a premium would have to craft a whole bunch of them, come down to your area with you whateveryouwanttoname's, and name them all. Premiums would not like to do this. The obvious solution: Don't do that. Premiums can just not give you their services. Never going to be a happy prospect. Besides all the roleplay reasons why nonprems should be able to use nametags that I posted earlier, Every premium will have people saying "please won't you name my horse?" or "I have this zombie here..." etc, whether they say no or not. PLus all those roleplay applications that I already posted. There are so many to use. Denying access to 2/3 of all players to that? Not a very good decision. Even the setup with the horses is better.
 
I do agree that a solution is viable, but there are more options than to give/take something away from players. I would love to see an arena where each player has chest with a variety of gear that they can choose to their liking that is of the same material and comparable enchants. This way you have a guaranteed balance and everybody wins.

Another possibility that I also dig is giving non-premiums access for some cost, much like renting a stall in the market.

If Diamond armor were to be denied to everyone it is true we would all be wearing iron but then we would be having discussions about the unfair advantages of uber enchants vs people who don't have decent ones.
 
lmantle said:
I do agree that a solution is viable, but there are more options than to give/take something away from players. I would love to see an arena where each player has chest with a variety of gear that they can choose to their liking that is of the same material and comparable enchants. This way you have a guaranteed balance and everybody wins.

Another possibility that I also dig is giving non-premiums access for some cost, much like renting a stall in the market.

If Diamond armor were to be denied to everyone it is true we would all be wearing iron but then we would be having discussions about the unfair advantages of uber enchants vs people who don't have decent ones.
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I agree, that arena would be nice. However the problem is not the arenas, those are completely attend-by-choice, and accept the risks. Completely understandable. The problem is in-game, in raiding, faction wars, etc. There, having the opportunity for balance is of the up-most importance. It allows every faction to have equal chance of being powerful. An arena is good, but it doesn't solve the problem. Also, the options are almost universally taking or giving something from/to the players. The trick is finding the best combination, and creating to suit that combination. Like giving everyone diamond armor, and then creating something else to compensate, for example. Almost like supply and demand, on a different level.

Please clarify the underlined sentence.

People complaining about Uber enchants is a different story. Anyone has the opportunity to get enchants. If I was a moron who couldn't find diamonds to save my life, or barely tries, and/or isn't willing to buy them, then I would have no good argument here. This is not about not having diamond armor, this is about not having the opportunity to have diamond armor. Large difference.
 
How about you buff Iron armor so it's equal to diamond except in durability, and buff Chain armor to be equal to what iron is now, and Leather to be what chain is now, and remove MCMMO completely so axes don't break iron armor in 1 hit.
 
The underlined sentence suggests that non-premiums might have the ability to 'rent' diamond armor wear-ability with a monthly silver cost. Perhaps for 50s per month.
 
SYkO_Reaper117 said:
How about you buff Iron armor so it's equal to diamond except in durability, and buff Chain armor to be equal to what iron is now, and Leather to be what chain is now, and remove MCMMO completely so axes don't break iron armor in 1 hit.
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I would prefer the opposite, have it equal only in durability. I don't mind the defense difference as it is easily managed with a defensive playstyle; however, when fighting crazy axemen, iron armor won't even last a whole fight.
 
Philly said:
I would prefer the opposite, have it equal only in durability. I don't mind the defense difference as it is easily managed with a defensive playstyle; however, when fighting crazy axemen, iron armor won't even last a whole fight.
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That's why I suggested removing MCMMO completely. In my opinion, it ruins the economy, PvP, and many other aspects of the server. It is nice to have for a while, but when people start maxing every skill, it gives a huge advantage to veterans.
 
Removing MCMMO would have some major drawbacks as well. High repair, fishing, and excavating players are a serious source of economic input. This may give them an advantage but their efforts help to keep supply higher which keeps prices affordable for leather, metals, some gems, and other more exotic items.

The more volatile drawback is that the people who have high MCMMO stats have leveled them with serious time investment. It would be a tough sell to tell them their efforts have been erased in the name of giving newer/undeveloped players a better fighting chance. I do agree about axe-monsters lol, they could use a slight nerfing.

But a high level archer with a good bow is going to bring some pain as well, if they are an elf even worse. The armor degrading of axes should be reduced if possible.

I think MCMMO adds welcome flavor to the game overall. Like any game, we expect return on our time investments and MCMMO delivers there. I would say it makes PvP more daunting for many up against certain players but without MCMMO we get back into a more vanilla style where it will all come down to gear. Id rather get rolled by someone who has invested an ungodly amount of time into leveling their stats than someone who simply spent a ton of silver.

MCMMO skill leveling can also provide an equalizing factor or even a nasty advantage, not every donor in PvP has high MCMMO - also everyone can level it so in a way its just like gear - everyone can buy it with something.
 
I have to say, I honestly enjoyed this post a lot. It made me think differently about Premium perks, and I really hope admins are looking at the ideas of all of you, there are certainly a lot of brilliant ideas here, on both sides of the argument.
 
Unded said:
I have to say, I honestly enjoyed this post a lot. It made me think differently about Premium perks, and I really hope admins are looking at the ideas of all of you, there are certainly a lot of brilliant ideas here, on both sides of the argument.
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On behalf of the thread, Thanks!

lmantle said:
Removing MCMMO would have some major drawbacks as well. High repair, fishing, and excavating players are a serious source of economic input. This may give them an advantage but their efforts help to keep supply higher which keeps prices affordable for leather, metals, some gems, and other more exotic items.

The more volatile drawback is that the people who have high MCMMO stats have leveled them with serious time investment. It would be a tough sell to tell them their efforts have been erased in the name of giving newer/undeveloped players a better fighting chance. I do agree about axe-monsters lol, they could use a slight nerfing.

But a high level archer with a good bow is going to bring some pain as well, if they are an elf even worse. The armor degrading of axes should be reduced if possible.

I think MCMMO adds welcome flavor to the game overall. Like any game, we expect return on our time investments and MCMMO delivers there. I would say it makes PvP more daunting for many up against certain players but without MCMMO we get back into a more vanilla style where it will all come down to gear. Id rather get rolled by someone who has invested an ungodly amount of time into leveling their stats than someone who simply spent a ton of silver.

MCMMO skill leveling can also provide an equalizing factor or even a nasty advantage, not every donor in PvP has high MCMMO - also everyone can level it so in a way its just like gear - everyone can buy it with something.
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I agree. I do think that some of the things obtained through MCMMO should be available through some other way, or easier through MCMMO. I've seen more wither skulls decorating markets then being sold in them. But that is non-critical.
 
Mecharic said:
Forward:

So many threads I've seen and participated in that complain about the premium skills and "Overpoweredness". Well, I haven't seen many threads that exist to help balance premium perks and better meld the premium abilities into the Massivecraft theme of roleplay. So I've created this thread to serve that purpose. If such a thread has already been created feel free to (as an admin) post a link to it and close this thread. To all those who seek to post comments in my thread: THIS IS NOT A BITCH ABOUT PREMIUM THREAD! If you are dumb enough to make it into such a thread I will have it closed down and will be disappointed in the lot of you. Now, on the to thread...

As stated in the title, this thread is about alterations that could be made to premium perks. The current premium perks are as follows:
These are the perks being discussed in this thread. The perks in red are the ones I feel should be left out of this thread as they have minimal relevance to the true topic of the thread. That leaves the following perks, which are the most influential in the conflict:


  • Craft and wear diamond armor (only premium members can)
  • Build and fire cannons
  • MCMMO cooldowns reduced to 50%
  • Craft horse armor (when 1.6 is released)
  • Craft and use name tags (when 1.6 is released)
Now, I personally proposed the following alterations in another thread:


  1. Diamond Armor - Give this to everyone. There is nothing roleplay accurate about only premiums being able to use diamond armor and everyone knows it. The feature is literally a pay-to-win feature and shouldn't even be considered under the current standing proclamations by the server administration. And if premiums get pissy at first they will soon accept it when they start killing non prems and getting sets of diamond armor they can then use for themselves.
  2. MCMMO Cooldowns - ahahaha no. Premiums should have to wait like everyone else - indeed, they should have to wait longer since the rich and powerful weren't exactly the most skilled at survival tasks like woodcutting or mining.
  3. RolePlay Based Perks - There should be perks that are based on roleplay rather then pvp.
    1. Names - Premiums could be able to change their IG nametag to suit their RP character. For example, I would be Mr.Paloin instead of Mecharic (only in Local Chat mind you). This would definitely make it easier for Roleplay to Occur if possible to code.
    2. Item-Carry - This is probably way too complex to be possible, but if it is Premiums should be given the ability to have an item in their hotbar and type /holditem to have it go in their hand like if it was on a wall (for example, torches. You type /holditem and it gives off light and looks like you're holding a real wall-torch). An item in /holditem could be either dual (meaning it goes to the hand not used for tools/blocks) or single (meaning it prevents use of another item). Would be AWESOME for roleplay.
    3. Specialty Items - Craft yourself a pipe or a cane, then use the /holditem feature to use it in a realistic manner!
      1. Pipe - 3 stick with a wood block above the end (either will do).
      2. Cane - 3 sticks in a horizontal manner.
      3. Latern - Redstone Light in the middle, lever on the top.
      4. Hats - Realistic hats made by putting 3 blocks of Wool, Wheat, or Leather on the bottom and then 1 block of the same substance in the middle and on top.
      5. Statue - 3 stone blocks on the bottom, 2 stone brick on top. Creates a random statue of a mob/Steve/important players. (this could even be a standalone for decor).
  4. Horses & Armor - I do not see the value in preventing normal players who may very well be richer then their premium counterparts from crafting and equipping horse armor - even if it is a massivecraft plugin
And I will now add to these alterations the following:

  1. Cannons - Anyone should be able to build a cannon.
I cannot think of any other ideas at this time (y u no work brain?!?!?!) but I'm sure you folks of massivecraft can! What I hope we ALL aim for is something that meets the standards of Massivecraft and aims towards supporting the goal of Massivecraft, which is to be a RolePlay server. That means that ideas posted here should attempt to meet the following:

  1. Have some effect on the Role Play aspect of Massivecraft.
  2. Not cause the server become a Pay to Win or Pay to Play server.
  3. Not cause the server to lose it's entire premium base.
  4. Not enhance premium to the point of obnoxious.
Good Thinking, Massivecrafters, and may Notch watch over you! Remember to be polite and courteous to all posts regardless of personal thoughts on them - all ideas are welcome, after all.


~Mecharic - Part Time Drunk, Full Time Banker​
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I agree, diamond armor is a pay to win feature. Premium should be more about adding small perks and conveniences(portable workbench, and backpack are good examples) not taking what is already in the game and disabling it for those who are not premium. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it premium thoroughly. The diamond armor however is something I was kind of on the fence about the whole time, but at this point I really do think everyone should have the ability to wear it, it's an in game mechanic that is disabled unless you donate which is a bit strange if you really think about it. Anyway just my two cents.
thor5648 said:
Perhaps everyone should be able to wear diamond armor, since iron breaks so fast, but only premiums can wear diamond enchanted armor?
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Nah that's essentially the same thing, but even worse. You might as well wear enchanted iron armor as it would be vastly superior to plain diamond. Once again this also takes away the core game mechanics which is not something I am a fan of, it's almost as if you have to pay to play the game it was intended originally. As stated previously I am a strong believer that premium should add perks and features rather than impose limits on the core game mechanics for those who do not have premium. It's counter-intuitive.
 
A few more potential compromises:
  • Can custom potions be introduced that only non-premiums can drink?
  • Can iron armor base defense be increased?
  • What about adding diamond for everyone and then adding a new premium perk?
 
lmantle said:
A few more potential compromises:
  • Can custom potions be introduced that only non-premiums can drink?
  • Can iron armor base defense be increased?
  • What about adding diamond for everyone and then adding a new premium perk?
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Adding new premium perks is what I suggest, if prem perks are needed. The only problem is combat and basic roleplay advantage, with maybe some complications. Anything else is fair game. (Like giving premium the ability to put blocks on their heads, in existing perks, or maybe the ability to spawn a stationary npc that looks like them.)
If diamond is added, there is no need for buffing iron.
And custom potions might also be something good as a prem perk, but for roleplay. Like a potion that gives you super speed, and nausea at the same time.
 
I felt like some of the problems of the prem features is not that they can wear diamond armor, because im pretty sure that fighting in faction land with damage decrease is same as diamond armor. It's more about how people are reluctant to enchant iron armor because:
1. iron armor has very low durability compared to diamond
2.if you take the time to grind out four 30 level enchants and put them on iron armor, you can lose the iron armor in an instant by getting killed by a premium with the same tier armor as you. But if you kill the prem? He doesn't lose his armor and you get pretty much nothing except (if your lucky enough to actually kill a premium who has this armor and a god sword) a god sword. So the reason why premiums are generally better in pvp than non premiums, is because non-premiums generally don't have heavily enchanted iron armor due to the risk of losing it all. While the prems usually have heavily enchanted diamond armor because they can never lose it, unless broken through durability, leaving that huge gap in balance. no god armor iron armor guys= death from god armor prem or god armor non-prem vs. god armor prem= either prem dies losing only a godsword, not that much of a loss compared to.... non-prem dies, loses god armor and the god sword. see the gap there?

Now, I'm not saying we should get rid of armor kept on death, because that would actually be really bad for the server. But I have one suggestion to throw out there which I want someone to consider (cause im not sure if this is going to make prems hate me) Why not make it so that no one loses their armor? Now, like I said, I only just thought of this, so maybe I haven't thought the idea all the way through, but the way I see it, prems still get no drop armor on death, but so do non-prems, so non-prems actually even think about making god armor. This would even up the battle field as non-prems would get god armor vs. god armor and personally, I haven't yet to see a high level axe guy smash through iron armor (since I usually die before my armor breaks) so im not sure how fast iron breaks. feedback is welcomed, but don't be too harsh.
 
davidr64ytfan said:
I felt like some of the problems of the prem features is not that they can wear diamond armor, because im pretty sure that fighting in faction land with damage decrease is same as diamond armor. It's more about how people are reluctant to enchant iron armor because:
1. iron armor has very low durability compared to diamond
2.if you take the time to grind out four 30 level enchants and put them on iron armor, you can lose the iron armor in an instant by getting killed by a premium with the same tier armor as you. But if you kill the prem? He doesn't lose his armor and you get pretty much nothing except (if your lucky enough to actually kill a premium who has this armor and a god sword) a god sword. So the reason why premiums are generally better in pvp than non premiums, is because non-premiums generally don't have heavily enchanted iron armor due to the risk of losing it all. While the prems usually have heavily enchanted diamond armor because they can never lose it, unless broken through durability, leaving that huge gap in balance. no god armor iron armor guys= death from god armor prem or god armor non-prem vs. god armor prem= either prem dies losing only a godsword, not that much of a loss compared to.... non-prem dies, loses god armor and the god sword. see the gap there?

Now, I'm not saying we should get rid of armor kept on death, because that would actually be really bad for the server. But I have one suggestion to throw out there which I want someone to consider (cause im not sure if this is going to make prems hate me) Why not make it so that no one loses their armor? Now, like I said, I only just thought of this, so maybe I haven't thought the idea all the way through, but the way I see it, prems still get no drop armor on death, but so do non-prems, so non-prems actually even think about making god armor. This would even up the battle field as non-prems would get god armor vs. god armor and personally, I haven't yet to see a high level axe guy smash through iron armor (since I usually die before my armor breaks) so im not sure how fast iron breaks. feedback is welcomed, but don't be too harsh.
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I'm not sure if they are equivalent, because you can enchant diamond, and some other reasons, but I do think that this analysis and solution are correct. There is however the problem, what is you are fighting prems in the wilderness or in their faction land? Everyone keeping armor will solve the problem most of the way, but not all the way. I think that this in conjunction with some of the other solutions mentioned would be ideal.
 
Wat I like to surgest as a sulotion is to improve the situation for !!!'both'!!!. Non-premiums still can't craft Diamond armour, But they should be able to wear it and enchant it. Ontop of that premiums should get perks in return for the loss of these two reservations. But none that would give them an advantage in pvp that non-premiums cannot have.

Yes you may say we should kill them by trapping them, or use potions, or even train our skills higher than theirs. But none of that matters. A premium can do the same. The thing is, they don't need to. Because they know they have better armour. They dare to enchant it because of a better chance at winning in pvp, they train hours to lvl mcmmo because they have an advantage over non-premiums. (not saying non-premiums dont train its just when there both at max level premium is better due to his armour) Diamond armour simply does make a change. Why? because on every aspect of pvp, non-premium and premium can be the same and do the same, exept for the ability to wear diamond armour and have an equely long durrance and equaly high protection.

Who cares if someone is better in mcmmo than you? Aslong as you can beat them when you get at their level.
Why do we want to keep armour on death? If we can beat them when the odds are the same?
Why do we want to pay 100s? if only we want a chance at a fair fight in the end? (not sure if its 100s for premium ;3 )

Yes premiums are important to this server. But does that mean that the largest part of the server's community should have to face that no matter how hard they train and level, premiums can always be better? (in pvp i mean ofcource)

If only we could wear it and enchant it. We still need premiums to make it. Similar to gates. We need premiums to build them. (activate them realy :/) Is it that much of a sacrifice then, to have the right to wear diamond armour? Especialy if there might be so many potential perks still waiting to be found and implanted? Please ask yourselves 'that'.
(if only i could draw a vote on this here :3 )

And just something where most, if not all are wrong at! IT IS NOT PAY TO WIN!!! It is donate to win :P ( or have a bigger chance or.. watever, you know wat i mean:) )
 
Regarding pay vs donate to win, what is the difference? Everyone says, no it is not pay to win, it is a reward for donating. That is like saying "Donate some money to me, and I'll give you a free cookie!" "give me money, and I'll give you something for free!" No difference. Donating is something for nothing. Buying is expecting something in return. And because diamond armor helps winning, it is buying win, or pay to win. If there is another difference, please tell me, but this is also what this thread is to suggest solutions to. Solving the problem of premium pay-to-win.
Other then that, and that I am uncertain of prem crafting diamond armor, but everyone wearing it, I agree.
 
I actually do like the idea of prem crafting and everyone wearing. It helps balance the pvp aspect with completely removing the prem diamond perk. They should be the only ones able to enchant too I feel.

As for Pay v/s Donate, donations don't get taxed I think? Or some other legal loophole that goes with gifting and donations and such.
 
The premiums being able to craft diamond armour when premiums cant is quite interesting actually. Then, you cant just go and craft all of this random diamond armour from just right clicking a sign about 24 times. It makes it have a slight bit of effort, and even a tad more communication between the players, as you can roleplay (for those rpers) ask them to create some armour for you, and for that average Joe, "make me diamond armour. Plz."
 
Personally, I'm fond of the idea of only premiums being able to craft and enchant diamond armor, but anyone can wear it, even enchanted. This makes it expensive to buy enchanted diamond armor from premiums, while they can simply gather the levels and enchant it themselves.
 
wizered67 no only they can craft the armour. However, you can enchant it as a non premium and stuff. You wont always need to buy it from them, especially if a friendly premium is willing to craft you one for basically free (if you provide materials)
 
I think this thread has a lot of fluff, but:

Mecharic said:
Diamond Armor - Give this to everyone. There is nothing roleplay accurate about only premiums being able to use diamond armor and everyone knows it. The feature is literally a pay-to-win feature and shouldn't even be considered under the current standing proclamations by the server administration. And if premiums get pissy at first they will soon accept it when they start killing non prems and getting sets of diamond armor they can then use for themselves.
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This should be added.

That would change it from pay to win to more of a pay to not lose tons of stuff, as they would still drop their armor when they die.
 
davidr64ytfan said:
I felt like some of the problems of the prem features is not that they can wear diamond armor, because im pretty sure that fighting in faction land with damage decrease is same as diamond armor. It's more about how people are reluctant to enchant iron armor because:
1. iron armor has very low durability compared to diamond
2.if you take the time to grind out four 30 level enchants and put them on iron armor, you can lose the iron armor in an instant by getting killed by a premium with the same tier armor as you. But if you kill the prem? He doesn't lose his armor and you get pretty much nothing except (if your lucky enough to actually kill a premium who has this armor and a god sword) a god sword. So the reason why premiums are generally better in pvp than non premiums, is because non-premiums generally don't have heavily enchanted iron armor due to the risk of losing it all. While the prems usually have heavily enchanted diamond armor because they can never lose it, unless broken through durability, leaving that huge gap in balance. no god armor iron armor guys= death from god armor prem or god armor non-prem vs. god armor prem= either prem dies losing only a godsword, not that much of a loss compared to.... non-prem dies, loses god armor and the god sword. see the gap there?

Now, I'm not saying we should get rid of armor kept on death, because that would actually be really bad for the server. But I have one suggestion to throw out there which I want someone to consider (cause im not sure if this is going to make prems hate me) Why not make it so that no one loses their armor? Now, like I said, I only just thought of this, so maybe I haven't thought the idea all the way through, but the way I see it, prems still get no drop armor on death, but so do non-prems, so non-prems actually even think about making god armor. This would even up the battle field as non-prems would get god armor vs. god armor and personally, I haven't yet to see a high level axe guy smash through iron armor (since I usually die before my armor breaks) so im not sure how fast iron breaks. feedback is welcomed, but don't be too harsh.
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Most of this is pretty true. I've seen quite a few Premiums in battle in which if they didn't have their 1000 everythings or diamond armour, I'd smoke them pretty bad in pvp.
And it's saying something when I know I'd smoke them.
Some Premiums {Shhh, calm down Premiums, I'm not labeling anyone here. I'm just saying "some" to not be as MUCH rude as I seemingly am lawl} seem to take it they are the best fighters on the server, only because they can one shot someone with their axes. "But they've trained hours on end against many mobs" Yeah, quite a few people can do that. Even the friendly neighborhood n00b can do that, if they've had Minecraft for longer than 2 weeks. In fact, a lot of my friends are actually quite powerful pvpers, and would do brilliant otherwise. But the high diamond and axe makes it much harder. "Buy Premium" yeah, yeah, some of us wish we could do that, either we can't spend money on the server or some just find it more a FTW server than needing to pay to have to succeed.
And yes, Iron armour can depending on how high the axe skill, and almost literally be one-shot. I know boots can snap in 3 if lucky, and torso in about 6 on occasions.
 
Mecharic said:
I actually do like the idea of prem crafting and everyone wearing. It helps balance the pvp aspect with completely removing the prem diamond perk. They should be the only ones able to enchant too I feel.

As for Pay v/s Donate, donations don't get taxed I think? Or some other legal loophole that goes with gifting and donations and such.
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Wel at first i thought the same, but then i realised that if non-premiums want a good enchanted diamond armour set, they will have to ask a premium to go gather exp in darkrooms. I think its more practical that non-premiums can also enchant it.

I just feel like premiums getting borred of having to enchant their friends armour all the time while they might want to have some time to enchant their own aswel. Crafting seems legit because non-premiums can indeed provide the materials and can ask a premium to craft a set, free of charge or for a small payment. (Perhaps this will lead to a surtant market where you have premiums offering the crafting service for a small contribution)

I just hope that it could be realised. I mean its not like we havent given enough reasons and surgestions.
Maybe its time we voted on one of these surgestions and see if people would agree. Even if its only a single option that is to be changed. We do keep falling back to these topics about premiums. And that in my eyes is because the problems the community has with them never realy gets solved. Maybe we can see it a different way, maybe we can try to live with it, but that doesnt solve the issue which we keep bringing forward.

I think its time we start voting and see who agrees with a surgestion, *for instance the diamond armour surgestion many of us have made* maybe trough this we can show wat we want, and how many people want this. With a little help of the staff we might hear almost everyones vote. My surgestion to this vote however is give 4 options stating if your a premium, and if you agree to the chance. This way we can see exactly how many non-premiums want this and how many premiums want this or not.

Discussing and arguing about an issue is one thing. Acting to help solve it is another. :) (just wat i think we should do)
 
Emperor_max said:
Wel at first i thought the same, but then i realised that if non-premiums want a good enchanted diamond armour set, they will have to ask a premium to go gather exp in darkrooms. I think its more practical that non-premiums can also enchant it.

I just feel like premiums getting borred of having to enchant their friends armour all the time while they might want to have some time to enchant their own aswel. Crafting seems legit because non-premiums can indeed provide the materials and can ask a premium to craft a set, free of charge or for a small payment. (Perhaps this will lead to a surtant market where you have premiums offering the crafting service for a small contribution)

I just hope that it could be realised. I mean its not like we havent given enough reasons and surgestions.
Maybe its time we voted on one of these surgestions and see if people would agree. Even if its only a single option that is to be changed. We do keep falling back to these topics about premiums. And that in my eyes is because the problems the community has with them never realy gets solved. Maybe we can see it a different way, maybe we can try to live with it, but that doesnt solve the issue which we keep bringing forward.

I think its time we start voting and see who agrees with a surgestion, *for instance the diamond armour surgestion many of us have made* maybe trough this we can show wat we want, and how many people want this. With a little help of the staff we might hear almost everyones vote. My surgestion to this vote however is give 4 options stating if your a premium, and if you agree to the chance. This way we can see exactly how many non-premiums want this and how many premiums want this or not.

Discussing and arguing about an issue is one thing. Acting to help solve it is another. :) (just wat i think we should do)
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Agreed in almost every way. Diamond armor should be both craftable and usable by anybody, (although for prem enchanting a nonprem can give a prem enchanted books) and we should start coming to an agreement. However, do not forget that there are a few other things besides diamond armor that this thread was made to talk about. Premium crafting horse armor, premium crafting and using nametags, etc. I have already posted my opinions on these things, but I'll post them again so they can be closer to the end of the thread.

Diamond Armor-Should be either added for everybody, or removed entirely. If added for everyone, it should have a name/color change so that it looks less blue.

Build and fire cannon- Should be added for everyone. Possible compromise, build only for prem, fire and load for everyone.

MCMMO cooldowns reduced to 50%- The whole cooldown should be reduced anyway, but yes at least prem should not have this.

Craft horse armor- Should be given to everyone.

Craft/use nametags- Should be given to everyone.

As of recently, everyone keeps armor on death, too.

Those are my final result opinions. I have posted the reasons before, anyone can go look at them. Now, there still have to be prem perks, but these should not be them. Some possible options might be, create 2 types of armor, one of them diamond, and one of them the same as diamond, but with a name/texture change. Prems get diamond, and everyone else gets the other armor. Neither have an advantage, but prem gets the classic and famous diamond. That is one possible perk. Of course there are others, and I can come up with more, but the point is clear.
 
Emperor_max - The admins have already made it quite clear they aren't going to do anything that makes premium less awesome. But I enjoy discussing things on the off chance I ever start my own server haha.
 
Mecharic said:
Emperor_max - The admins have already made it quite clear they aren't going to do anything that makes premium less awesome. But I enjoy discussing things on the off chance I ever start my own server haha.
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Wow that's annoying. Admins! Come and see the ideas we have come up with! Then in your free programming time you can make the server better for everyone! These things have been discussed and are entirely valid points! Do the bidding of the server!
 
Mecharic said:
Emperor_max - The admins have already made it quite clear they aren't going to do anything that makes premium less awesome. But I enjoy discussing things on the off chance I ever start my own server haha.
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Wel as I you and many other people have stated we did find ways to make premium even more atractive at some points. but your probably right we made our point its basicly up to the admins if they choose to do something with it :)

Cruallassar said:
Wow that's annoying. Admins! Come and see the ideas we have come up with! Then in your free programming time you can make the server better for everyone! These things have been discussed and are entirely valid points! Do the bidding of the server!
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I love your spirit but i think were pretty much all tired from having to bring forth ideas by now (about this topic).

Could maybe somewone perhaps make a nice list of the surgestions we made? and ofcouce with the possitives and the negative effects (which we believe to come with the changes) along with it.

I think i can live with it for now. But I just don't feel that i can live with it for the long run. Right now i have other things to tend to than war and raids. Perhaps other people might too. But we were clear about wat we wanted. And along some surgestions they were in my eyes reasonable enough to be aplied. Maybe next time we will argue about it again :). Maybe when new perks come out, the staff might finaly feel to make a change ;3. I gues only time will tell.

Farewell nice discussion, il miss you for now. Il lay down my blade and bow before you. And let it rest for anotherday to be continued again. :) And a small msg to all the people who helped forming our surgestions and arguments over time
Nai tiruvantel ar varyuvantel i Valar tielyanna nu vilya. (May the Valar protect you on your path under the sky)
 
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