Archived A New Way To Raiding.

[Lord_ArchAngel]

I started to think of this idea when Jom and fav posted their ideas on raiding. A typical raid on the server goes:
Offense- Are the raiders, Defenses- are the faction being raided

Offense: kills a few members of defenses' faction.
Defense: Hides in their base and almost never comes out.
Offense: gets really bored
Defense: still doesn't come out

That is basically the typical raid. My idea however is a way to get a "breach" within their faction. The idea is using TNT OR cannons to shoot down walls. For example, if a TNT blast goes off outside a building, it will only destroy glass. Using a cannon however, depending on the material will destroy certain materials. For example, an enemy shoots a cannon loaded with cobble stone. The cobble stone ammo can destroy glass and wood planks. The ammo type and what it destroys can be changed. Medieval wise, their would be sieges and cannon balls flying around an enemy base. Which destroys enemy walls and buildings. This idea will hopefully bring more of a "Role Play" feel during raids.

 

[favoured]

This could be used to grief pretty easily, I suggest that you make it so the destroyed blocks respawn after a short time.

 

[Lord_ArchAngel]

This could be used to grief pretty easily, I suggest that you make it so the destroyed blocks respawn after a short time.

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Hmmm true. I originaly thought of it so that explosions only destroy ONE type of block, which is glass from windows

 

[AaronChuey]

Decent idea, but like favoured said, griefing would occur. Even if the cannon balls only destroy one type of block, different ammo types would be used. Besides, this would make regular players mad, since only premiums can use cannons. Many people would see this as another add on to the "pay to win" aspect of the server.

 

[Lord_ArchAngel]

Decent idea, but like favoured said, griefing would occur. Even if the cannon balls only destroy one type of block, different ammo types would be used. Besides, this would make regular players mad, since only premiums can use cannons. Many people would see this as another add on to the "pay to win" aspect of the server.

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(facepalm) I forgot cannons were premium only. Instead, perhaps make it so it only works with TNT. In that case tnt will only destroy glass.

 

[FCCarnilord]

But those boxes people hide in are so intelligently planned. Also, since Tnt is disabled, it doesn't even have a knockback from itself, making so you cant create cannnons, and you cant build on the enemy's land, making the Tnt addition very useless, unless the unclaimed land is DIRECTLY next to that glass. Decent idea, but I'm not entirely on board with it.

 

[Thorjl]

I like the idea of blocks respawning after a short time but I can already hear the rage from the many glitches that'd probly cause.

In ancient times they did have sappers though... It's a tough one.

 

[alex040401]

Good idea... but only prems get to use cannons. I think that only Prems can build a working one, but all can use

 

[TechPac]

Problem with this is, Admin and most players only want raids if the raids are enjoyable for both sides, in most cases, this is not the case, Raids should be ENTIRELY RP related, and personally I think that both sides should have to both RP agree to be enemies for raids to happen, otherwise its truely not enjoyable for both sides, yes I know this idea will piss off alot of people who like raiding because it wont be often that factions agree to this, but really, thats the ONLY way both sides can get enjoyment out of it without becomming incredibly IRL stressed, not everyone likes raiding and shouldnt be forced into it. If you dont like that, go find a PVP server.
Now yes I know that truely can never happen, it wasnt an actual suggestion. But really people need to think about what they are doing with raids, most do it to either boost their ego's with crap RP related requests like slavery or theivery. People need to make good valid reasons for their raids (like algaron who hunt vampires) But they need their raids/wars to actually MEAN something, rather then getting loots or just wishing to intimidate a smaller faction. This isnt something a pluggin or rule will ever change. Just players need to think just-fully with their raids and their /f enemy. More or less the only way to make something like this to happen is for it to be encouraged more.

 

[Llefty_]

TechPac's post above made me realize something - the raids on this server are incredibly unrealistic, even with the lore.

First, raiders come running through the open gates of a wall because nobody wants to constantly patrol a wall. Also, there is no way to raise the alarm quick enough to lock up all entrances to the kingdom.

Because the raiders are able to go through the walls 99% of the time, there is never any real siege warfare. Sure, there are cannons, but the most they can do is set things on fire. Now, I'm not suggesting cannons should destroy blocks, but maybe there's another way to make siege warfare interesting. Perhaps cannons / catapults could launch large amounts of gravel up and over the wall (or directly at players) to suffocate them? I thought that might be interesting, as I saw several very nice designs for catapults earlier.

 

[Artilles]

TechPac's post above made me realize something - the raids on this server are incredibly unrealistic, even with the lore.

First, raiders come running through the open gates of a wall because nobody wants to constantly patrol a wall. Also, there is no way to raise the alarm quick enough to lock up all entrances to the kingdom.

Because the raiders are able to go through the walls 99% of the time, there is never any real siege warfare. Sure, there are cannons, but the most they can do is set things on fire. Now, I'm not suggesting cannons should destroy blocks, but maybe there's another way to make siege warfare interesting. Perhaps cannons / catapults could launch large amounts of gravel up and over the wall (or directly at players) to suffocate them? I thought that might be interesting, as I saw several very nice designs for catapults earlier.

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Hence there should be a suggestion to remove ender pearls imo.

 

[TechPac]

TechPac's post above made me realize something - the raids on this server are incredibly unrealistic, even with the lore.

First, raiders come running through the open gates of a wall because nobody wants to constantly patrol a wall. Also, there is no way to raise the alarm quick enough to lock up all entrances to the kingdom.

Because the raiders are able to go through the walls 99% of the time, there is never any real siege warfare. Sure, there are cannons, but the most they can do is set things on fire. Now, I'm not suggesting cannons should destroy blocks, but maybe there's another way to make siege warfare interesting. Perhaps cannons / catapults could launch large amounts of gravel up and over the wall (or directly at players) to suffocate them? I thought that might be interesting, as I saw several very nice designs for catapults earlier.

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not sure how my post made you come to that conclusion but im glad its inspiring ideas XD

 

[iMineNewbs]

Just shower diamond block loaded cannons upon them???

 

[Xyphen]

I think there should be a "Declare Raid" command and within a certain time period the declaring faction can break doors, gates, and fences of the faction defending. This would allow a breach of sorts w/o having a way to grief.

 

[stuckinbermuda]

I think there should be a "Declare Raid" command and within a certain time period the declaring faction can break doors, gates, and fences of the faction defending. This would allow a breach of sorts w/o having a way to grief.

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yes but there is still a balance issue, how many defenders need to be on for a raid to be allowed? If just one member is on and happens to be afk since the faction is usually on in a different time zone it makes it unworkable and exploitable.

I honestly think the solution remains in settling things between consenting factions who both agree to the terms of a war. In a rp war the defender could agree that if the siege offensive reached certain goals, like outnumbering by an agreed ratio, maintaining a certain proximity to a section of wall for an agree amount of time or whatever, then, after the actually fighting phase they could break that particular section of wall to represent a breach, and make it look rp, and then continue the fight into the next phase. This kind of play would work well between warring factions that respect each other and know how to play nice. If someone is warring with you for poor reasons and refuses to play nice then you should have the option to not play with them, basically ignoring their rp as it would not be enjoyable. This would put some responsibility on the attacking force to have very good justification for their attack and require them to agree to rules of battle before engaging, and being respectful of those rules and the defending faction. I'd rather be attacked by a friendly enemy who knows how to play nice than an someone with a one man faction who thinks he can sack a city by himself and demand 400s. We have tried this out already and battles involving scenarios are a lot of fun and at the end of it everyone has a good time.

example:

Phase one: attackers make first raid with no warning so they have the advantage (defenders know they will be attacked at some point withing a two hour period) and attack is made while defenders are doing some rp work in wilderness (planting trees, repairing a road or whatever).

If defenders win by number of kills, or defending certain landmarks or whatever the agreed goals are then the attackers give up and walk away, players return items (makes it fair for non-premiums to join in) and attackers give up silver or items as compensation for a failed raid, agreed to prior and items from both sides held by someone to give out after. If the attackers win then they proceed to next phase in the scenario.

Phase two: attackers make their main attack on the defenders base and have set goals to achieve but if they do not in a two hour window, or whatever time both side decide they have to devote to the action, then they have to accept defeat and an alternative retreat phase with handicaps, like no potions, apples or diamond armor. If they do win then they get to fight the next phase as a breach so they get to enter the defenders base after they have altered it to be breached and agree that the fighting will only take place in rp elements of the base that are able to be reached by the attackers (no need for it to be take into someones underground non-rp farm for example).

In the end the direction the battle take and the rewards are known and agreed to before hand so there are no issues or butt hurt.

Each phase could be held on an agreed schedule, like a set time each evening or once a week when both parties have time and inclination to play in this way. I know it is no fun to have half the raider on the server attacking for six+ hours every night like during our "eternian" wars with taxconsumption. There are different plays styles and agreements like this make it a fun and enjoyable experience for all. Obviously if you want to raid for lolz all the time or basically be nasty to others then they will not agree to play with you and you will soon find yourself alone with few options for raiding. We need to improve the experience and enrich it.

 

[Orenbus]

I agree there should be a way of penetrating walls during raids.

I'm not sure about having mutual wars where people agree to fight as part of factions, it seems counter intuitive, and I don't think many if any wars would happen as a result.

 

[Rooseus]

Just make the cannons destroy blocks, after a while they will respawn. This is 100% possible and has been done before.

 

[TechPac]

Just make the cannons destroy blocks, after a while they will respawn. This is 100% possible and has been done before.

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Thing is this goes back to the point that admins want to make raids enjoyable for both sides, say a faction like alamut or even you guys with your high stats wished to raid a smaller faction who do not care for combat, you guys would realy just be able to blow thier walls dowm and slaughter them all, and really who is the ones who are really getting the enjoyment in that?
Now yes I know most arguments are "then they should get stronger" who really wants to sit in dark room grinding for days on end just so they can keep up with "mcmmo gods" that no longer makes the experiance enjoyable.

 

[Jomdorr]

Hence there should be a suggestion to remove ender pearls imo.

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There are a few already an example
http://forums.massivecraft.com/threads/siege-warfare.7259/
Disclaimer.... Not advertising just relevant subject

 

[Rooseus]

Thing is this goes back to the point that admins want to make raids enjoyable for both sides, say a faction like alamut or even you guys with your high stats wished to raid a smaller faction who do not care for combat, you guys would realy just be able to blow thier walls dowm and slaughter them all, and really who is the ones who are really getting the enjoyment in that?
Now yes I know most arguments are "then they should get stronger" who really wants to sit in dark room grinding for days on end just so they can keep up with "mcmmo gods" that no longer makes the experiance enjoyable.

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Well, i do believe we all want the massive experience to be as realistic as possible. In a good rp community some people are harmed becouse... It's realistic. I'm not saying that you should get stronger, what a weak faction should do in this situation is to surrender. It's as easy as that. Not many factions do surrender in the current massive, and we need more of that so you actually can beat another faction. In medival times there was a lot of wars, we fought to conquer. This is the truth of war, so instead of being in a small faction(which there is to many of), join a great empire to secure your survival.

 

[LordSylveon]

Well, i do believe we all want the massive experience to be as realistic as possible. In a good rp community some people are harmed becouse... It's realistic. I'm not saying that you should get stronger, what a weak faction should do in this situation is to surrender. It's as easy as that. Not many factions do surrender in the current massive, and we need more of that so you actually can beat another faction. In medival times there was a lot of wars, we fought to conquer. This is the truth of war, so instead of being in a small faction(which there is to many of), join a great empire to secure your survival.

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Just going to say this, because I feel someone should.
Yes, this is a medieval role play server, and trying to be realistic is fun, but forcing the smaller factions to give in just because they are weaker makes it only fun if you are the larger faction.
While I agree with you its more realistic, it takes away from the fun of building a faction. Image a player who worked hard to get the 200 silver, only to be forced into vassel-hood by a larger faction.

 

[TechPac]

Well, i do believe we all want the massive experience to be as realistic as possible. In a good rp community some people are harmed becouse... It's realistic. I'm not saying that you should get stronger, what a weak faction should do in this situation is to surrender. It's as easy as that. Not many factions do surrender in the current massive, and we need more of that so you actually can beat another faction. In medival times there was a lot of wars, we fought to conquer. This is the truth of war, so instead of being in a small faction(which there is to many of), join a great empire to secure your survival.

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However some, well most surrenders are not as easy as that, especially silver/slavery tributes. No one wants to hand one of their friends over to some powerful faction and possibly lose an RP'r and not everyone has large amounts of silver they can just hand out, and for alot of people silver is hard to obtain.

 

[Rooseus]

Just going to say this, because I feel someone should.
Yes, this is a medieval role play server, and trying to be realistic is fun, but forcing the smaller factions to give in just because they are weaker makes it only fun if you are the larger faction.
While I agree with you its more realistic, it takes away from the fun of building a faction. Image a player who worked hard to get the 200 silver, only to be forced into vassel-hood by a larger faction.

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Then surrender and agree to the terms.

 

[Rooseus]

However some, well most surrenders are not as easy as that, especially silver/slavery tributes. No one wants to hand one of their friends over to some powerful faction and possibly lose an RP'r and not everyone has large amounts of silver they can just hand out, and for alot of people silver is hard to obtain.

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If you aren't richer than a peasant you shoulden't rule a faction.

 

[LordSylveon]

Then surrender and agree to the terms.

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Lol.
Well, I for one do not condone bullying like that, and I hope I am not alone.

 

[McMuffin55]

Lol.
Well, I for one do not condone bullying like that, and I hope I am not alone.

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What? How the hell is that bullying? Massive is a PvP and RP server. If you are leading a faction, you must be prepared to defend it, and if you can't just surrender. In no way is that bullying.

 

[TechPac]

If you aren't richer than a peasant you shoulden't rule a faction.

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Faction is a varied term, it dosnt necessarily mean a kingdom, a town, or even a city, thats why they are called factions, factions can be as big as a kingdom or as small as a single mansion or house for an RP family.

 

[Rooseus]

Ture, they could be a Kingdom or a guild. However, faction is not the right term for a rp family.

 

[TechPac]

Ture, they could be a Kingdom or a guild. However, faction is not the right term for a rp family.

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It can be used as it though. Its needed to claim the land.

 

[TechPac]

My point is, its allowed to be used as such.

 

[jquaile]

People refuse to surrender out of stubbornness even in the face of overwhelming force. Now I am in Algaron and we try to steer away from outrageous demands. So we tend to ask for things that are more rp and I also like to give a choice. For example join our empire, have our flag on the tallest building etc. Refusing these kind of demands is foolish. They cost nothing and can even have benefits. People complain to staff before considering surrender terms which cost nothing but pride. And what is pride ( on massivecraft ) if you're not a pvp faction? I think this is great, I believe it would prevent foolish situations like I have mentioned.

 

[iBeSlurping]

I vote for remain the same old Way of Raiding!!!

 

[TechPac]

People refuse to surrender out of stubbornness even in the face of overwhelming force. Now I am in Algaron and we try to steer away from outrageous demands. So we tend to ask for things that are more rp and I also like to give a choice. For example join our empire, have our flag on the tallest building etc. Refusing these kind of demands is foolish. They cost nothing and can even have benefits. People complain to staff before considering surrender terms which cost nothing but pride. And what is pride ( on massivecraft ) if you're not a pvp faction? I think this is great, I believe it would prevent foolish situations like I have mentioned.

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This I agree with completely, I would never join one of these empires but a simple request like hanging a flag for a set amount of time or chests full of a set material such as wood, is a very much reasonable demand.

 

[TechPac]

What? How the hell is that bullying? Massive is a PvP and RP server. If you are leading a faction, you must be prepared to defend it, and if you can't just surrender. In no way is that bullying.

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Actually it is NOT a pvp server,if ypu ask any mod thatthey will sress that point across tje best they can. It is an RP server with pvp elements.

 

[McMuffin55]

Actually it is NOT a pvp server,if ypu ask any mod thatthey will sress that point across tje best they can. It is an RP server with pvp elements.

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My point is, it has PvP. Your argument is invalid.

 

[iBeSlurping]

Actually it is NOT a pvp server,if ypu ask any mod thatthey will sress that point across tje best they can. It is an RP server with pvp elements.

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Then let me ask you something, do you see PvP On? It may not be a "Fully Pvp Server" but there is still pvp going on.

 

[TechPac]

Then let me ask you something, do you see PvP On? It may not be a "Fully Pvp Server" but there is still pvp going on.

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I am aware of this, just the mods do not like it when people call this a pvp server, that is not the servers goal, thats why they require RP reasons for PvP just feels like some people will look for any RP excuse to do it.

 

[Shawzie]

I think that in the ender pearl topic if you throw a ender pearl through a window one block wide in the same height your at it will come up. *climbed Through window* and that any other ender pearls won't work

 

[Orenbus]

Well, i do believe we all want the massive experience to be as realistic as possible. In a good rp community some people are harmed becouse... It's realistic. I'm not saying that you should get stronger, what a weak faction should do in this situation is to surrender. It's as easy as that. Not many factions do surrender in the current massive, and we need more of that so you actually can beat another faction. In medival times there was a lot of wars, we fought to conquer. This is the truth of war, so instead of being in a small faction(which there is to many of), join a great empire to secure your survival.

Click to shrink...

I agree with this 100%

In fact when a user first joins the server they are advised and encouraged to seek safety by joining a faction. There is a sign on the /uspawn bulletin board pointing this out. There is also a reason why alliances form so that factions of all sizes can work together to defend their borders, this is how it should work, and there is also the ability for factions to merge and become larger factions therefore allowing for more epic builds and epic wars that have realistic aspects such as wall penetration by cannons.

 

[Orenbus]

Oh something I wanted to mention in case the idea hasn't been proposed yet.

What about a custom plugin that could be developed which would be called "Beefy Blocks" or something similar. Basically the idea would be that it makes every block placed by a user (depending on type) take longer to mine or be destroyed by TNT cannons. Each block would have hit points. Natural blocks can be about three to six times more difficult to break in claimed chunks by those not of the faction or given access to the chunk for building, and player placed blocks would harden over time (several days) to as much as one or two dozen times their normal strength. This would make buildings and walls specifically much more meaningful if we allowed penetration by players during raids.

Limited protection would be possible so that players can't just burrow through castle walls within a matter of seconds or use TNT to do the same making battles more realistic giving defenders time to realize what is happening and would limit or dissuade griefing, since the time needing to invest would be enormous so there would be a natural deterrent.

This would solve both the need to allow players to penetrate, impenetrable bases to make battles more realistic and allow use of TNT cannons for something more than just a defensive tool. While at the same time this would give defenders much stronger options to protect their bases from raiders, again while keeping everything as realistic as possible.