Survival Map Planning & World Future

Discussion in 'General' started by MonMarty, Jun 17, 2020.

  1. MonMarty

    MonMarty Thotsune Miku Staff Member Server Owner

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    It's been a while since a more public blog post about the progress of Survival map generation. While the last months certainly haven't gone to waste, I won't deny it: A lot of delays were also because I slacked off, or because it was just easier to do that "quick thing" for lore which ended up taking a whole day. There's a couple of things that went wrong early in the pipeline, some of our bo2's did not export correctly causing the program to crash, the program itself wasn't rendering or accepting 1.13 blocks, and when exporting at 1.14 caused the server to crash. Eventually these tech issues were resolved, but then I came to the startling discovery, in talking to a Game Staff member, that Survival players have a wildly different expectation of the survival map than I had making it. When I was first asked by SpunSugar to make a new Survival map for Survival, she simply asked me "1.13 content". Which for sure, is something that still needed to be done, but somehow the new map had become synonymous with "better TPS" in Survival, and that is far from the truth, in fact, at that point in time, a new map would have caused TPS to get even worse. So I asked Birb to prioritize the TPS and lag issues in Survival, and he's made some really good progress with that, enough so that the road is made for the new Survival maps. After internal discussions among Game Staff, myself, and tech, we explored the best way to move forward with map generation. When I took over from Cayorion, Essalonia was supposed to be the "map that killed all maps", so large we would never run out of space, so pretty I could never do better, and so varied that it offered plenty of choice.

    Obviously, it doesn't take an expert to see that problems with Essalonia started showing:
    • Production was rushed because I had 1 week to make a new map, so many biomes felt "empty". Just scenery with trees. The Bo2 pack was massive (600) but not as massive as it could be.
    • Large maps, so it turns out, actually cause more TPS issues than smaller ones. The fact that Essalonia is 14kx14k versus the 8-10k square maps of the past was a resource drain. I bought a new machine in the meantime to facilitate Esslonia its own rackserver.
    • Essalonia does not have any caves anywhere, because I simply lacked the skill to make them at that time. Cave layers are a unique feature in Worldpainter which required more learning, time which I did not have.
    • The Mushroom biome was garbage dubbed the "badlands", wildly unpopular and really badly sourced among the players. It basically made a giant black hole on the map barely anyone wanted to settle.
    • There was a major technical fiasco with leaf decay and the lack of that feature early on.
    During conversations with Game and Tech, we came to the following conclusions:
    • It is better to have many smaller maps than one large map, according to tech, regarding resource management and keeping TPS reasonable. Lag free gaming is important for us.
    • While the logic of keeping "all players in one map encourages community contact" seemed to make sense, it actually doesn't. A faction has a certain "commuting distance" around itself that it will choose not to walk beyond. The neighbors there are always the same. If however a faction has a base in 3 different worlds, the commuting difference results in more contact with more factions, since the odds of neighboring factions being the same in different worlds is very small, thus actually creating more contact between factions for having multiple worlds, even if the total population per world is less.
    • Essalonia is starting to show damage because of the lack of MassiveRestore. We will not put MassiveRestore or MassiveTax on the server. But Essalonia's degredation does mean it will have an expiry date at some point.
    This resulted in the following decisions:
    • MassiveCraft will release smaller thematic maps from here-on out, as opposed to massive 20 biome maps.
    • MassiveCraft will allow multi-map basing again, but with shorter ClaimNear to accomodate map size. This is going from a 14kx14k map to 2x 7kx7k maps.
    • The first up are "Project Hot" and "Project Cold", which are roughly the biomes of the recent poll divided into two temperature related maps.
    • Project Hot (previously called Project Atoll), is already under construction. Some of you may have seen the 4 hour marathon streams yesterday and today. It will be the first to come out, and Project Cold should come roughly a month after.
    • We will start making more aggressive community info sampling for map generation, as opposed to me just deciding what biomes look cool, or us doing a very generic "ice theme" or "volcano theme" poll on the forums.
    • Moving forward, instead of dumping the finished product onto the playerbase, we will upload an alpha version for players to walk around and critique. Then we take the criticism along and make a beta version, which will be accessible to players to walk around in and explore for a while without claiming or block breaking. After a week or so, we will do an official launch where everyone gets dropped back to spawn, and the world is properly released.
    • We are stating officially here that Essalonia now has an expiry date. The world will not expire until MassiveCraft has at least 3 to 4 new worlds to replace it, and there is a minimum death timer of 1.5 years from now, potentially even 2 years depending on the population growth of survival (if it grows faster, maps are made faster, but Essalonia must also remain around longer to buffer that player increase).
    More on Project Hot:
    • Project Hot is a map designed to accomodate 1.13 stuff. It will have all shades of ocean biomes (save for the cold ones which are for Project Cold).
    • Following the Poll undertaken in the playerbase with roughly 200 responses, we generated a "biome list", calculated the total votes per biome, and created a rough square mileage of what kind of biomes the players wanted. The exact plains are listed in the image below.
    [​IMG]
    • From Essalonia's 600 bo2's, this world will have 3000, including not before seen Farahdeen Bo2's from 2015 that were never used, and really old bo2's from Ellador and Daendroc, for those who can still remember them.
    • This will be the first hand painted map with caves. There are low level lava flooded tunnels with glowstone ceilings, massive volcano lava oceans with islands, canyons with lava lakes and fossils and bones, regular dark tunnels and more.
    • This will be the first hand painted map where Dwarven structures make their return, tunnels carved into mountains with Dwarven halls and rooms.
    • Production will be streamed in sessions of 4 hour marathons in the coming days. I might take a few days off because clicking hundreds of WorldPainter buttons is mindnumbing work, but this is the (at time of writing) progress:
      • Planning 100%
      • Geography 100%
      • Bo2 Selection 100%
      • Bo2 painting 50% (Desert, Savannah, Jungle, Dark Forest, Badlands are complete)
      • Cave work 0%
      • Ocean painting 0%
      • Dwarven Ruins 0%
    • This with 8 hours of rough production time. I'm making good progress specifically because of the aborted map production from the past months. Various brushes were imported from those aborted project files where I screwed around with caves and dwarven ruins, meaning all that work was not for nothing when the previous project was terminated. Project Hot officially started production yesterday.
    This just roughly summarizes my personal work for Survival. Survival itself can still expect more content from both Game and Tech, as Tech is hard at work on the Races Plugin, while Birb is also still looking into the 1.14 and potentially straight ahead to 1.15 update, but I can't say too much on this yet. I know many feel I don't do enough for Survival anymore, but I am still committed to providing Survival with the highest quality survival maps found on any Factions/Towny server.

    And to close, a few screenshots of the Desert in Project Hot:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Ninja124r

    Ninja124r brainlag Premium
    1. -={The Great Kingdom of SunKiss}=-

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    very excited :)
     
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  3. indyfan98

    indyfan98 I'm not narcissistic. I'm just better than you. Supremium
    1. Dexai AU Forums

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    Are the maps still to be based in-lore, like how previous maps were or will they be separate from the geography lore? If the former is true, does the current map have a name for those of us who want to fit with the racial and cultural themes of the lore?
     
  4. hardname12

    hardname12 1v7 no potz

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    looks good
     
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  5. MDJTHEHERO

    MDJTHEHERO Beggar

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    cant wait to play
     
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  6. gioem

    gioem Your Local Orb of Positivity

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    Sounds Great! very excited for the future.
     
  7. Athorian

    Athorian Nobleman of Helvetica

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    I'm sick of hearing the same problem from MonMarty
    'our map didn't export correctly and it crashed, causing x issues with blocks'
    Fix it for god sake, we are the players, we are here to enjoy the content
    And you are supposed to be the producers of the content.
    If you don't like to have the weight and responsibility of being staff (what little weight it has these days) over your shoulders
    then don't be staff.
    Give the people what they want... that's the fundamental to any business
     
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  8. Shibani

    Shibani A totally serious person.

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    ohmygodtheruinso-o
     
  9. Jalapeno690

    Jalapeno690 Doge of Helvetica Supremium

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    Get out you ghost, you aren’t supposed to be here
     
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  10. Cyliah

    Cyliah Cute Sunflower by Day, Sassy Bitch by Night.

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    I'm very excited! Lots of nice changes, congrats guys <3
     
  11. HeyitsNano

    HeyitsNano Regalian Lesser Supremium

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    Excited to see all of this change
     
  12. DarenGalen

    DarenGalen Draven The Honourable Supremium

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    Will there be any system to copy over builds? alot of factions have put alot of work into essalonia and id hate to see it all to waste in 2 years.
     
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  13. Mojaven

    Mojaven The world cannot live without love.

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    @MonMarty This looks great! Excited about it. Sorry for rude statement I've made during the cancelation of an upcoming survival map. I was upset in the moment and pointed my anger towards you. I'm sorry.
     
  14. Jalapeno690

    Jalapeno690 Doge of Helvetica Supremium

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    All that RP
     
  15. MyCatBubbles

    MyCatBubbles Watcher of the Watchmen, Executor of Regalians

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    Honestly I’d be down for a bigger better version of Essalonia, completely remake it and transfer over builds. Essalonia v2 plz. But honestly Essalonia is the perfect world for factions coming from a lore standpoint, hence as to why I personally shill so hard for it
     
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    #15 MyCatBubbles, Jun 18, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  16. Jalapeno690

    Jalapeno690 Doge of Helvetica Supremium

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    NewIthania when?????
     
  17. EricKilla

    EricKilla Supremium

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    Ultimately I think this is for the best. Looking forward to the future maps!
     
  18. MonMarty

    MonMarty Thotsune Miku Staff Member Server Owner

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    Status Update
    • Planning 100%
    • Geography 100%
    • Bo2 Selection 100%
    • Bo2 painting 90% (All biomes done except Grasslands)
    • Cave work 10% (Lava Lakes done, nothing else yet)
    • Ocean painting 20% (River Biomes done, Oceans untouched yet)
    • Dwarven Ruins 0%
    You can watch past hours map making marathons on my VODs
    https://mixer.com/MonMarty?vod=ONkruyjBmUyJef9Ql04cEg (Scroll down, click past streams)
     
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  19. MonMarty

    MonMarty Thotsune Miku Staff Member Server Owner

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    There has been a few more comments like this, so I will try to reply to them all:

    Posterity is important, to me anyway. I have broached the subject with Game Staff cautiously whether build transfers are an option, and some of them already broached the subject back to me as well. I think for the time being, the best I can say is "We are cautiously in favor of the idea, but will not give absolute answers yet". It is really hard to look 2 years in the future and say whether all factors (manpower, tech support, world availability) etc. are still optimal by that time, but I morally don't like the idea of wiping out years of work from players, so there's a reasonable chance some form of build saving will happen. The decision is ultimately up to Game Staff however. Not me.
     
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  20. MonMarty

    MonMarty Thotsune Miku Staff Member Server Owner

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    Survival needs don't "exactly" align with map creation and lore. The problem with "we want Dwarven caves and ruins like Ellador" but "we don't want ice lands like Jorrhildr or Ellador" means you already go off the beaten track with Lore, since the Dwarves have historically remained in ice capped regions. A simple solution is to micro-scale the environments to Essalonia. Essalonia was always designed to be "a world of everything" with all climates, so what'll likely happen is that this map will get some sort of name, with an unofficial distinction of "Western Essalonia" with Project Cold being "Northern Essalonia". Something along those lines.
     
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  21. EricKilla

    EricKilla Supremium

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    I'm really glad to see that you appear generally in favor of the idea of copying builds (though I understand you'll be leaving the decision to game). I had made a post in the MassiveCraft Factions Discord idea voting channel that has received a generally positive reaction regarding copying builds. I'm of the opinion if we are opening up faction build transfers, it may be best to start that early, possibly within a month of the first batch of new worlds opening up. Perhaps a forum thread application/waiting list (not unlike the current "Clean Up Essalonia!" restoration thread) where we can apply to have builds moved.

    I'm thinking that starting it off early, as opposed to only opening it perhaps a month before Essalonia Retirement, will make it easier in the end for staff, as they won't just have a flurry of transfer requests dumped on them. Also, it'll be nice for us factions folks - now that I know Essalonia is slowly on it's way out, I'm not going to be building in Essalonia anymore. That said, I do have a few builds I'd like moved and I'm not super hot on the idea of having a big plot of land where I'm going to put said build just sitting empty for a year waiting for the build transfers to start. Either way, I'm still happy if we can transfer builds whenever. There's definitely a precedent for doing this kind of thing from pre-reset world deletions, so I don't think it'd be a problem to do here.

    TL;DR: If we do build transfers, it'd be better for factions players (and probably more efficient for staff) to start build transfers right away, so we're not bombarding you with requests right before Essalonia dies, and also so we don't have to have empty land in the new world waiting for a year before we can put the build on it.
     
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  22. VonZane

    VonZane The Racist Grandpa of Val'roth

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    @MonMarty If y'all could put together a rules page for eligible build transfers, that would be fantastic. I've noticed a lot of folks are acting like they're in limbo, debating whether to continue improving their builds in Essa or not for fear they won't be carried over. I know I'm experiencing a bit of that stress myself. Also, are claim shapes going to be carried over too, or just builds? I know a lot of factions (including mine) have more claimed land than member power...not sure what to do if we have to claim our faction builds twice over.
     
  23. MyCatBubbles

    MyCatBubbles Watcher of the Watchmen, Executor of Regalians

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    I’ll bid a trillion Zimbabwean dollars on your next art auction if you do that.. and plz make southern essalonia
     
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