Archived Stop Destroying The Economy.

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twinCatalysts

twinCatalysts

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Okay, so this is going to be mostly a rant, but there are proposed solutions to each of the problems that are listed.
Ever since the EULA thing dropped, the server has gone insane. Like, off the charts insane.
Mainly the introduction of the /fix cost, and now, more recently, the introduction of godgear4alls.
First, the fix. Now that fix costs 1r/% there are thousands of regals being pulled out of the economy. Some may consider this good, some may consider it bad. Either way, it costs more now to fix a set of god armour than it does to buy a whole new one. This, naturally, means that the price of god gear is going to go up to match, right?
Who the hell knows now that you can buy about 150 pieces of it for 9$ US? That's right, you can put literally over a hundred pieces of god armour *or* weapons into circulation by paying the low low price of only 9$, which is valued historically at about 3.5k regals. That means, quite simply, that either the regal to IRL money ratio will increase dramatically (probably to multiple thousands per dollar) or the price of god stuff will become essentially worthless. Neither are good for the server, quite frankly, because a lot of epople buy their premium with regals, and if it suddenly goes from about 3k to buy a month to 20k, there will be many less people who can afford it. Or god stuff can become so worthless that there's no point in trying to pvp for it, make it or basically do anything related to it other than use it.
This needs to stop, right now, or the server will collapse in on itself.
Proposed solutions:
Make fix 1r/5% with it rounding up like faction taxes do in order to keep the price of god stuff somewhat stable
And make the godarmour for all cost anywhere from 40-50$ (Yeah, that's how big the difference has to be for it to become about equal for the current ratio)
And make the god weapons for all near 100$ (because they're worth more, and that's how much it would be to balance them out
Or, just remove the latter two, that's also an option.
 
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Let me itemize this for my opinions. since they vary between points.
twinCatalysts said:
Who the hell knows now that you can buy about 150 pieces of it for 9$ US? That's right, you can put literally over a hundred pieces of god armour *or* weapons into circulation by paying the low low price of only 9$, which is valued historically at about 3.5k regals. That means, quite simply, that either the regal to IRL money ratio will increase dramatically (probably to multiple thousands per dollar) or the price of god stuff will become essentially worthless. Neither are good for the server, quite frankly, because a lot of epople buy their premium with regals, and if it suddenly goes from about 3k to buy a month to 20k, there will be many less people who can afford it. Or god stuff can become so worthless that there's no point in trying to pvp for it, make it or basically do anything related to it other than use it.
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This is not as big a deal as you think it is and let me tell you why. Who the hell wants to fight with their server lored and gold rare god armor pieces when they can use normal armor and put the rest in a chest somewhere safe. I donate a lot and i would never just buy a full set for $36. Thats insane.

twinCatalysts said:
Make fix 1r/5% with it rounding up like faction taxes do in order to keep the price of god stuff somewhat stable
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I agree with /fix. My stance is to have 300 points a day like we had earlier, and any fix after that costs regals.

twinCatalysts said:
And make the godarmour for all cost anywhere from 40-50$ (Yeah, that's how big the difference has to be for it to become about equal for the current ratio)
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Absolutly not

twinCatalysts said:
And make the god weapons for all near 100$ (because they're worth more, and that's how much it would be to balance them out
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Hell no.
 
znake1468 said:
Let me itemize this for my opinions. since they vary between points.

This is not as big a deal as you think it is and let me tell you why. Who the hell wants to fight with their server lored and gold rare god armor pieces when they can use normal armor and put the rest in a chest somewhere safe. I donate a lot and i would never just buy a full set for $36. Thats insane.
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Like it or not, those items are in circulation now, and they're going to become as common and as worthless as cake4alls if it stays. Nobody sells cake4alls but they're still basically the most common thing on the planet, the same thing will happen with these, except they're actually useful and people will actually use them for things, because they're full-fledged god gear for christ sakes.
If they were like, gold swords, this wouldn't be a problem at all.
 
twinCatalysts said:
Like it or not, those items are in circulation now, and they're going to become as common and as worthless as cake4alls if it stays. Nobody sells cake4alls but they're still basically the most common thing on the planet, the same thing will happen with these, except they're actually useful and people will actually use them for things, because they're full-fledged god gear for christ sakes.
If they were like, gold swords, this wouldn't be a problem at all.
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Your adjustment suggestions are super exaggerated tho.
 
znake1468 said:
Your adjustment suggestions are super exaggerated tho.
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I might have done the math slightly wrong in the haste (going over it it seems I wrote one number wrong and it messed up some division) but either way it is still a problem.
9$ is way too low, especially for the god weapons.
It has to be, at the very, bare minimum least 25$ in order to not completely destroy the economy, for the god armour. Naturally it would be double that for the weapons, which are worth about twice as much.
 
Also, to rebutt your point that it won't go into circulation further, I tabbed back in after writing that last response to find that multiple people were already selling the items off.
 
I don't see why it's not just lowered to a prot 1 or 2 piece. I don't think most of the people who are donating for it really care about the enchants, just the recognition/helping the server/for the lolz, in which case they probably wouldn't stop because the enchants were lowered.
 
I'll throw my two cents into this:

I think the /fix is fine where it is, because "technically" it is making regals worth more.

But with the addition of the new god armor, the price for said armor is now a fixed amount. In other words, as the regal becomes scarce, the price for items goes up. But if there is a lot of an item, that price will drop.

So right now we're basically swapping the Regal for god armor in the long run. I don't think this is a good idea, as it causes a lot of awkward situations to pop up. I could list them all, but I don't feel like writing a book.

So I do agree that the price for the god armor should either go up, or be removed entirely. I know that it's a way to have more donation features, but we're already in an inflated god armor economy. Add into the shrinking amount of Regals and you're stuck with people not buying god armor anymore, since they have the armor already.

Meanwhile, as the stack of armor live in those shop chests, regals shrink in circulation.

So by solving the possible Regal inflation, the PvP market of god armor has gotten out of control.
So I think the /fix should stay the same, but that armor needs some nerfing. Heck, maybe make it iron instead? or Gold? something that won't break the PvP market.
 
FireFan96 said:
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While I agree with most of what you said, I still think the /fix price should be lower. changes to the economy should be gradual, as if they're too big they'll shock and damage it a lot. If they changed it to 1r/5% it would be more gradual, while still pulling money out of the economy quite easily.
 
twinCatalysts said:
1r/5% it would be more gradual, while still pulling money out of the economy quite easily.
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Point taken. I think that right now the /fix is fine because there's like, 2 million-ish Regals in circulation? I do think after that number drops, then the price of everything will be adjusted for it, including /fix.

At least I hope that's the case. Why wouldn't every tax, /fix, rent area, and lore drink be adjusted for the deflation? Just seems like normal economics to me. So hopefully everyone will get what they want in the long run with prices changing.

Now if only I could say the same thing to god armor. Yeah, I think only solution is to make that donation armor gold or something that won't get much battle use.
 
@twinCatalysts A quick question before I write a response: Are all the donating options that have to do with armor and weapons (Boots4all, Helmet4all, etc) specifically God items? (Protection 4 Unbreaking 3?) I can't find any information as to what enchants are on the items.
 
Prot 4
Fire Prot 4
Unbreak 3
Proj Prot 4
War 3 (joke)

So its better than god armor, since the only thing it is missing is blast protection (which is useless)
 
Let's do some math here.

At the time of writing this post, there are 211 players online.

Let's say someone decides to buy the following donation options –
  • Helmet4All - $9
  • Leggings4All - $9
  • Boots4All - $9
For $27 spent, a total of 16 diamonds worth of armor has been awarded to 211 different players, or a total of 3376 diamond has been inserted into the server's economy. With diamond prices averaging anywhere between 0.8 to 1 regal per diamond, you're looking at 2700 on the low end and 3376 on the high end of worth being inserted into the economy.

Now, that's just taking the price of the raw diamonds, and doesn't even count enchants.

Since I don't know the average price of enchants, let's just take the average price of a piece of god armor, sitting at roughly 150 regals.

Three pieces of armor, at 150 regals each, for a total of 450 regals worth of armor per player, for a grand total of 94,950 regals worth of armor given to 211 players.

This total amount could also be exponentially increased by either buying additional donations such as Axe4All or Sword4All, or donating when a larger amount of people is online.

In my honest opinion, while I see where the idea of implementation this has come from with recent EULA compliance, this will directly counteract the changes that were made to armor durability and the addition of a cost to /fix, which I believe are both good things. This is fishing x2, and is a direct counter to changes that were made that would have set the server down a good path.
 
That's rediculous...
 
Here's the issue with the idea that Less Regals = Higher Prices: It doesn't. This isn't the real world where prices fluctuate and currencies change value in relation to items and each other, this is Minecraft, where you can literally make your own god armor for free if you want. The real world has only a single comparison - produce. You can grow your own food, and everyone's apples or tomatoes are exactly the same, leading to price being the only factor, which leads to overall low prices on grown food (we won't get into brand names or organic/factory farmed, those are illusions). Similar to that food, anything and everything on MassiveCraft can be gained or crafted for free by any player dedicated to doing so. As such, price becomes the sole factor in a players sales, which leads to prices always being low regardless of the value of Regals.

On top of this, most of the people who play Massive aren't economic geniuses - they don't understand the value of regals any more than most people understand the value of euros or dollars. They only know that this guy is selling armor for 250 a set while that guy is selling for 200 a set, and they buy accordingly.

Removing regals from circulation will not increase prices unless ALL producers of products like God Armor/Weapons get together and decide to raise their prices by a certain amount or percentage, either over time or in a single jump. And even then, that won't do much because then people will just make their own armor/weapons instead.
 
Yeah the new donating system is pretty broken I myself managed to accumulate 18 God Swords 12 God Axes and 4 full suits of God Armor in just one evening. Yes from first look that's pretty damn game breaking but I know and everyone else should know donating like that will not continue. It just like before when they introduced Apple Tree events and the other server events. The first few weeks we were flooded with events to where apples became so common you couldn't give them away but then things slowed and now Apple Events are pretty uncommon.

The same will happen with the God Gear donations and in the meantime this will spark a crapton of PvP which is something this server desperately needs. It will bring in new players and give them easy starter gear so they stick around. Who knows those people may then decide they love this server and wanna donate for premium. I fully intend to spend this weekend raiding as much as possible cause I mean why not? All that gear just going to waste if it isn't spillng blood. :P
 
Jackmo_Jones said:
Yeah the new donating system is pretty broken I myself managed to accumulate 18 God Swords 12 God Axes and 4 full suits of God Armor in just one evening. Yes from first look that's pretty damn game breaking but I know and everyone else should know donating like that will not continue. It just like before when they introduced Apple Tree events and the other server events. The first few weeks we were flooded with events to where apples became so common you couldn't give them away but then things slowed and now Apple Events are pretty uncommon.

The same will happen with the God Gear donations and in the meantime this will spark a crapton of PvP which is something this server desperately needs. It will bring in new players and give them easy starter gear so they stick around. Who knows those people may then decide they love this server and wanna donate for premium. I fully intend to spend this weekend raiding as much as possible cause I mean why not? All that gear just going to waste if it isn't spillng blood. :P
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God gear isn't apples.
Apples were never as useful as god gear in pvp (From what I understand gapples were disabled when apple trees was implemented)
Apples also don't come with your name on them, or are as cool
Or are better than their normally-obtainable counterparts.
God stuff was already harmed enough to begin with, this is just going to kill it for good.
 
Mecharic said:
Here's the issue with the idea that Less Regals = Higher Prices: It doesn't. This isn't the real world where prices fluctuate and currencies change value in relation to items and each other
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not to mention the fact that this also wouldn't happen if it was real life

If it was it would be:
More regals (inflation) = higher prices
Less regals (deflation) = lower prices

now since this isn't real life it only follows this to a certain extend because of the reasons Mecharic stated.
(shhh @Madus you're an expert with this stuf, get in here :3 )
 
Mecharic said:
Similar to that food, anything and everything on MassiveCraft can be gained or crafted for free by any player dedicated to doing so. As such, price becomes the sole factor in a players sales, which leads to prices always being low regardless of the value of Regals.
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You underestimate the laziness of the average player. Sure, there'll be more people putting their own god gear together. But I reckon most will still purchase, even for a higher price.

Mecharic said:
On top of this, most of the people who play Massive aren't economic geniuses - they don't understand the value of regals any more than most people understand the value of euros or dollars. They only know that this guy is selling armor for 250 a set while that guy is selling for 200 a set, and they buy accordingly.
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Once again, nobody's an economic genius in real life either, and most economic theories rely on that fact. Consumer behaviour is studied based on statistics and psychology, not on the assumption that they'll make the most logical decision.

I'm going to wait a week and then pass an analysis when I'm bored.
 
twinCatalysts said:
God gear isn't apples.
Apples were never as useful as god gear in pvp (From what I understand gapples were disabled when apple trees was implemented)
Apples also don't come with your name on them, or are as cool
Or are better than their normally-obtainable counterparts.
God stuff was already harmed enough to begin with, this is just going to kill it for good.
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A stack of apples used to cost as much as a full suit of God Armor does now. They are hard to farm quickly and are required to make Resistance potions which are very important to PvP... well at least they were before Gapples were enabled.
 
I am not too experienced in the economic field nor the PvP field, but to be quite honest, ever since the EULA changes and introduction to Godgear4all, I actually have the stuff to have a decent chance against other players, and share equal risks. I do, however, know what should not be done, or are a really 'lame' solution.
  1. Basing real donations 100% off of the MassiveCraft economy = lolnope. They need money; not another economy to worry about, especially after a now unpredictable fate considering budgets. And making God weaponry be worth $100? That's how you get people to not donate. If about 30+ people have already done the $9 donation, Massive gained almost $300. However, getting 3 people to do a $100 donation more than once is certainly a lot more rare, simply for the case that one person probably won't spend such a large amount at once in comparison to a lot of people doing a little.
  2. Burn the armour? You are going to lose the weaponry in fights, and in seeing the gear having multiple protection enchants, I am assuming one could just finish it off in a darkroom or by simply trashing it / fixing it with an McMMo anvil and salvaging it.
  3. Go into a vanilla anvil and throw the old God gear / diamond gear together with the newer one? It will fix the armour at the expense of XP, which there is an infinite amount of. If some of you darkroom as much as I am told I need to, I can bet it's not uncommon to have more than 20 levels at a time. You don't have to use the /fix command when Minecraft already has its own way to 'endlessly' do it, followed by now an 'endless' amount of new gear, and all that diamond you all say there is way too much of. God breastplate + diamond breastplate + 20 (about) XP = 30 (or so) Regals in theory by the cost of those materials, and can get rid of those annoying, unenchanted pieces. A yellow name and a pretty description won't matter nearly as much when everyone has it and is meant to be used practically.
Again, I know quite little about this, and probably sound quite ridiculous to those who do know a lot about it due to my solutions really only making small chips, if even. Nonetheless, even the most intolerable ideas can be innovated or carved down to become a really great one. Every criticism counts. shrugs
 
Also to point out. I'm more inclined to purchase 3 $10 donations than i am to purchase 1 $30 donation. Even though its the same price. Its the same reason why most shops advertise stuff as like $9.99 instead of $10.
 
znake1468 said:
Also to point out. I'm more inclined to purchase 3 $10 donations than i am to purchase 1 $30 donation. Even though its the same price. Its the same reason why most shops advertise stuff as like $9.99 instead of $10.
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In this case you're getting 3 things rather than one I don't understand what you're trying to say here
I'm saying that it's very unbalanced for it to be 10$. If only a third of the server got the weapon and it was ten dollars, that would be fine. I'd be pretty much okay with that.
Jackmo_Jones said:
A stack of apples used to cost as much as a full suit of God Armor does now. They are hard to farm quickly and are required to make Resistance potions which are very important to PvP... well at least they were before Gapples were enabled.
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And yes, but they were not the most important thing in pvp (Like god gear is) plus you needed to grind alchemy for a lonngggg time to even make proper use of them.
Mecharic said:
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The only way to really raise god gear prices is to remove god gear itself from circulation. Removing regals on it's own won't do anything, although if we don't remove regals from the system, prices will fluctuate accordingly. This happened before with silver from what I understand.

Keeping this around will only damage the economy, and that will damage premium sales even more than they already are.

And unfortunately
Medvekoma said:
I'm going to wait a week and then pass an analysis when I'm bored.
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Within a week of something like this being implemented, it could harm the economy a lot. And there wouldn't be an easy fix to it, I don't think.
I'd reccomend an immediate change to gold armour/weapons or an increase of price if you're not planning on removing it, or, at the very least make the armour not straight up better than any normal armour you can get that is just ridiculously stupid.
 
The cost of fix has now been reduced. It now costs .5 regals per 1% of Fix.

We are currently watching the market and money situation to evaluate if we need to make more changes, where, and what to modify.

At this time the God Armor4All is not being removed, but staff will discuss rotating items in the shop so it isn't always available for purchase.
 
I just, do not have much else to add to this. The economy has been so shifted and obliterated along with rebuilt that nothing and its pricing can be quite sure of itself anymore. With god weapons and armors being worth 20, yes, literally 20 regals now, a chunk of profits that people would make as, and from a pvper is flat gone.

Not to mention the /vote giving 10 regals, and premium giving none, and while the premium isnt too much of a problem being gone, just a sudden dent in the economy, with everyone having access to 90 regals a day anyone, and everyone can get quite the lot with simply logging on and voting. And before someone says "you could do that before the vote increase!" 3 to 10 regals is literally a %66.6^? increase, which will as twin had mentioned, make everything cost So much more. Please, if this thread gets a legitimant review, Fix. The. Economy.
 
FireFan96 said:
Prot 4
Fire Prot 4
Unbreak 3
Proj Prot 4
War 3 (joke)

So its better than god armor, since the only thing it is missing is blast protection (which is useless)
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I really hope that idea was a joke, because if that were to happen the server would just revolve around who has the most alt accounts to collect the best gear in the game without any effort needed.
 
I was just listing the enchantments of the armor for Alj23, as his last post was asking about the specifics.

I wasn't proposing anything, just noting what the enchants were. Personally I hate the over inflation of this stuff.
 
FireFan96 said:
I was just listing the enchantments of the armor for Alj23, as his last post was asking about the specifics.

I wasn't proposing anything, just noting what the enchants were. Personally I hate the over inflation of this stuff.
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My bad, didn't see the context in which you said this.
 
As we have said in other threads at the moment the gift4all is making up for or did make up for the drop in premium me saw coming with the eula changes, we are working on more features that will hopefully take its place as the money maker but at this time we cannot simply remove it without a replacement.
 
twinCatalysts said:
Like it or not, those items are in circulation now, and they're going to become as common and as worthless as cake4alls if it stays. Nobody sells cake4alls but they're still basically the most common thing on the planet, the same thing will happen with these, except they're actually useful and people will actually use them for things, because they're full-fledged god gear for christ sakes.
If they were like, gold swords, this wouldn't be a problem at all.
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I'm pretty sure stone is the most common item in minecraft :P
 
twinCatalysts said:
I might have done the math slightly wrong in the haste (going over it it seems I wrote one number wrong and it messed up some division) but either way it is still a problem.
9$ is way too low, especially for the god weapons.
It has to be, at the very, bare minimum least 25$ in order to not completely destroy the economy, for the god armour. Naturally it would be double that for the weapons, which are worth about twice as much.
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Then again.... Nobody would want to pay 25$ for a thing they can get ingame for about 20 regal ingame, or 4 cents of real life currency... Are you smoking the shit that znake is on?
 
pokyug said:
Then again.... Nobody would want to pay 25$ for a thing they can get ingame for about 20 regal ingame, or 4 cents of real life currency... Are you smoking the shit that znake is on?
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At the time of making this post the items were worth approximately 7.5x their current value.
Within the time from it's creation to now it has dropped that substantially.
pokyug said:
I'm pretty sure stone is the most common item in minecraft :P
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Stone has use and hence value. Cake does not.
 
twinCatalysts said:
At the time of making this post the items were worth approximately 7.5x their current value.
Within the time from it's creation to now it has dropped that substantially.
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Regardless, when a person buys a Gift4All, they get an item that was (According to your numbers) 150 regals of value. 150 regals is equivalent to 30 cents of United States currency (Based off of current regal pricing). Which we all know that before gift4alls god weapons were not 150, more around 200 regals per item. Making its value 40 cents of real currency.

In my experience, people typically buy Gift4Alls during peak hours. Peak hours tend to average out 250. Meaning to fully compensate you'd have to charge a player .40 x 250 = $100. Even if you value god weapons at 150 that's still 30 x 250 = $75.

The issue is that people will not pay this much, Massivecraft has to maintain a low IRL cost in order to keep appeal to players wishing to buy a Gift4All.
Currently the value of Gift4Alls is .04 x 250 = $10
And they are charging $13 for the purchase.
Staff have listened to us, and raised the price.
 
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