Archived Reinstate Traits For Pvp - Proposal

[MorgothTheDark]

Hello everyone, I am here to propose the reinstatement of Trait use in PvP.

Allow me to explain my thought process on this matter. Everything you are about to read is my opinion, and as such it may not be shared by the community at large, but I'm sure I can't be the only one who feels like this. With that in mind, if you disagree with anything I have to say, feel free to share your reasoning.

Traits, as you know, are a unique feature MC offers its players. They are a way to customize your character in a fundamentally mechanically speaking sense. That is to say, they directly impact how you play the game by giving you modifiers.

Traits were removed from PvP for balance purposes. I feel as if this was not the way to handle that situation. You had a unique feature to offer incoming PvPers and you just completely removed it, instead of taking the time to appropriately balance them for use.


Now, I'm not sure who said what, or complained of what Traits in particular (although I'm certain much of it revolved around fly traits and some pissy people) but I feel as if a very valuable opportunity has been missed out on by simply eliminating the Traits from PvP.

In my opinion, you should not have removed them. You should have re-balanced them, and EXPANDED on them.

Why?

The PvP we have now is potion based, gear based, skill based, and mcmmo based. This form of PvP feels very "vanilla" to me. It's flat. It's one sided with little to no variety in combat.

You win in combat because:

- You had more potions

- You were more skilled

- You had higher mcmmo values

- You had better gear


There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but this is standard, and again I feel.... boring. Combat here feels like it does anywhere else, when it used to feel special, albeit at times a bit awkward.


The problem with Traits wasn't their existence and function in combat. It was the fact that they simply needed to be tweaked, and possibly have counters/mechanics that allowed them to be played around. A lot of them were simply too one dimensional as well.

(EX: All the different types of damage traits we had that all did the same thing, but in different damage types. It's all inherently the same trait, DAMAGE, it just changes what type you suffer from, and what resistance you needed to avoid it. This is a good step, but again, I feel too one dimensional. )






Take for example FlyWater, a Trait I seen a lot of people complaining about when it was active in PvP. Why not balance the trait instead of removing it completely?

Such as allowing a player to hit a FlyWater player with a certain block or tool to disable the trait on their enemy? Or even weaken/slow them?

See? This allows for a unique experience you couldn't have on any other server. A unique combat experience, in particular.

New things to learn. New combinations of customization to try. A new way to fight. New. Mechanics.


In my opinion, I feel as if Traits could be a huge driving force behind gaining and keeping PvPers on the server, ESPECIALLY if they are expanded on and re-balanced CORRECTLY.

Why?

Because it is a unique feature that would allow PvPers to create tailored forms of combat, and add a ton of variables, complexity, and mechanics to PvP. Thus, transforming MC PvP into something different from the other multitude of servers out there.

You don't need to delete, destroy, and restrict players. You need to modify the system they are in to allow it to be viable, creative, and balanced. Why would you remove something that made you stand out? Why would you not stand behind the original concept, accept it had some flaws, and then simply fix those flaws?

More is not ALWAYS better, but in this case, I feel as if it was. The problem was not the concept, but rather how it was implemented.

Would it not be more interesting if each PvP encounter were more varied? If there were new ways to fight on MC you'd never seen before? New powers to use, new ways to lose, and a general sense customization on the part of the PvPer?

So that you can CREATE a NEW way to fight? YOUR way?




I won't get into actually trying to balance the traits with numerical values and or weaknesses unless this gets support and serious consideration. I'm not going to waste the time until there's some grain of possibility of this being revised.

Thanks for reading.

(If FireBall is still usable in PvP btw, I don't see why it was left, because it's still on t list)

 

[FireFan96]

I stand by the decision to keep traits removed in combat. All they did was create insane damage calculations that ultimately led to issues with any balancing. Plus despite the notion that traits offered "variety," the PvPers I've heard about all had essentially the same build.

Most if not all of these traits are somewhat available with MCMMO pots, something I'd like to see gone but that's getting too far off topic.

as for making the fly traits slower, I don't think it would work. the speed is designed for travel across maps, not to circle around people in PvP.

So in the end, Traits should stay a PvE feature that disables in combat. It's just silly percentages that make damage calculations weird.

As for fireball being active in PvP, it's more of a gimmick than anything. the 5 second cooldown really limits its dps, and most PvPers I've encountered usually can dodge it and shoot a bow to kill me afterwards.

 

[MorgothTheDark]

I stand by the decision to keep traits removed in combat. All they did was create insane damage calculations that ultimately led to issues with any balancing. Plus despite the notion that traits offered "variety," the PvPers I've heard about all had essentially the same build.

Most if not all of these traits are somewhat available with MCMMO pots, something I'd like to see gone but that's getting too far off topic.

as for making the fly traits slower, I don't think it would work. the speed is designed for travel across maps, not to circle around people in PvP.

So in the end, Traits should stay a PvE feature that disables in combat. It's just silly percentages that make damage calculations weird.

As for fireball being active in PvP, it's more of a gimmick than anything. the 5 second cooldown really limits its dps, and most PvPers I've encountered usually can dodge it and shoot a bow to kill me afterwards.

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I understand your stance on the matter, however in order to continue to defend my stance, I'm going to counter a few of your points.



Most of the PvPers you seen had "meta" traits because traits were fundamentally designed incorrectly. They were designed in such a way that a specific set of traits was almost required to be of any use in PvP. There was not enough viable variety offered. This system, as it was, is not what I'm proposing be reinstated.

What I'm saying is the concept of traits in combat was good, the implementation of the idea was not.

I don't want people picking different damage modifiers again, and simply getting percentage boosts to their damage with specific weapons. That's boring, instead what I'm proposing is a revision of the system to not be like that.

There's no need for 10 traits that basically do the same thing slightly differently. That's repetitive, unimaginative, and creates a stale environment.


That was a flaw, I agree, with the old traits. I'm not suggesting they just turn the old traits on for combat again unaltered. I'm suggesting they consider re-balancing and expanding on them then adding them in.

As you put, MANY of the combat modifying traits were simply additional damage. This isn't what they should/should have been. They should have been unique modifiers that gave players unorthodox abilities/passives/weaknesses.

With the traits we had, we as PvPers, had a narrow set of traits that virtually must be incorporated

As for the flight trait's speed values, that is a fair point. I would suggest either having the speed become slowed once entering combat, having two separate versions (One slower, combat enabled, but more expensive in points)

Or, as I said, having the trait being able to be disabled by an enemy combat with some "weakness" as a counter play mechanic.

I did a lot of flywater fighting. It's not hard to get one hit in, it was hard to end a fight. Under that revision, players could still use the trait to move around the map, and have it in PvP, but be able to be countered/weakened.

As for mcmmo potions being removed, I don't agree. Other than giving more established players a significant advantage in PvP, I like having more tools to use. Not less. The more options I have to play the game, specifically fight someone or win a fight, the better in my book. So long as the means are appropriate and not unfair.

In saying that, I don't think absorption should've been a trait. The HP boosts are debatable.

Anyways, I respectfully disagree with you, but understand your stance on the matter.

 

[65jes89]

You obviously do not pvp. The logic which these arguments are based around are incredibly flawed. I don't really feel like going through your entire post and taking half an hour on this, but in summary:

• There's no "strategy" behind picking traits. Under what you are proposing, which would be extremely hard to get to work the way you want it to, it would just be a rock paper scissors type thing. This is what PvPers absolutely do not want. Nobody wants pvp to be based on luck except those who do not actually pvp, but feel that they should still be able to win against established pvpers who've been around for years.
• Your ideas around what determine the winner of a fight are flawed. At this point, it is almost entirely skill, and a bit of lag/shitty hit registration due to factors beyond massive's control. Everyone has god gear, potions are easy to come by, and mcmmo is all but useless in pvp, except for the minor advantage skull splitter and serrated strike give you. Obviously having more potions is part of it... but everyone starts out with the same number of potions. If you miss your pots or take more damage, then that's your fault. Not really sure what your point was there.
• Counters to traits are frankly just stupid. It again makes a rock paper scissors type feeling that nobody wants to see.
• The rest of your post is more or less just about re-adding flywater. This would be the single worst thing you could to with traits for the pvp community. What do you think will be accomplished by slowing people down with waterfly? The problem will be the exact same, people won't be able to hit each other unless they want to risk being hit. It allows for infinite running without the chance of being caught or dying.
• Your second post, again, talks about what would lead to a rock paper scissors type meta.
• McMMO potions being removed is a must. It doesn't add any strategy or whatever you think it does. It just means more potions you have to worry about. Pot management in vanilla minecraft is perfectly balanced on its own, you don't need 5-6 different kinds of potions to worry about.

 

[MorgothTheDark]

You obviously do not pvp. The logic which these arguments are based around are incredibly flawed. I don't really feel like going through your entire post and taking half an hour on this, but in summary:

• There's no "strategy" behind picking traits. Under what you are proposing, which would be extremely hard to get to work the way you want it to, it would just be a rock paper scissors type thing. This is what PvPers absolutely do not want. Nobody wants pvp to be based on luck except those who do not actually pvp, but feel that they should still be able to win against established pvpers who've been around for years.
• Your ideas around what determine the winner of a fight are flawed. At this point, it is almost entirely skill, and a bit of lag/shitty hit registration due to factors beyond massive's control. Everyone has god gear, potions are easy to come by, and mcmmo is all but useless in pvp, except for the minor advantage skull splitter and serrated strike give you. Obviously having more potions is part of it... but everyone starts out with the same number of potions. If you miss your pots or take more damage, then that's your fault. Not really sure what your point was there.
• Counters to traits are frankly just stupid. It again makes a rock paper scissors type feeling that nobody wants to see.
• The rest of your post is more or less just about re-adding flywater. This would be the single worst thing you could to with traits for the pvp community. What do you think will be accomplished by slowing people down with waterfly? The problem will be the exact same, people won't be able to hit each other unless they want to risk being hit. It allows for infinite running without the chance of being caught or dying.
• Your second post, again, talks about what would lead to a rock paper scissors type meta.
• McMMO potions being removed is a must. It doesn't add any strategy or whatever you think it does. It just means more potions you have to worry about. Pot management in vanilla minecraft is perfectly balanced on its own, you don't need 5-6 different kinds of potions to worry about.

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You're making an awful lot of assumptions.


There's no strategy behind picking modifiers that would directly influence how you play the game?

lol. k. I don't have anything else to say on that one because that's just.... lol.


No one said anything about any of this making PvP based on luck. That's not what a good trait system would do. It'd let PvPers of all ranks and folds customize their fighting styles and create new methods of fighting. That's not luck based at all. At least no more luck based than PvP is now. You still have every other factor you mentioned on top of that. It doesn't automatically make a new PvPer able to kill an "established PvPer", whatever that little snippet means.


What I think you mean is a player of greater "skill". Essentially the player with better gear, better cps, turn speed, and ping. A player of greater skill can lose as it is if any of those other factors are negatively stacked on their side in comparison to their opposition. This wouldn't change that. It'd just change mechanically how the fights play out.

It wouldn't be rock paper scissors if done correctly. That's why we had a meta when we did have the traits, because it was like that.

Oh, you have X Strike? Lemme take X resistance. Oh you have X trait? Lemme take X trait.

That's not what I'm proposing. That was the problem with the system in the first place.


Mcmmo is not useless in PvP. Every single micro interaction adds up in a fight. Especially one that contributes damage. To say otherwise is foolish, quite frankly.

It's not simply re-adding flywater, that was just an example of a trait I remember people not liking when they were removed. I was giving an example of how to remedy a problem I observed and recalled people specifically mentioning. That's no different than someone running with ender pearls. It's escape. If they see you coming any other way they can escape, regardless of the trait or not. Run indoors. Log. Ender pearl away, etc. Yes there's a timer on pearls, but that hasn't stopped me from being able to escape fights easily with a couple of them.

We already have the problem of people not being hit that don't want to risk being hit, it's called running inside and shutting the door.

Again, I disagree, that's your opinion on potions. I happen to feel as if they are not inherently a bad thing, yes it's more to manage, but it's more that is usable. I'm okay with managing my inventory space and deciding which potions to bring to a fight. The only problem I have with them is that newer players have a harder time accessing mcmmo potions and may face players that have easier access to them.

That's what grinding alchemy is for though.

 

[65jes89]

There's no strategy behind picking modifiers that would directly influence how you play the game?

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It's minecraft pvp... how are you going to add anything that involves any "strategy?" Because frankly you've given no examples, other than saying that's what should happen. So, no, as far as I can imagine from what you're describing, there's no strategy behind this. That aside, minecraft isn't exactly a strategy game.

create new methods of fighting.

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Like what? You want more crap like fireball? Because that was only ever used for trolling people who wouldn't come outside.

Essentially the player with better gear, better cps, turn speed, and ping.

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• Everyone can get god armor with in three hours of joining the server.
• Sevak gets like, what 6 cps I think?
• If you have issues with turn speed, turn up your mouse sensitivity? I think what you're trying to say there is aim, but considering that's what makes up most of minecraft pvp, I think that's a pretty good way to determine who should win a fight.
• Toku gets 150+ ms on a frequent basis, as do several other members of raptum. Sure it helps, but it's not stopping anyone.

It wouldn't be rock paper scissors if done correctly. That's why we had a meta when we did have the traits, because it was like that.

Oh, you have X Strike? Lemme take X resistance. Oh you have X trait? Lemme take X trait.

That's not what I'm proposing. That was the problem with the system in the first place.

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Then what are you proposing? Because as far as I can tell you just want some magical system created which is perfect for everyone. Give some actual examples other than saying what it won't be, please.

Mcmmo is not useless in PvP. Every single micro interaction adds up in a fight. Especially one that contributes damage. To say otherwise is foolish, quite frankly.

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This is just wrong. If you use an axe with no axe levels, yea. But you can use swords, and then you're only missing a bit of bleed damage, but since that stacks you just need to get it up to lasting a couple seconds and you're fine. I promise you I can logon to a brand new alt with 0 mcmmo and beat you. I'm more than willing to do it later this week if you don't believe me.

It's not simply re-adding flywater, that was just an example of a trait I remember people not liking when they were removed. I was giving an example of how to remedy a problem I observed and recalled people specifically mentioning. That's no different than someone running with ender pearls. It's escape. If they see you coming any other way they can escape, regardless of the trait or not. Run indoors. Log. Ender pearl away, etc. Yes there's a timer on pearls, but that hasn't stopped me from being able to escape fights easily with a couple of them.

We already have the problem of people not being hit that don't want to risk being hit, it's called running inside and shutting the door.

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Flywater and kiting are very different, actually. Kiting you can be 1.7'd, you can be pearl blocked, get stuck on blocks, bow boost, etc. Both people chasing have pearls. It's not the same as running in a door. If you run in a door, there's a pretty good chance that you'll be blocked from opening/closing the door, have someone run in with you, get stuck on the door frame, etc. Flywater you literally just step into water and you're invincible. Doesn't matter how fast or slow flywater is, it is and always will be overpowered and broken in pvp.

Again, I disagree, that's your opinion on potions. I happen to feel as if they are not inherently a bad thing, yes it's more to manage, but it's more that is usable. I'm okay with managing my inventory space and deciding which potions to bring to a fight. The only problem I have with them is that newer players have a harder time accessing mcmmo potions and may face players that have easier access to them.

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The rest of the pvp community disagrees with you. Deciding what potions to bring to a fight is irrelevant; everyone brings the same potions with a couple small variations that don't affect much of anything. So what if it's more that is usable? Vanilla potions work just fine for the rest of the pvp community, on and off of massive.

That's what grinding alchemy is for though.

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Massive doesn't need anymore grinding to be required for pvp than already is there.

 

[BenRekt]

The PvP we have now is potion based, gear based, skill based, and mcmmo based. This form of PvP feels very "vanilla" to me. It's flat. It's one sided with little to no variety in combat.

Click to shrink...

PvP on Massive is more about who has a better internet connection and how badly the tps is during the fight. If PvP was was more fluid, we wouldn't need things like McMMO and traits to spice it up. Vanilla now has multiple different weapons, elytra, ender pearls and tons of various potions. The main changes that would improve PvP (PvP itself, not the PvP community) is fixing hit registration and removing McMMO potions.

 

[Maytee]

Flywater and kiting are very different, actually. Kiting you can be 1.7'd, you can be pearl blocked, get stuck on blocks, bow boost, etc. Both people chasing have pearls. It's not the same as running in a door.

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I'd just like to add that kiting is extremely difficult nowadays. If you're not using, or you run out of, Absorption/Resistance after a fight health pots aren't going to keep you alive with the current damage output.

If you're fighting against a semi-aggressive player you're pretty much done-so, lol.