Archived Regarding The Factions News

[aprader1]

I made a comment on the original post, however I would like to go more in detail regarding it. I will give a link to the original post shortly. For now here is my comment:

Great post, however...
Switching the server to all 1.8 is a poor decision (factions I mean). Using plug ins that we already use such as via version, you can set what versions can log in. If you want to switch specifically for the pvp reason, there are plug ins that fix the awful pvp system. But going to 1.8 and not allowing versions after just hurts the server image more than you may think.

Second, hiring coders is not the worst idea, but have you thought of hiring people from Massive itself? Hiring people would not make them staff, it is based purely on coding ability. They could be unfit for staff but if they do their job correctly it shouldn't matter. There are a lot of smart people on Massive, I personally know a few. There is a difference between staffing and helping out with code (from what I've seen).

That is all I have for now, and I'm happy about the new changes to survival. The points I mentioned above need to be addressed, either with consideration, or the crushing hammer of facts and how stupid my points may be. Regardless, they should be addressed for the sake of all the player base.

And that's the end of the comment. A few things need to be addressed regarding both my comment and the original post.

-The supposed plan is poor. We have been hearing the "we are going to work on it" plan for years. That's the entire reason the post was created. The plan should be along the lines of "here is SPECIFICALLY what we are implementing, how we are going to do it, when (with an exact date) and why. The "oh we are gonna work harder" just isn't cutting it anymore.

-We have always prided ourself in having a unique factions experience. Maybe that's the problem. Marty mentioned in his original post that people like the more chaotic version of factions most servers use. Our factions world is the equivalent of an Xbox LAN party with your family. No fighting and hardcore raiding. This might be the issue. It is wise to take into account that maybe our original factions idea just isn't good enough. Times change, as Marty has said. It might mean more than we realize.

-How is this post different than posts in the past? We have seen this before from the staff that Factions is coming back, plus the release of empires. We had some sort of an improvement regarding MassiveMagic but then production just... stopped. The plug in failed and served no purpose beyond the initial "wow I can sit here for 3 hours to one shot anyone in pvp, that's pretty cool. Oh wait, NERF." Just saying Factions is coming back just isn't good enough. There are people just like me who are approaching 5+ years on massive. You guys did SOMETHING right to keep us here.

Sorry if this sounded attacking and harsh. I don't hate the staff and they have done numerous things for all of us. They work really hard and are some of the smartest people I know. But there are a lot of smart people that are not staff that don't voice their opinions. They should be heard too.
Thank you for reading and consider the points made above.

@MonMarty

 

[Wumpatron]

I'm just going to touch on your two comments briefly. This is my personal understanding so take what I'm saying as just a peer insight.

The cause to switch to 1.8 has to do with what competitor servers are doing. They already exist on a 1.8 platform as it is the preferred standard for PvP. It won't hurt the server image, but instead will encourage the player base of our competitors to consider Massive.
I see it as a scenario where we advertise ourselves as featuring 1.8 PvP. Many in the PvP community won't even consider to play on a server that isn't set to that standard due to it being "the best." I am unable to say if this is the approach Massive will be taking, but it is something to consider.

Hiring our coders comes down to the simplest terms, it works. There are plenty of capable and intelligent individuals on Massive, yes, but the best option is to hire in other coders as they are the ones who are making these plugins already and we know that they work. It's the difference between taking an option that might work and taking the one that does work. Hire the people who already do this and are advertised as being able to do this than taking a chance with people who we are unable to tell if they really are good at what they claim they are.

Now to take into account your critical assessment of the plan "failing"

The plan isn't failing. At this stage it is too early to say what exactly will be done. There are a number of ideas and theories which need to be discussed and planned. Granted that "we are working on it" isn't what people like to hear, but that is what we are dealing with. It is the only thing that can be stated with confidence as everything else is highly theoretical to the point that one thing could be said and end up being scrapped the next moment it is talked about. The plan cannot be failing as this is the first time that the plan is actually being addressed openly rather than swept under a rug and forgotten.

In short, steps are being done to ensure that the Factions aspect of our community is getting the attention and update that it deserves. To make claims that it is failing when it is barely out the door is disheartening for those who are currently working to make it happen. Be encouraging as cliché as that is. And most importantly, be patient, this is not an easy thing to accomplish.

 

[aprader1]

I'm just going to touch on your two comments briefly. This is my personal understanding so take what I'm saying as just a peer insight.

The cause to switch to 1.8 has to do with what competitor servers are doing. They already exist on a 1.8 platform as it is the preferred standard for PvP. It won't hurt the server image, but instead will encourage the player base of our competitors to consider Massive.
I see it as a scenario where we advertise ourselves as featuring 1.8 PvP. Many in the PvP community won't even consider to play on a server that isn't set to that standard due to it being "the best." I am unable to say if this is the approach Massive will be taking, but it is something to consider.

Hiring our coders comes down to the simplest terms, it works. There are plenty of capable and intelligent individuals on Massive, yes, but the best option is to hire in other coders as they are the ones who are making these plugins already and we know that they work. It's the difference between taking an option that might work and taking the one that does work. Hire the people who already do this and are advertised as being able to do this than taking a chance with people who we are unable to tell if they really are good at what they claim they are.

Now to take into account your critical assessment of the plan "failing"

The plan isn't failing. At this stage it is too early to say what exactly will be done. There are a number of ideas and theories which need to be discussed and planned. Granted that "we are working on it" isn't what people like to hear, but that is what we are dealing with. It is the only thing that can be stated with confidence as everything else is highly theoretical to the point that one thing could be said and end up being scrapped the next moment it is talked about. The plan cannot be failing as this is the first time that the plan is actually being addressed openly rather than swept under a rug and forgotten.

In short, steps are being done to ensure that the Factions aspect of our community is getting the attention and update that it deserves. To make claims that it is failing when it is barely out the door is disheartening for those who are currently working to make it happen. Be encouraging as cliché as that is. And most importantly, be patient, this is not an easy thing to accomplish.

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I believe you are referencing the word "failing" in regards to the current plan. In actuality when I mentioned "failing" I was talking specifically about the MassiveMagic plug in. I hope the plan works, and I think I will. I do not believe the plan is complete and ready to go as you have mentioned already, but in no way do I believe it is failing. As you've stated it is to soon to see if the plan will fail or not.

Edit: I did say the plan was "poor" however. And I stick with what I said. Any new plan without certainty is a poor plan. The next step should be to make the plan more stable and act upon it then.

 

[MonMarty]

Don't jump a gift shark in the mouth.

 

[Aespair]

A more bigger question is why are you complaining about one of the most active staff members dedicating his time to your part of the server. Seriously, this post is just 100% complaining and 0% pro-activity.

Just relax and be thankful.

 

[Viscar]

Switching the server to all 1.8 is a poor decision

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Fake news

Don't jump a gift shark in the mouth.

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Yeah same

 

[aprader1]

A more bigger question is why are you complaining about one of the most active staff members dedicating his time to your part of the server. Seriously, this post is just 100% complaining and 0% pro-activity.

Just relax and be thankful.

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I should inform you I havnt been in the Factions world in months. My "part of the server" is massive as a whole. And the entire point of the post was pro activity. I offer plenty of things that may need tweaking etc. I understand how it may be seen as complaining, but I assure you I am not. Is the community not allowed to offer honest suggestions without getting put down by staff?

 

[Aespair]

I should inform you I havnt been in the Factions world in months. My "part of the server" is massive as a whole. And the entire point of the post was pro activity. I offer plenty of things that may need tweaking etc. I understand how it may be seen as complaining, but I assure you I am not. Is the community not allowed to offer honest suggestions without getting put down by staff?

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Consider my statement more urging you to offer more solutions instead of complaining about what has been offered.

 

[aprader1]

Consider my statement more urging you to offer more solutions instead of complaining about what has been offered.

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At the current moment we don't have very many solutions. And besides, I did mention solutions such as getting the plan more organized with what exactly is going to happen. In which you responded everything is theoretical right now, and that's ok. But I did offer suggestions to the best of my ability.

 

[MonMarty]

Is the community not allowed to offer honest suggestions without getting put down by staff?

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You and reductio ad absurdum seem to have a really cosy relationship.

 

[aprader1]

You and reductio ad absurdum seem to have a really cosy relationship.

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No offense but this is my point exactly.

 

[Gumee]

No offense but this is my point exactly.

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You may not have intended this when you wrote your post, but your statement of arguement has come across as: "The most recent post isn't enough. The suggested changes look cancerous because of XYZ"

That's not constructive. You did offer some insight into maybe recruiting coders, but beyond that it feels like a bash. I don't think staff is dismissing your claims because they want to attack you, they're more focused on your agressive writing style, that they feel they need to adequately defend themselves and not cooperate to meet your concerns.

I understand your frusturation and I agree. We've been hearing "change is coming" for too long. We've been let down a lot. I personally am apprehensive of what will be done, and the effects those outlined changes will have. But it's too soon denounce them in the way you have, regardless if you intended to or not.

If you have your own solutions, I'm sure everyone would be eager to here them. But don't just spew "this is all so broken" without offering a clear way to address it, in a way that doesn't come off as a debate. Because frankly, we all know that things are broken. That's what MonMarty's post was outlining.

 

[MonMarty]

No offense but this is my point exactly.

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There's a big difference between being told that your reduction logic is flawed, and having your post content being censored. The former is precisely what Reductio ad Absurdum implies, taking one aspect (the fact that Aespair says you are complaining) and then subtracting a completely unbelievable conclusion (accusing the entire staff of putting down community opinions) just to make a point, i.e that unless Aespair agrees with you, he's just trying to falsely shut you down. (because... you are not the community and Aespair is not the staff, and saying that he interprets your words as complaining is.. not... censoring. At all).

That was a bit run-on sentence, but it illustrates my point. As the person who wrote the original post to which it refers I agree. 85% of your post can essentially be congested to "Nice post, but it's not good enough and here is what you should do to make it better, and if you don't well then you're just not good enough for us".

If you don't want it taken that way, change your wording. Semantics is everything in the English language. I can say "I'm going to shut the server down tomorrow" and then afterwards say "I didn't mean shut down, I meant put it on a lower machine rack!", but that doesn't change how my wording is interpreted by everyone, and how what I said afterwards is only seen as attempted band-aid not to look like an ass.

(neglecting the part where public whinge posts like these actually slow down my motivation because it poses the question to me: "Wtf am I doing this for if the people who I am doing it for just think it's not good enough anyway".)

 

[BenRekt]

I should inform you I havnt been in the Factions world in months.

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>Hasn't been in factions world in months

>Explains what is best for the factions worlds and why the idea of 1.8 is bad

You're complaining that '1.8 will have more negative effects than we realize' but then don't actually provide what those negative consequences are. The staff have provided good concrete reasons why a swap to 1.8 would be a good idea. If you want to show people why you're correct and why we should keep using the newest version, you gotta back it up dude.

Feels like you're bashing staff after they literally just told you their main focus is to help you. I don't think you mean to come off that way, but I think you should go through and re-read your posts because that's the vibe you're giving off.

 

[aprader1]

>Hasn't been in factions world in months

>Explains what is best for the factions worlds and why the idea of 1.8 is bad

You're complaining that '1.8 will have more negative effects than we realize' but then don't actually provide what those negative consequences are. The staff have provided good concrete reasons why a swap to 1.8 would be a good idea. If you want to show people why you're correct and why we should keep using the newest version, you gotta back it up dude.

Feels like you're bashing staff after they literally just told you their main focus is to help you. I don't think you mean to come off that way, but I think you should go through and re-read your posts because that's the vibe you're giving off.

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First, I said I havnt been on the MASSIVE factions world. Other servers; most server use 1.12 or a later version. I won't name names due to advertising but even a quick google of top factions servers use via version or 1.8 pvp but allow later versions.

As people have stated in the post Marty originally made, builders will have trouble building their 1.12 Block builds if those blocks don't exist.

I understand the vibe may be harsh, and that was not intentional. However, the urgency was intentional. My point is we can't follow a plan unless the plan is clearly laid out.

 

[Wumpatron]

First, I said I havnt been on the MASSIVE factions world. Other servers; most server use 1.12 or a later version. I won't name names due to advertising but even a quick google of top factions servers use via version or 1.8 pvp but allow later versions.

As people have stated in the post Marty originally made, builders will have trouble building their 1.12 Block builds if those blocks don't exist.

I understand the vibe may be harsh, and that was not intentional. However, the urgency was intentional. My point is we can't follow a plan unless the plan is clearly laid out.

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And that is a point that can be agreed on, laying out a plan. However, that plan cannot be made public quite yet as plans change and there isn't an exact plan just yet. This is the early stage of identifying where we are failing and once we have identified these issues, comparing them to what exists on the market to find solutions. Once that is determined, only then can changes be laid out. Like I said previously, be patient. If the plan was a pregnancy, this is the stage where you realize there's a baby in your womb.

 

[aprader1]

And that is a point that can be agreed on, laying out a plan. However, that plan cannot be made public quite yet as plans change and there isn't an exact plan just yet. This is the early stage of identifying where we are failing and once we have identified these issues, comparing them to what exists on the market to find solutions. Once that is determined, only then can changes be laid out. Like I said previously, be patient. If the plan was a pregnancy, this is the stage where you realize theirs a baby in your womb.

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I understand this, my point is to convey concerns to ideas that have actually been made public. Such as the idea of it being 1.8, or a full reset has even been suggested. I know these are not final but if an idea won't work, it shouldn't be pursued. I tried to make that sound as least mean as possible. I am overjoyed Factions is being worked on. My concern is we don't want to be having this conversation a year, 5 years or longer again. It should be a permanent solution, not a band aid for a short period.

 

[Lyee]

As people have stated in the post Marty originally made, builders will have trouble building their 1.12 Block builds if those blocks don't exist.

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As a builder myself, I'd have to say; There's next to no actually nice to use blocks that won't be accessible. Sure we'll lose glazed terracotta, concrete, endbrick, (as well as pupur, magma, and bone) but how much are these blocks actually used in Factions builds?

 

[Valto]

As a builder myself, I'd have to say; There's next to no actually nice to use blocks that won't be accessible. Sure we'll lose glazed terracotta, concrete, endbrick, (as well as pupur, magma, and bone) but how much are these blocks actually used in Factions builds?

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I was just using glazed terracotta and purpur pillars in one of my builds last week, so their unavailability would have definitely limited my design choices. Limiting building options will always be a negative for builders who want to do more than a stone castle or a wooden house.

 

[65jes89]

Switching the server to all 1.8 is a poor decision (factions I mean). Using plug ins that we already use such as via version, you can set what versions can log in. If you want to switch specifically for the pvp reason, there are plug ins that fix the awful pvp system. But going to 1.8 and not allowing versions after just hurts the server image more than you may think.

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I don't think you understand what is wrong with pvp. There are inherent issues with the 1.9-1.12 clients and some minecraft server code which make hit registration sucky, since the client doesn't have to worry quite as much about that anymore, since you should be having relatively long timings between each hit. There are no plugins that fix what's wrong with 1.9+, they just make it slightly less noticeable by removing the attack cooldown. And I have no idea why you think going to 1.8 would hurt the server image since literally every major pvp server is still in 1.7.10 lol.

Second, hiring coders is not the worst idea, but have you thought of hiring people from Massive itself? Hiring people would not make them staff, it is based purely on coding ability. They could be unfit for staff but if they do their job correctly it shouldn't matter. There are a lot of smart people on Massive, I personally know a few. There is a difference between staffing and helping out with code (from what I've seen).

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Okay what? If someone on massive wants to do it, just advertise/apply on spigot, depending on how recruitment of coders would be done. I mean frankly if all you're wanting to do is be paid, there's an extensive spigot community which hires freelance coders for standalone plugins, as well as more long-term coders, or just write your own plugin and sell it as a premium plugin. So not entirely sure what you're getting at here tbh. Sure there's some coders in massive's community, but why would you look for some in this community when there's a much larger community dedicated soley to what is needed?

The supposed plan is poor. We have been hearing the "we are going to work on it" plan for years. That's the entire reason the post was created. The plan should be along the lines of "here is SPECIFICALLY what we are implementing, how we are going to do it, when (with an exact date) and why. The "oh we are gonna work harder" just isn't cutting it anymore.

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Frankly I feel that this is a much more solid plan than those previously. Personally, I quite trust Marty's ability to get what he wants done when he focuses upon it, and I think at this point it is unreasonable to expect a solid timeline given the nature of some of the propositions.

We have always prided ourself in having a unique factions experience. Maybe that's the problem. Marty mentioned in his original post that people like the more chaotic version of factions most servers use. Our factions world is the equivalent of an Xbox LAN party with your family. No fighting and hardcore raiding. This might be the issue. It is wise to take into account that maybe our original factions idea just isn't good enough. Times change, as Marty has said. It might mean more than we realize.

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So what exactly is your suggestion here?.. You're barely pointint out the problem, let alone any potential solution.

We had some sort of an improvement regarding MassiveMagic but then production just... stopped. The plug in failed and served no purpose beyond the initial "wow I can sit here for 3 hours to one shot anyone in pvp, that's pretty cool. Oh wait, NERF."

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Pretty sure MassiveMagic going is due to Kaezir disappearing off the face of the earth as far as I'm aware, and is completely unrelated to anything else in the post.

I was just using glazed terracotta and purpur pillars in one of my builds last week, so their unavailability would have definitely limited my design choices. Limiting building options will always be a negative for builders who want to do more than a stone castle or a wooden house.

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It's hardly fair to claim that there were only stone castles and wooden houses prior to terracotta and purpur.

 

[BogeyBanshee]

I think that the 1.8 idea is more of a marketing strategy, which is what we should be thinking of when trying to increase faction activity. Tell me some other way to get people hooked that takes less than two paragraphs of our servers description, and doesn't ram the faction world full of plugins and mini games. It's a simple solution, you look at the label when you're looking for soups. The tomato soups are hard to judge from the cover. The mention of something they like,"Home-styled recipe" is a big enough thing to differentiate Massivecraft from other faction RPGs, like how "custom made biomes" won me over instantly. We would be in the category that PvPers look into, and that's a much more valuable change than the loss of purpur pillars.

P.S I do appreciate you analyzing the post. No sass intended.

 

[aprader1]

I don't think you understand what is wrong with pvp. There are inherent issues with the 1.9-1.12 clients and some minecraft server code which make hit registration sucky, since the client doesn't have to worry quite as much about that anymore, since you should be having relatively long timings between each hit. There are no plugins that fix what's wrong with 1.9+, they just make it slightly less noticeable by removing the attack cooldown. And I have no idea why you think going to 1.8 would hurt the server image since literally every major pvp server is still in 1.7.10 lol.


Okay what? If someone on massive wants to do it, just advertise/apply on spigot, depending on how recruitment of coders would be done. I mean frankly if all you're wanting to do is be paid, there's an extensive spigot community which hires freelance coders for standalone plugins, as well as more long-term coders, or just write your own plugin and sell it as a premium plugin. So not entirely sure what you're getting at here tbh. Sure there's some coders in massive's community, but why would you look for some in this community when there's a much larger community dedicated soley to what is needed?


Frankly I feel that this is a much more solid plan than those previously. Personally, I quite trust Marty's ability to get what he wants done when he focuses upon it, and I think at this point it is unreasonable to expect a solid timeline given the nature of some of the propositions.


So what exactly is your suggestion here?.. You're barely pointint out the problem, let alone any potential solution.


Pretty sure MassiveMagic going is due to Kaezir disappearing off the face of the earth as far as I'm aware, and is completely unrelated to anything else in the post.


It's hardly fair to claim that there were only stone castles and wooden houses prior to terracotta and purpur.

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I don't have time to comment on everything, but "every major server"? Most servers use via version. And if you want me to pm you a list I can