Player Freedom - Anti Restriction Testing

[MonMarty]

Before voting, please read the entire article.

MassiveCraft has always maintained a very strong "You decide the story of your own character" narrative, to such a degree that the rights over one's own character are taken away from others and invested solely in the players themselves. Excessive layers of character protections exist ranging from deaths to maiming to actions impacted, and while they are great at protecting the players and driving off any anxiety over being proverbially shot in the head with a crossbow by some bystander, they stifle player freedom on the opposite end of the spectrum, a lot. Normal characters with the lack of fear causes fear-rp to completely melt away. The vast majority of the players does not express a proper fear of the circumstances, which often results in laughable rp in the face of realistically certain demise, resorting to increasingly contrived means to avoid capture/death/maiming to keep a character in a stasis of perfection for all perpetuity.

We've seen examples where this became a problem, where one particularly much hated noble went on a hunting trip with a larger group, who in the heat of the moment cooked up a plan to assassinate said noble. When the confrontation came to head, the player behind the noble just said "No I don't agree to kill perms" and logged off, leaving 10+ players pulling out hairs over their entire ongoing narrative being ruined. They had all started emoting the process of the assassination, but suddenly had to stop the roleplay because the target simply said no, and then cancelled the event from completing because the mood had soured that they could no longer deal. There are more testimonials like this where players are enjoying the scene, the scenario, but one player (or more) simply put a halt to the system. And that's fair, rules are rules after all, and we've always put player's self protection on a high pedestal on Massive. But this fairness for everyone and protection for everyone does have a dark side, and that dark side is the extremely restrained player freedom on Massive.

Massive should always be a server that caters to all kinds of players, but while trying to do so, it has segmented itself into a position where player rights of the individual often end up becoming more important than the rights of the majority. Obviously this doesn't mean we should just get rid of these protections, but there are certainly lessons to be learned from other servers, how they deal with the concept of complete player anarchy, and how complete anarchy could be restrained to become controlled freedom, instead of rampant abuse of other players.

This thread aims to examine that concept, controlled freedom, and what we can do in a localized environment to experiment, flirt if you will, with the concept of player freedom. To create an environment where there will never be a moment where you stand still and ask a player OOC: "Can I do this?", or "Would you be okay with this?". To create an environment where all these things are taken for granted, and roleplay just continues as roleplay does, without the need to pause and ask, or without the risk of the player just saying no outright and you having to stop the roleplay. Yet, despite this test, we should also protect the ongoing rights of the players, the ones that specifically have grown comfortable with the environment Massive has offered, and not want to suffer at the hands of other players making decisions for themselves.

Luckily, we have just such an environment at the ready: The Sewers. In lore, the Sewers are a lawless place that is extremely dangerous given all the mutants and criminals that live there. A cut-throat world where death is a common norm and where the law abiding of the surface do not venture out of fear of being killed and disappearing into a dark corridor, never to be seen or heard of again by their friends and family. The sewers create the perfect environment to test this, it is below the streets so that this "world in and of itself" could have a different set of rules to the surface.

So what is the actual proposal? The proposal is this: We as Lore Staff do an experiment (meaning it is designed to last a limited time) during which we have a progression come in, in which an Arken produces some sort of spell or effect on the Sewers that creates an auto-resurrection spell the moment anyone dies. Then at the same time, we create a sub-section of rules on the sewers that removes all permission grants (kill-perms, maim-perms, bloodsucking-perms(doesn't actually exist but whatever, some players have observed it for courtesy sake), and whatever else you could come up with that isn't covered by disgusting or ERP rules). This experiment would cover ONLY the Sewers (not Old Town, Imperial Isle or New Town). This Experiment would last maybe somewhere between 1 to 2 months, to re-examine the results through another player poll at the end of it all, where we decide: Are we going to keep doing this for the sewers forever? Are we going to expand this to elsewhere? Was this a failure never to do again? We feel that, regardless of how an individual might feel about the proposal, having this kind of information at the end of such an experiment is invaluable. It helps us understand the need of the player base better by knowing what they like.

So, a quick summary for those who think Marty writes too much text:

The Proposal as it stands is a 1 or 2 month Experiment that affects the Sewers alone (the moment one steps out of the staircases, that is when one enters the sewers). Additionally:

• Kill perms are wavered by default
• Maim perms are wavered by default
• Any kind of perms that requires someone to ask "Can I do this" as long as it's not in conflict with anti-ERP / Disgusting RP rules is wavered by default in the sewers for the duration of this Experiment.
• A resurrection spell covers the entire Sewers. This spell would work by sapping the soul out of a person the moment they die (and then rapidly decaying their body so it disappears), after which the soul travels to a magical machine created by the Arken. This machine then resurrects the person who died 48/72 hours after death without any wounds or maims inflicted on them up to 24 hours prior to death. Additionally, their memory of the last 5 days is erased completely, do they cannot remember the days they floated around as a soul in this machine, nor the day of their death nor the 1/2 days prior to their death leading up to it.
• Lore Staff will amp up moderation of the Sewers to deal with power-gaming / god-rp / meta-gaming.
• Lore Staff will still during this experiment host protected events with Arken where another anti-combat spell on the event premise stops any form of fighting, meaning "safe" events can still be held in the Sewers.
• Character dragging - that is to say, mobbing someone on the surface and then dragging them into the sewers to perform the kill - would not be allowed. A player can indicate while being mobbed on the surface that they object to being dragged into a kill-zone, in which case the players are not allowed to make the kill in the sewers.

We have computed the following risks:

• Someone raised the concern of random kill-festing. While it is reasonably possible that some players will start experiencing a murder-boner and try to murder as many characters as possible, we suspect that this will (if it actually happens, which we hope it wont) only happen for the first few days while the illusion of death mattering wears off. So if death doesn't matter, why do this experiment at all you ask? Well, to some players on the server as well as coming to the server, it's not about the death mattering, it's about having the freedom of choice. To some players, that lack of freedom that exists right now is a deal-breaker for Massive, and they don't care if the death ends up being meaningless. It's like the freedom to take that kill is symbolic to them as player freedom.
• An increase of power-gaming to avoid death and maiming or inflict it. This is a realistic problem. We'll be dedicating more moderating power to ensure that situations that occur will be nipped in the bud pretty quickly. We are not concerned about this one.
• The Sewers might quickly die off and have no population at all anymore. We don't think this will actually happen. There's always been a core community on Massive that enjoys player anarchy, and who would embrace this experiment. Who knows, it might actually finally make the crime system "work" better, with death being a major door stopper turning good gang designs into pussy-footing tp avoid confrontation to keep their pristine characters alive. If the sewers do die off in terms of population (they tend to be pretty low right now with ~7 people at prime time) then that's a strong indicator that this kind of thing doesn't work on Massive and that we don't have to ever try it again. At least we'll know for sure then - instead of everyone just always making assumptions on behalf of 200~+ players.
• As with any system, it can be abused to perma-brig characters in a state of suspended death. We're not overly concerned about this one. We feel that if any player during this experiment indicates to Lore Staff in a ticket that they are being unfairly targeted, then Lore Staff can just investigate, and disagree or agree, forcing a ret-con on the death and telling the offending players to back off.
• Crime Rp will have no where to go anymore! Actually, largely due to the hard work put in by @MrsCripple & @SupremeCripple as well as some other Old Town pioneers like @pixYcandi & more, there is a lot of things to do in Old Town, in fact it tends to have more players than the sewers does. The Guards still only follow one patrol route, so crime RP can still happen in abundance in Old Town.

We have computed the following benefits:

• This whole experiment will give us valuable info .For years players have only speculated about this, but everyone always just makes assumptions. Whether this experiment succeeds or fails, it will give us invaluable information about the needs and tastes of the community.
• It might result in a sudden positive influx of sewer RP/Gang RP because all these characters designed to be super killers can actually thrive in what they were designed for. When we implemented the "resurrection duel ring" for the Kathar, feedback about this duel ring was really good, players enjoyed not having to restrain their character actions at all.
• It might create a sub-environment of the community attracting new players where players who are used to more personal freedom outside of Massive can thrive and enjoy themselves, integrating with the community in a natural way instead of being scared off with the culture of Massive.
• Players might experience it as a good way to explore certain character options that don't normally factor in, stuff that you can't normally enjoy like acting out a death scene, without it becoming permanent. It essentially expands the palette of available emotes and scenes that can be played out without the crush of permanency.
• It adds a bit of more high-fantasy back into the mixture that we have recently seen more pro-opinions of come back into play. It allows a venue for us to re-introduce Arken into Sewer roleplay for events and progression Rp.

Overall, I would like to add that personally, I am strongly in favor of this experiment. I am very skeptical myself, and I am always one of those people who believes this will not work on Massive, but I am also 100% convinced that in order to know for sure, we should all at least try. I am 100% convinced that Massive needs to try and innovate to find new and more ways to appeal to more players, and as such, as much as I would normally vote no on this proposal, I vote yes now, and ask players who are equally skeptical but not otherwise violently against the experiment to vote yes, and trust that I as owner of the server will try to always balance the sheets fairly to ensure no player who doesn't want this kind of roleplay is forced to work with it.

Whether this experiment succeeds shall be no indicator for extended permanency to the whole server. We need to re-assess the data at the end, hear player feedback, do a couple of polls, and even then, it will still never lead to permanent 100% implementation across every part of the city. We believe that the core of Massive's "Kill Perms" should always have at least one major area that is large enough to substantiate 100+ players worth of roleplay. We believe that, while this experiment might see an expansion to Massive's game play palette, it should never absorb Massive as a whole. We want to strike a balance, not overturn one thing for the other.

Regardless of how all of this pans out, there must always be a safe environment for people who don't want to deal with character death or maiming, even if temporary with a resurrection mechanic, to safely exist without being worried about this kind of deal. We will always harbor at least such an environment large enough for players to continue enjoying, regardless of how any of this experiment pans out.

Thank you for reading, and please consider supporting this experiment! It is important for us to ask player feedback on such a major decision, but we do hope that even those who are skeptical are willing to give the experiment a go for the sake of better informing ourselves and making the right informed decision.

 

[Ellimairy]

On one hand a very interesting idea, on the other not so much.
First of all, testing it out in the sewers is a perfect place. There are no guards, people are living there without much protection and it would make sense that murder is part of the day to day life there.

People who don't wish to be part of those circles, don't enter the sewers. Sophia for example, has never entered the sewers but a lot of nobility have. Ofcourse, it is where rp often happends, but heading in there for any person with atleast a tad of wealth would be insane and they should be attacked by the sewer dwellers, so a good idea to keep diffrent classes better seperated.

However, extending it eventually to the rest of the city, I am not a huge fan of it.
There are several reasons, because what will be logical? (Taking my char for the next few examples) Sophia is walking through the park in New town, there are npc guards patroling and I always emote her being followed by such, but does the attacker care about that. Does he see a potential threat in the npc guards if he can slash her throat by simply walking past and running? Does he see the wealth of the family which can hunt him down?
Furthermore, you are giving someone the option of removing somebody from the game. There are those who care little that their char died, but some may care more and will either stop playing for a period of time of become scared of playing.
Already a maim could do something, for if my Char would be maimed to such a point she wouldn't be able to present herself to court, she would not show and therefor end the character aswell.

If you send your char into war, you are aware of the risks. If you send your char into the sewers, you are aware of the risks, but if you are a ''normal'' member of the regalian community, I don't think you should loose those rights.

I believe it was during the Harhold Attack, that one of the dogs of harhold, Can't remember who it was, asked me oocly if it was okay to bite Sophia in her arm/face or something, I can't remember it perfectly anymore, either I refused, seeing I wouldn't allow my char to be maimed, knowing that her repuation in my char's eyes is linked with her looks and therefor pull her out of the noble scene. This was respected.

I believe if you extend this over the entire city, that you may loose players that had their char taken away from them.

Putting such decisions in the hands of others, is in my opinion dangerous.

 

[Conflee]

This is pretty much how I assumed the sewers worked when I was a wee new player. I had to figure everything out myself, and it was one of the many dumb rumors I heard OOC. Personally, sounds like worst case scenario it will be some fun dumb arken events that dont result in long lasting change. And on the flip side, if it does work, well then it works obviously so thats that. Im in favor.

 

[GoodDreamer]

I think this is a great way to test if this kind of RP environment can be supported. The resurrection system is solid and should assuage most of the fears about killing, and restricting it to the sewers prevents total anarchy on the server. There are, however, some things that I wouldn't want to see in the future or in the final product.

Making the Resurrection Zone the entire Sewers works great for the test, but shouldn't be the case in the future. I'm sure the plan is to change how large this zone is in the future but I just want to voice my opinion here. The Resurrection Zone should stay, but it should shrink and become a much smaller part of the sewers. The No-Perms-Required Zone should remain over the entire Sewers. There should be a place where death remains meaningful, because resurrection-rp doesn't lead to fear-rp any more than the current system does.

If fear-rp is one of the goals here, then a mandatory rolling system should be put into place. The killer should have to make a roll, and if they roll above/below a certain number, the friends of the dead character have the opportunity to find out about the killer via NPCs (or something else). Giving perms means that the roll becomes unnecessary (meaning that a clean getaway is only guaranteed if you got permission beforehand). This rolling system would make would-be future Regalian Rippers aware that their actions have consequences that could very easily come back to haunt them, making people less willing to go out on murder-sprees with their +40 Longbow Ailor.

Another suggestion for the future is that only approved characters that have been played for X amount of time can kill other characters without permission in the sewers (if the Resurrection Zone goes away/is shrunk). This prevents people from making characters for the sole purpose of killing other characters, without actually emotionally investing in their own character.

Anyhow, I'm all for this experiment. I hope the testing goes well!

 

[AngelWho2013]

Personally I'd like to explore the possibility of erp freedom too.

 

[MonMarty]

I believe if you extend this over the entire city, that you may loose players that had their char taken away from them.

Putting such decisions in the hands of others, is in my opinion dangerous.

Click to shrink...

All of what you wrote was redundant, sorry. My post already indicated that even if the test was successful that it would never be extended over the entire city. There's no reason to be concerned.

 

[ScaledSupremacy]

I totally agree with this experiment. From my experience in the crime rp community, and combat rp whatever, I'm pretty certain that it's rare for people to actually kill or maim, because they want to get rid of that character (Unless it was part of some longer narrative of course) Most of the time, like you said in the post, the kill is more for the satisfaction of the victory. After all, death and kills have always been very traditional elements of gaming as a whole.

 

[DeusVidet]

As a refugee from a certain server which must not be named, which had this sort of system at it's core, I'd like to give a little bit of opinion on the matter.

As far as resurrection goes, this will not solve your fear of death problem should it be implemented permanently. Losing a few days of memory isn't much of a consequence, and events from that time period can usually be easily learned from roleplay, which makes the entire memory loss period irrelevant. Additionally, from personal experience in my previous Hellscape server, people would (rarely, but it still happened) take advantage of the guaranteed resurrection to do something drastic, that they would not normally do due to the high chance of death. As an example, breaking into a base to maim/kill/steal before being dog piled by the people of base and killed, only to then resurrect later. I even saw people emote their own death, despite death not being what the attacker intended. (Going to knock someone out, only for them to emote that the blow killed them, so that they can be resurrected.)

Overall, you're playing a dangerous game here. You have a lot of intricacies to iron out. If this is fully implemented later, I would suggest a forced roll system with a chance to be resurrected fully healed, resurrected with maims, or permanently killed. This will hopefully add some level of fear of death, and avoid abuse of the resurrection system.

 

[weatherbyrd]

As @GoodDreamer mentioned earlier, I love this idea. I also agree with the idea that there should be a neutral ground, which will likely be the tavern, so people cant just stab willy nilly in neutral ground. However, I think that there should be some repurcussions for death. Nothing serious, but enough that people dont go and do revival roleplay. Perhaps something physical, like the scar of the blow that caused the death to remain, or lethargy 2 real life days so that a character cant just end up being revived, and jumping at the chance for veangeance or so that groups dont replenish their numbers instantly afterwards.

 

[Magivore]

While I think this experiment as a whole might be fun to do, why have the body disintegrate after the individual is killed? The Defiler possession crowd might have a perfect opportunity to suddenly begin doing things such as lead or produce a gang other than tote around bone boys silently going "grr" because now they have an in-character access and 'economy' for bones or to hire someone else to kill someone for their bones while having their soft respawn from golem death to character link separation. I haven't seen a Defiler in such a long time that this could be a good two-for-one deal. Kathar can also use this as another opportunity to bolster bone supply without the need to hunt so hard for non-kill bones or killing a cat off-screen. Not only that, but you can definitely put either some fear or determination in a character who comes by a gang base planning a raid only to see that they've already lost a couple times in the past or that their friends tried the same thing to no avail, but they don't know where they failed. Or you could even have a brief murder mystery/"look-for-the-loot" quests! "Shit, I lost all my stuff and I know I died somewhere, now I need someone to help me get my body back from possibly x because I had y on me which is of great importance to me."

A minor detail, but still, it might be a clever addition. Otherwise, I'm all for it! The worst that can happen is the sewers go bare for a month or two while Old Town fills up, which isn't always unheard of considering how often Crime likes to fluctuate in activity vs. inactivity.

 

[SnashuuPomaymay]

I quite like this idea! Playing with the subject of a character suffering memory loss and confusion after being resurrected is interesting in and with itself, and I can see a lot of neat arcs and storylines being pulled out of this. And to top it off, the fact that this will be a monitored test makes it feel like it'll be quite a fun and safe experiment to not only observe, but be involved in! I hope it works out.

 

[Winterless]

Resurrection good

I rarely use my char cause I'm scared I'm just gonna get killed and that's the end of it

 

[MonMarty]

A minor detail, but still, it might be a clever addition.

Click to shrink...

I think I want to keep it simple early on, we can worry about layered complexities after the pure experiment of itself is complete.

Overall, you're playing a dangerous game here. You have a lot of intricacies to iron out.

Click to shrink...

I use source material from the same sourcematerial you're pulling. I'm confident I have the people with me that know the pitfalls, and global implementation will never be a thing. We cannot solve the Howlester Conundrum:

Howlester Conundrum: How do you stop a player who hasn't been on the server for months pulling 20 dudes on the server and busting down the door of the Howlester estate to killfest everyone inside during a tea party when there is reasonably no narrative reason for them to do so, aside from just settling spite OOC through a petty way, without causing each and every kill attempt to be flagged off as approved by Lore Staff and piling onto our work load.
​

As long as that central conundrum isn't solved, global implementation cannot commence. We've spent months thinking about that central question, and I'm pretty confident that the ethics are opposing, there simply is no way to create a nice compromise medium without requiring excessive amounts of moderating work on our end, so it's not realistic to implement. The best solution is to create two separate atmospheres and let them live separately for players to choose.

 

[Lizmun]

Hi yes please make it so people's corpses stick around even if only for a short while. I play a mage who has at least one spell that requires the presence of corpses (And I think there is at least 1 other mage with a necromancer spell ) who happens to also to be a defiler. Unless there is a stipulation that NPC characters remain dead when killed, corpses will all but disappear in the sewers. If there are no more corpses, I can't really use my spell that requires them, nor can I get any more bones to use for bone golems. As Magivore also mentioned, Kathar will be kinda locked out of their bone supply if nobody leaves anything behind when they die.

It would also suck if you kill somebody all the loot goes away. Kinda kills the corpse - robber and grave thief vibe, you know?

Other than concern for the 'deals with dead things' niche I and a few others have taken up might go away, I quite like this update!

 

[Mordew]

Using other server's similar revival model as an example, consequence-free 'death means nothing' RP leads to everyone being a serial killer and no-one caring. It leads to edgies folding their arms and smirking saying "huh you think I'm scared of you? I'll just get revived. I've died like nine times according to my friends. I'm immortal, kid." and it leads to every fight escalating insanely, where name-calling arguments end in meaningless genocides of people that're too attached to their characters to accept death just coming back. Whilst a lot of people on either server will argue the playerbases of MassiveCraft and other servers are incredibly different, which they are, I think given the same circumstances people who want to be hug-boxy and avoid consequence always will given the opportunity.

The current system that disrupts the flow of RP is problematic, but the system suggested to replace it - where killing someone becomes entirely meaningless and that individual can return with amnesia and no other detriment - is equally problematic. Putting yourself in the shoes of your character:

>X finds out a secret about you, your house, your group etc.
>X threatens to tell people over the course of a few days.
>You hire Y to assassinate X for you.
>X dies and comes back. They don't remember being killed, but it was long enough ago that they learnt your secret for them to keep the relevant memory.
>X continues to spread secrets about you and ruin your life, leaving you with absolutely no means of stopping them because they're apparently immortal now.

That's just one scenario I've seen crop up elsewhere and could see surfacing on this server. The summary of my argument is 'go hard or go home', I guess. If roleplay is going to flow 'freely' where OOC doesn't dictate IC actions, you can't give people loopholes like resurrection to hide behind.

I'd opt for resurrection as a concept to be written out of this entirely, or alternatively for certain groups to be given their own unique paths to resurrect a dead person, requiring RP progression to occur in the absence of a character and their revival being dependant other characters' actions.

For instance Alchemists might co-operate to make use of a painstakingly lengthy and reagent-expensive process to reanimate a body, Parlour Mages might gather resources and convene for a ritual to pull back a soul through a dead magician's phade gauntlet, Vampires might collect a massive blood sacrifice to nourish a lifeless corpse or Silven might seek out an Arken and make pacts in exchange for a revival. A system that would not only leave characters dead for long enough to be impactful, but would also require the involvement of multiple other characters and create meaningful roleplay. I also feel you could add a time-gate to this (IE 'a character can not be revived once dead for more than a month') to allow for roleplay on the flip-side; giving the killer the opportunity to try and stop their victim from being revived, creating more narrative conflict, 'is it worth putting ourselves at risk to bring back X?'.

@MonMarty if any of that sounds reasonable could you please add a third poll option?

 

[Conflee]

You could possibly make it so that weapons larger than a dagger have to be acquired ICly, through actual RP, as a base rule. And from there the rest falls in place- Take the Howlester Conundrum, you lose all your weaponry, gear, etc that you used to presumably over power any armed resistance you met in the estate, and when the guards inevitably show up before you finish, because you raided an estate and that takes time, your whole group dies and loses the kit. All their possessions, weapons, armor, etc gone.

Might not be enough to sway off randoms coming in fully, but idk maybe a route to look into or explore similar ways off it.

 

[MonMarty]

@MonMarty if any of that sounds reasonable could you please add a third poll option?

Click to shrink...

For the sake of an experiment to poll player tastes, developing a cumbersome and taxing management system that requires staff intervention and maintenance is counter intuitive, that is the whole beauty of doing an experiment that is lightweight, so don't "corrupt" the data with convoluted circumstances. I think if the experiment is over, such a discussion could be tabled, but for the sake of keeping things simple, I'm going to not commit to that.

 

[Gwyndo]

Yo like my character Ssil is undead. If someone decided to nuke her, she'll still come back right?

I'm guessing since it's more of an IC justification to allowing the experiment, that Undead would be affected by the proposed machine, right? RIGHT?!

 

[IGutTheMidasTuch]

*avoids the sewers for two months*

 

[MyCatBubbles]

Resurrection good

I rarely use my char cause I'm scared I'm just gonna get killed and that's the end of it

Click to shrink...

lets rp duel once our chars find out people just start magically coming back after being killed

 

[Film_Noir]

My fear is of this system eventually being implemented in Old Town. Some nobles have estates there, while the majority don't. I don't want our family to have to go through an excess of "raids while we're having meetings" and "deaths" just because of the fluke of circumstances that we're located in one particular part of Regalia while others aren't. The crime system, crime rp and magical resurrection rp are not really things that I'm interested in.

 

[Mordew]

For the sake of an experiment to poll player tastes, developing a cumbersome and taxing management system that requires staff intervention and maintenance is counter intuitive, that is the whole beauty of doing an experiment that is lightweight, so don't "corrupt" the data with convoluted circumstances. I think if the experiment is over, such a discussion could be tabled, but for the sake of keeping things simple, I'm going to not commit to that.

Click to shrink...

fair enough.

 

[Conflee]

My fear is of this system eventually being implemented in Old Town. Some nobles have estates there, while the majority don't. I don't want our family to have to go through an excess of "raids while we're having meetings" and "deaths" just because of the fluke of circumstances that we're located in one particular part of Regalia while others aren't. The crime system, crime rp and magical resurrection rp are not really things that I'm interested in.

Click to shrink...

If it becomes a standard thing there will probably be rules added to help stuff like that, or there should be.

As an example: If your group instigates against an event your rights to claim lives for the duration is lost. So people cant just storm a party someone is hosting. Or a rule that specifically says you can't just raid an estate etc.

 

[Faunfire]

My main concern is that this is what other servers do, and there's no actual limit on what this is. When you take away someone's ability to say no to kill or maim perms, people become reclusive ooc and only stuck with people they know are "safe" and won't hurt them. I know that this is only going to be going on in the sewers, and that many players do want this to happen, but being on the other side and having seen this method applied, it makes rp very difficult and weird. This is just my saying so, so don't pay it much attention. That's just what I think anyways.

 

[Conflee]

My main concern is that this is what other servers do, and there's no actual limit on what this is. When you take away someone's ability to say no to kill or maim perms, people become reclusive ooc and only stuck with people they know are "safe" and won't hurt them. I know that this is only going to be going on in the sewers, and that many players do want this to happen, but being on the other side and having seen this method applied, it makes rp very difficult and weird. This is just my saying so, so don't pay it much attention. That's just what I think anyways.

Click to shrink...

Isnt Other Server TM also in a stranglehold where PVPers run RP more or less? That probably didn't help the development or application of the concept.