Archived Noble System Discussion

[Boss_of_Runes]

This might be a bit too specific and perhaps ranty, but I feel this is the best place I would be able to essentially rant. I of course didn't wish to send a ticket that was three paragraphs long, lol.


I have been feeling weird for the past few weeks about the Noble System and the players within. It has mostly been the in-fighting, the lack of communication between players and staff, possible spite due to fictional characters, and - I think worst of all-the lack of fun and enjoyment forming a story with these well-written characters.


The way the Noble System is expressed and organized is- unorganized to say the least. The constant updates do make it hard to follow along with what is considered important or lore-friendly (and I mean this for both the lore itself and the System, but that's another situation entirely). If there is a sort of bug-fix-style update system like how one might see when opening up their game would be a great way of showing these changes. Technically the Discords are for that, but those can also feel muddled and too spread out. Having these posts in the forums in a cleaner style might be better. This also includes the Title system. The post-Vampire Event title changes have been confusing several people- as Marty had to clarify on the night I write this. I am confused why this was not clarified when first explained? Not everyone is experienced with Noble terminology, as we are in a time of new families and faces. I'd love for the path of information to be cleaned up somehow, but perhaps that's just me not getting technology, lol.


Now for the emotion of roleplaying; it has felt as if actual real-world biases have been forming because of a fictional game. My friends have been ignored/lacking communication by staff when asking important, time-sensitive questions or meetings, and it's been disheartening to see. We've seen people answering questions unclearly (look back to when I spoke about how titles currently function) and as someone that hates repeating myself, asking the same few questions to get as clear of an answer as possible has felt difficult. I have had to be a middle-man between several people because they, for some reason, haven't actually spoken to each other properly through Discord or any other application. However, that is not my business, and I will not go any further. However, it does sometimes feel that I, and several others, are not able to develop our Houses the same way as those already friendly and buddy-buddy with staff.


Finally, about the "fictional game" situation; that is what Massive is. I left for several years because of how seriously people took this game. And sometimes it was incredibly amazing because we've been able to form a story together and history within our computers. People have spent 10 years on this server, spending their time taking care of an amazing garden of imagination. However, it is still a game, and it should not be treated as real-life (unless you're being paid obviously). It is not a place for people- not characters, the real people sitting and playing- to treat each other badly for literal block people. I greatly care for my characters, but I've found it hilarious watching people be afraid to send letters and DM's about a meeting. In my head I think "it's a game, no one is actually going to explode" but I know some people might actually take whatever is being said personally. We shouldn't have to hurt each other like this.



TLDR; Make Noble System updates cleaner, don't be an a**hole to someone for not being besties with staff and trying to get their footing and be good to each other, because we're all some people enjoying a video game in the end.

 

[Winterless]

Replying to this as an outsider on the World System

It is not a place for people- not characters, the real people sitting and playing- to treat each other badly for literal block people

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This is something I think the DMs are very aware of, and afaik was cited as a reason for the shift away from inner-nobility conflict and the archipelago land game towards colonising. It'll be a while until that culture change is felt though so this is a fair point

Marty had to clarify on the night I write this. I am confused why this was not clarified when first explained?

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The art of having people understand complicated systems when you explain it to them is never one that you're going to get right on the first try. There are entire academic fields dedicated to that purpose, and id you struggle to understand something, you should make it clear immediately to DMs.

However, it does sometimes feel that I, and several others, are not able to develop our Houses the same way as those already friendly and buddy-buddy with staff.

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The noble system is managed now afaik solely by marty. The easiest way to abstract this question out is to ask yourself the simple question(s):
1. What does marty have to gain by explicitly targetting your friends with a lack of information about the system?
2. If you were in the position of this alternate universe corrupt marty, why would you waste time with cleverly weaving a campaign of disinformation/confusion to the noble houses in the system of people you don't like, instead of just outright denying their noble application in the first place?

It's a good general rule of life that nobody cares about you as much as you care about yourself (I mean this in the nicest way possible, and I'm not implying that nobody cares about you), and I think what's going on here is that you've developed a feedback loop of deciding at some point that staff are disinterested in answering your questions, and so you see it fit to ask less questions, which in turn makes you believe more and more that staff don't care. We've all been in that position, trust me.

I think you'll see a culture shift as the new system comes in fully and the toxic people in nobility (if any) adjust to a system that seems more geared around cooperation and the lesser emotional impact of fighting over territories half a world away instead of their backyard.

Also as a bit of cheeky winterless advice on the side, outright accusing staff of favouritism and bias does not help you in the long run in roleplay, because it will just create cause for people to side-eye you when you want to roleplay with them. Such things are meant for staff reports, not public forum threads

Typed in the shower, sorry for any weird explanations x

 

[Audianna]

Gonna reply kinda sloppily, im on my phone and cant really do the reply by each section well and my grammer/typing will be significantly worse but that is line right for me.

I'll be replying with the sense of I knoe a bit more of what you are trying to say, as a friend. And someone who has/or has seen thr boat you are in.

To start with the ic and ooc spite, I have seen and experienced it a lot. In my personal opinion theres not really much of a way to control that. Someone will always find a reason to dislike a character, more than not most characters have major flaws of some kind. And most people do have a connection with their character to the point if you do anything to said character they tale it personally. Again, nothing anyone can really do about that. I've been the person before who cared too much about their character and a year ago or so I let my ooc emotions influence roleplay. I will say both of those playing fields make roleplaying harder, not as fun. I have also been the person to be targetted ic for ooc hate and ooc for ic hate. It does feel shitty. Theres nothing anyone can do about it because that person doing such has to move away from it for anything to be done. Personally, I stopped caring as much for my characters. I stopped thinking from "what would I do?" As it makes it more personal cersion of you than a character- to "what would my character do?" Imo i like roleplaying like this a lot better and I am glad i started to do that, but that is probably delving too deep into one section of- multiple sections.

I can understand feeling little to no communication with staff, i've been there but its probably not as crystal clear as you think. I don't remember WHO told me but when they did it lowkey clicked in my head- not every staff member has the answer to everything, and they/you might have to wait for someone who understands and knows what your asking to answer. Theres also like- i would say 100-200 people on massive and I would say thats a pretty big community. Said ticket staff member might be busy or helping someone else already. Its frustrating when its time sensative, it really is. I have made a ticket before asking on a culture, it was to say a large ticket. A lot of questions. It takes time to reply to tickets like that, and there might be a line of them. Its frustrating to wait and feel anxious but, once again, theres nothing anyone could really do about it. Theres nothing to blame for it.

I can heavily understand the noble system portion of it, I do agree that everything gets updated a lot and it seems confusing as players. The most we can do to understand is to continously re-ask or re phrase if we don't understand. I remember playing violetta de piedmont for the first few month in nobility, i remember making a few -few tickets out of being scared to. So i heavily relied on friends who did understand [god sends unironically]. I think the best way to go about it is continously asking. Its kind of like a game, it needs constant updates/balances. Thing about any online game, valorant, overwatch, stardew valley even, they all need updates and chabges to them. But yes, i see and understand where you come from. Its frustrating to finally get the old system and then theres a new one right around the corner.

I already went into the ic and ooc fields but I will dip my hand once more. Unless the player themselves is willing to let go of the overly personal attachment to the character, it will be harder to write a story with them. If they actively go after you ooc, i would not persue a story build with them.

But overall, this is more of a discussion. And I am in no way or shape trying to go after you if that is what this is comming off as. I can completely agree but for most parts theres nothing anything can be done. It is easier to complain and essentially 'wawawa' on a situation. I do it, i do it a lot. There are times I have that I shouldn't and i'll admit it. I think the best course if action is to - just try, asking more questions.

I don't know how to end this so, i'll try to leave on a p positive note. The noble system is fun, but it is hard and im sure after a but of trying to figure it out it'll be fun again :>

 

[Audianna]

Holy shit i did not mean to send a wall of paragraphs o7 im so sorry

 

[AtticCat]

I'd like to add also that the system is currently being revamped and reworked at the moment. I know one of your complaints was about things constantly changing and being confusing, but change is what keeps people interested and engaged since it shakes things up a bit, as well as the climate of the server needs to be followed.

An example of the climate change is the noble system used to be that you could become titled simply by talking a lot, then this was met by too many people since the server was so active and it was pointed out that just because you're active doesn't mean that you're doing anything important, so instead the system has changed that you need to have visible effect on the world, rather than just existing, such as with event hosting. (The titling up from lines was also heavily exploited by players that would just spam short lines to up their numbers.)

*I'd like to include that this change personally effected me! I had a noble who was titled via my activity, but she wasn't really anything important other than just a socialite and a shitty guard, so this isn't bias against the old system or something. The current one is way more fair and better in general.
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Marty is currently reworking everything and adding detailed guides for the entire noble system, which will likely help out your problems. As Winterless said above, he's the only one really working on the system at the moment, so he'll need a little bit of time to finish it up. I recommend just being patient and if you have any specific issues, make a ticket about them or ask in World System DMs since I know you're in there. If you do the latter, someone is bound to answer, even if it's not MonMarty, since all the players in there are know-it-alls (including myself lmfao).

 

[Boss_of_Runes]

I'd like to add also .

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I'm glad to know it's being revamped a bit more properly, and I hope he/others involved will be able to show updates on this new system they're working on. I'd love to give critique on or, or see others give their own opinion on what the easiest path of information would be for everyone. Constructive criticism is always important to this kind of thing, and I hope he's willing to show others instead of dropping lore bombs every other day (that might sound harsh, that's just the best way to describe it when it comes to Discord lore updates, lol)

And the reason I posted this long rant was more because I felt I'd be screaming into a void anywhere else, and it helps me destress, lol. I didn't wanna be a bother and make a ticket and I was worried I'd sound like an ass in the DMS, and that was why I'd asked about a survey since I know we have those occasions and I'd love to hopefully continue my rants with full brain power and not at 4am :,)

 

[Boss_of_Runes]

I'm sorry I'm a sad little gen Z that doesn't get how forums work, I was too young to know how to use them, trying my best ;A;

 

[MonMarty]

Going to try and reply as concisely as possible.

I have been feeling weird for the past few weeks about the Noble System-

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• There has been no Noble System, and you are currently not operating "in" it. The System is on mid season transition. You aren't "in" the system because the system hasn't even started yet save for a few titles being handed out to bridge the gap with the previous season. Nobles have Estates and Titles, and some government activity is happening, but no Noble Conflict has started yet besides ideological arguing.

The way the Noble System is expressed and organized is- unorganized-

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• What you are seeing is parts of the system being released until the official start. There is no System.
• Make use of System Manuals here with the Master Thread recording all Manuals and what they do.
• The World-System-Dms is a quick announcement channel, not an information repository.
• Your Family Leader should have told you all this. Discord is not a repo but a communication tool.

Now for the emotion of roleplaying-

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• I have answered every single Noble related ticket, some may have waited a while due to available hours.
• You have gotten all of your 4 Tickets answered, only 1 recently, and you got it answered the same day.
• Your Family OOC Leader sent in 2 tickets concerning Nobility, and got all of them answered.
• You ask questions in the Noble-Dm chat without @tag. I can't read all messages in all 50 channels.
• Please provide evidence of Staff neglect of players in need of help, please help me see.
• I can correct neglectful staff, but it is unfair that you make an accusation as if it is fact without evidence.

Finally, about the "fictional game" situation; that is what Massive is-

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• OOC toxicity where I am aware of it, is being dealt with. This is the system update reason.
• Fear for Dm's and letters is not based out of toxicity but player anxiety. Everyone has Anxiety.
• Please quantify who is being hurt. We have a player report section. You can send in tickets.
• I think it is unfair that you make an accusation of a toxic player base without quantifying it as fact.

Please, if you're going to levy broad accusations to players and staff, quantify how you came to those conclusions. There is already enough unquantified gossip that leads to bad feelings between players and between players and staff. A thread making accusations without evidence to back them up does not help. Otherwise, if you have questions, please use the Ticket bot, that is what it is used for.

 

[Boss_of_Runes]

Sorry if I formatted this wrong, I'm bad at making replies ;-;

The art of having people understand complicated systems when you explain it to them is never one that you're going to get right on the first try. There are entire academic fields dedicated to that purpose, and id you struggle to understand something, you should make it clear immediately to DMs.

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Maybe it's because I'd imagine they would have a better system after several years of trying to make it cleaner, but I know that they're trying to make it easier for people. But I'd like it if that was made clearer instead of just saying "hey so we redid this whole thing, have a good day". It's jarring and sometimes these things are very important. This is mostly focused on the lore itself, which is something I barely understand really, but it can also be about the Noble System, like the Post-Vamp Event system changes.

1. What does marty have to gain by explicitly targetting your friends with a lack of information about the system?

2. If you were in the position of this alternate universe corrupt marty, why would you waste time with cleverly weaving a campaign of disinformation/confusion to the noble houses in the system of people you don't like, instead of just outright denying their noble application in the first place?

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Obviously viewing a random person on the internet like a supervillain is silly, lol. And I might have been too harsh, probably because, of course, they're our leader and control basically everything. However when you open your Noble House Application with "When applying you understand that Nobility is not always going to be a fun system. The system will try to work with you, but you should always expect players to work against you," it sounds as if you should expect PLAYERS to dislike you. That is a problem, and a spark to cause in-fighting. "This is what is supposed to happen, get over it."


I view this as more like an MMO like WoW. With how WoW is laid out right at the start (a war against two opposing factions), it essentially creates people wanting to act as if they're better than each other because they're on the opposing sides. There's a Youtuber that explained it a lot better than I could but I can't find the quote from him and it's bothering me, lol. But generally, I mean that having people excited to be a part of something bigger and letting them know beforehand that people might go behind your back right at the start doesn't lead to the most positive feelings. Maybe I'm reading it too literally, but that's how it could seem.

Typed in the shower, sorry for any weird explanations x

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Don't worry, I wrote mine at 3-4am with barely any brainpower left, lol.

 

[Boss_of_Runes]

Going to try and reply as concisely as possible.

• There has been no Noble System, and you are currently not operating "in" it. The System is

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I say "Noble System" more describing the grouping of people acting as Nobles, having effects on the world in political ways, and those with titles. It's just the easiest way to describe it and have people understand what group I'm talking about.

• Your Family Leader should have told you all this. Discord is not a repo but a communication tool.

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She has also been confused about things, as we've discussed for several days in our Family chat. We had a plan for some things we wished to do, but due to recent clarifications on how titles work (specifically for Barons/Vassals) those plans were very quickly dashed away. I don't usually check the forums for what the Wiki should have. Because the Wiki is where we should be getting our information and updates. When it comes to that, that's what I meant about a Bug Report style of updating, and have it apply to the Wiki or perhaps a new chat in the Discord. But I don't know how that all works, and I won't pretend that I do.

I have answered every single Noble-related ticket, some may have waited a while due to available hours.

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I'm not talking about ticketing. I actually think it's gotten much better compared to before when it was through the Minecraft chats. I don't add tags because I'm asking really anyone that can answer. Most of the people there know much better than I do, and I wish for their advice.

I have not personally been dealing with really any issues with staff. It is other people I'm friends with that have, and I am not those people. If you think I'm lying about such, even though I really don't have a reason to, then that's how it is. I'm not comfortable giving people's private messages or anything of the sort.

OOC toxicity where I am aware of it, is being dealt with. This is the system update reason.

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I've been told the opposite. But because it is literally not my job to be a little messenger for other people's personal issues, I did not give specifics. And I do not wish to be a prick and give personal stories like it's drama, that is something I hate to the highest degree on any web platform. When they choose to speak, they can speak for themselves.

Please, if you're going to levy broad accusations to players and staff, quantify how you came to those conclusions.

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This was not meant to be "broad accusations", this was meant to show my view in a (hopefully) constructive way because I have not felt I was able to. I'd say something I'd think was a problem and it would be followed with "yes, but". I have every right to give criticism, and perhaps I may not have worded it well. I wrote it very late at night/early in the morning, and was more just frustrated and wanting to scream (in a metaphorical sense). This didn't seem like something for a ticket, and I'm more than sure you don't want a 3 paragraph essay on what might be good or bad. The reason I mentioned you specifically was because you are in charge, you're the one leading this amazing group of writers, musicians, and artists. And I want things to be the best they can be.


Sorry if you don't consider this good enough, but I just wish to say something, even if it's not substantial.

 

[FutureTeller]

As someone who occasionally wakes up to those "oh shit I wrote this at 3am and could have done it better." messages themselves, I'd recommend that perhaps you could vent to a friend you trust next time, full length and everything.

Then re-read it a day later when you're more awake and then piece together a proper proposal post on the forums. Maybe get some input from friends and associates too, etc. before putting it out there. Might save you an explanation or two.

Though take my words with a grain of salt, I'm just pitching what I'd like myself to do (and have not done consistently yet sdfvh vfjkv dfkj#-),
- Future "I have dm'ed my friends many cryptic things when I was emotionally unwell/very tired and should not have done that." Teller

 

[Boss_of_Runes]

Then re-read it a day later when you're more awake and then piece together a proper proposal post on the forums.

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Yeah I probably should've, lol. I'm not someone who talks a lot when someones venting so it makes me feel guilty for venting to THEM and they don't have anything to say and I'll feel hypocritical, lol. Plus we have talked a lot, but it hasn't felt like these things are able to be talked about outside of such. And while I had what I wanted to say in my head, I typed everything out in one sitting. : )

Writings hard, and I'm bad at critiquing because I feel like I can get mean about it. But this was more to scream in the void and hope that I don't get banned for it or something. I'm glad to clarify things though, I want there to be a discussion to hopefully communicate more with each other

 

[cosmoons]

I know I'm really late to this topic, but I agree with some of the stuff you said.
My biggest pet peeve with the Noble System is that many of the important documents about titles/conduct is buried in the forums, or the often times out of date wiki.
But, however, the system is kind of supposed to be cruel and life like, but, as I've heard, pretty worth it when you succeed.

 

[AtticCat]

My biggest pet peeve with the Noble System is that many of the important documents about titles/conduct is buried in the forums, or the often times out of date wiki.

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Most of the time everything is public! The current title page just hasn't been released publicly yet because the system isn't finished being reworked as of this moment.

Generally all the information, at least with this rework of the system, are kept linked to a master page such as the THIS current one. All the un-highlighted bullet points are the ones yet undone. IIRC, the system is like 70%~ finished atm.