Archived New Character System Discussion

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Proudbucket

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PROBLEM:
When seeing the new character creation system it strikes me as odd. The system values age and gives points so that characters reach the peak of their abilities by the age of 50. What causes me dissonance is to see real data, just for a comparison see the mean age of Olympic gold medalists in the following sports:

archery: 26.2
fencing: 24
wrestling: 25.6
gymnastics: 24.6
triathlon: 27.2

Do you see a pattern? Athletes reach the peak of their performance around the age of 25 but their physical performance decreases as they age and is not compensated by experience.
To think that an archer, a fencer or a wrestler would reach its peak by the age of 50 is plain ridiculous.

For mental tasks the story is different: chess players often reach the grandmaster level in their twenties but they remain competitive in world championships until their fifties (see this and this). One can also see historical figures and the age when they commanded large armies and ran successful military campaigns:

Alexander the great: 24
Napoleon: 36
Saladin: 37
Genghis khan: 42
Julius Caesar: 48

The variance in ages suggest that the peak mental capacity + training can be reached at a young age and remains at peak performance at until their fifties if not longer. My point is that a character should be able to become a fine strategist in its late twenties, whether or not the character can obtain a high ranking position in the army is an entirely different thing that is probably best decided with in-game earnt reputation.

SUGGESTION:
I would suggest modifying or removing the association between points and age. The system is rigid and does a bad job at representing reality, it creates dissonance and limits the ability of characters to do things that they could realistically do.

If the concern is that all characters would become olympians and legendary strategists at a young age I would suggest a limiting the number of exceptional characters. That is, giving characters a certain number of points at creation and allowing the number of points to increase with time or with in-game reputation.


Data on olympians was taken from here.
The mean is produced by averaging the age of the athletes at the time they won the gold medal. Data from the five most recent Olympics were used. All athletes are male.
The dataset that I assembled can be found here

Data on historical figures
- Napoleon
- Saladin
- Julius Caesar
- Alexander the great
- Genghis Khan


Data on chess players
List of world champions (with age!)
List of chess grandmasters
 
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You're misinterpreting the data. Proficiency dictates knowledge and execution, not physical peak. The previous skill cap was expert at 30, so you can actually reach "peak" intellect at around 40, whatever exceeds that number is just power creep to allow players to one-up each other. Characters that break the 40 cap at 50 are so old they even can't physically execute their skill to that level anymore. This is intentional since aged characters then transition into venerable teachers and mentors.

On a side note I wouldn't quite compare the intellectual necessities of Napoleon's logistical campaign half across europe with the lets-kill-rape-and-plunder mechanic of maintaining an army under Alexander the Great. Pointing at something and telling soldiers to conquer it and take the spoils for themselves requires considerably less tactical thinking than supplying an army with a functional supply train and wage payments that was more prevalent in the latter half of the 18th century and up.

Also. Prodigies don't exist in Aloria. Otherwise everyone would want to be one.
 
Napoleon may have been 38 during the War of the Third Coalition, but Blücher was 65 (and 73 at Waterloo!), whereas Kutuzov was 62.

At the battle of Heilsberg (1807, decisive battle of the Third Coalition war), Joachim Murat (Napoleon's cavalry right hand) was 40, Berthier (Napoleon's head of staff) was 54. Bessières (Marshal of the Guard) was 39, Soult and Lannes were 38. That puts Napoleon's general staff at an average of 41 in age.

Of the Russian/Prussian general staff at Heilsberg, general von Bennigsen was 62, Prince Bagration 42, Platov 53 and Dokthurov 51, commanding a cavalry led by 17 to 36 years old nobility (very familiar, innit?).

Point is, all the examples you brought for generals are largely irrelevant & cherry picked exceptional talents. Napoléon was more effective & innovative at 26 than he was in his late 30s.
 
all the examples you brought for generals are largely irrelevant & cherry picked exceptional talents.
The data and its interpretation can be discussed but please, no accusations of cherry picking and intentional bias. I have no hidden agenda or reason to show some pieces of data and hide others. The historical figures were chosen because they were widely known, because they held command over large armies, because they lead those armies and because they successfully forged empires in military campaigns. They were certainly not chosen because of how much they would support my argument.
 
The data and its interpretation can be discussed but please, no accusations of cherry picking and intentional bias. I have no hidden agenda or reason to show some pieces of data and hide others. The historical figures were chosen because they were widely known, because they held command over large armies, because they lead those armies and because they successfully forged empires in military campaigns. They were certainly not chosen because of how much they would support my argument.

There you have it, though. I know one of the examples extremely in-depth and I can tell he performed better at 26 than 40+. However, all his major adversaries and rivals were way above 50, and most general staff of his age was around or above 40.

And please, I like the idea of punishing people for playing unmarried, young & beautiful characters. Even if it's just some leeway for any other in world progressions.
 
I'm not surprised that many people in command are old. Even if someone masters its skills at a young age (as many chess grandmasters do) the army is not likely to put a new face in command because they have not proved their worth.

As to playing young unmarried characters... I think they have their own struggles which make them interesting:
- Oh god... I'm 25 and I have not married!
- F*ck I am only 19 but now I have to lead the family and avenge my dad.
- Damm, I don't have my feet on the ground but I want to marry that noble lady.

On the beautiful/ugly thing... I agree that it is silly. It rarely weights in because it requires other people to react to the appearance (which is hard to emote/display in minecraft).
 
I agree that the proficiency with age is weird, but hey, I don't know about it 100%. As long as it doesn't ruin Azelgio being an expert at piano and violin at 27, I am good. (Which the app was accepted with him being both of those...)
 
I agree that the proficiency with age is weird, but hey, I don't know about it 100%. As long as it doesn't ruin Azelgio being an expert at piano and violin at 27, I am good. (Which the app was accepted with him being both of those...)

Those are both Culture things. So, raw points, he could not even be an expert in one of those areas. He would need a school.
 
Soo, new system saying even if I go to the School of Music for enough time I can or cant be expert in those now?
The School of Music does not currently exist anymore. The Proficiency of Instrumental Music is now it's own Proficiency invested in with Culture points.
 
As far as I see it, the point systems are nicely balanced, having the 40 points in let's say thin blades for the fencers for example requires you to be 50, yes. But let's remember what 40 points represents, it represents the title of grandmaster, the very best of the best, a title that few people I've ever roleplayed with in Regalia has had before. If anything this has just set the prerequisites to achieve this thing that before was purely decided by your activity and/or prestige behind your character.
The second largest rank within the proficiency system is Expert at 20 points, something you can reach at the age of 30, much closer to your 24-27 athlete statistic. Even these gold medalists have had coaches, even after winning gold medals, this would be the grandmasters, the shaolin elder, the Mr. Miyagi, the Syrio Forel. As Marty stated, these men know their techniques, but are too old to be the strongest or fastest, but they can teach the Experts still physically capable enough to perform these techniques well enough to become world champions on anything but a quiz/demonstrations of the proficiencies.
This would be why the mentally-oriented skills like chess would still be usable at a late age, because that doesn't recquire the physical peaks of their races.
 
Sure, I think the confusion/dissonance comes from assuming that proficiency points in a discipline reflect capacity whereas in most cases it is a mix of proficiency and physical state.

On hindsight it is obvious: even a chess grandmaster will perform badly when drunk, sick or old. The same goes for the performance a sword grandmaster that would be diminished reduced as he ages. Unfortunately I (and probably other players) would instinctively think that a grandmaster would fare better than a young champion in a tournament without taking into account the age and physical condition of the venerable grandmaster.
 
Unfortunately I (and probably other players) would instinctively think that a grandmaster would fare better than a young champion in a tournament without taking into account the age and physical condition of the venerable grandmaster.
Maybe that is a right assumption. At the end of the day though, the Proficiency page clearly mentions that Proficiencies are just guidelines for players to express their character designs. Whether or not the younger warrior chooses to lose to a more proficienct and venerable teacher despite age is entirely up to the players in question during the IRP scene. Proficiency only becomes a dick measuring competition when they start arguing about numbers in OOC and call in staff to mediate.