Archived Money Caducity

[Proudbucket]

Suggestion:
Remove 5% of all the money players and factions have every month.
Compensate that loss by greatly increasing earnings (quests, vote, monsters).

Discussion:
As the situation stands players can accumulate regals and become inactive for years without problems. This proposal encourages players spending, rewards activity and penalizes hoarding and inactivity.

Regal caducity and liquidity encourages spending and can revitalize the economy. Eventually this also fixes inflation. The money in the server eventually fixes at 20 times the net earning of all active players. This means that money does not accumulate in the server.

 

[65jes89]

No thanks, just increase taxes or something

 

[Zacatero]

No thanks, just increase taxes or something

Click to shrink...

I dislike both ideas

 

[FireFan96]

The issue with taking 5% of everyone money every month is that the players with less money are going be screwed in the short run, since their limited funds are more important to them, and losing even 10r from 100 can set them back a long time.

While that's not to say players with lots of regals don't feel the same way, they would still be able to afford everything they have. I have like 50k, and I could manage if I lost 5%. But I'd still raise hell because I just lost 2.5k for nothing. Now If I only had 1k, I would also be upset that I lost 500r. But I'd also be more affected as I don't have that much to begin with, and may not be able to afford things now that I lost 500r of my income.

TL;DR nobody would enjoy losing 5% of their earning, rich or poor.

 

[BenRekt]

There needs to be something expensive run by the staff / npcs that people want to buy i.e. a key for a locked treasure chest with some kind of one of a kind lore item inside, with a chance of it being something insanely rare (such as a diamond fire aspect axe).

You're advocating for a money sink in its rawest form, but while although I agree with the end goal - that there are too many regals that both exist but are not used - you can't just have the server taking money from people and giving nothing in return. That will only leave players feeling cheated, especially new ones who might desperately need it for taxes.

Come up with ideas for good money sinks and you'll get your desired result.

 

[Proudbucket]

I feel people are getting my proposal wrong, perhaps I didn't phrase it correctly.
Let me stress one part of it and discusse it a bit:

Suggestion:
Remove 5% of all the money players and factions have every month.
Compensate that loss by greatly increasing earnings (quests, vote, monsters).

They could increase by 100% the income from voting, quests and monsters and the proposal would work.
Paying rent or taxes would be easier but storing large sums of money would make no sense.

The proposal does not aim to create a money sink. Money sinks can reduce spending and create economic stagnation. The proposal aims to increase the amount of regals that players obtain but most importantly, increase player spending and reactivate the economy.

 

[Gumee]

I'm gonna disagree, this is too messy. It'd be better to add money sinks that people don't realize are money sinks. Like paying for access to "high quality" server owned darkrooms or something. No one wants something thats too intrusive, it limits playstyle.

 

[Riley0628]

If the percentage was much smaller for people with smaller amounts of money. I think it should be based on how much of the non fac wealth you have. If you had a (probably quite a large amount if it were calculated) 2% piece of the economy then you should be taxed some reasonable multiple of that. If I owned 5% of the player wealth in the server then maybe I should be taxed 1-2 times that amount. Also your faction rank should be taken into consideration. If you are a leader, wealth is almost necessary. You must make sure that your bank doesn't fail if your faction doesn't pay taxes. If you are an officer, you probably need a little less.

If this plan goes through, I think that faction player taxes should be gotten rid of or combined with server taxes. I may be paying 7.5% of my wealth to the server at whatever time. Maybe a small part of that goes towards faction bank. Of course, claim taxes should go to the server.
If this idea happens, there would need to be a lot of thought and consultation with the playerbase.
Deuces

 

[Ninja124r]

no thanks just make admin shops for a while

 

[Reaganism]

I suggested this before, and I wholly agree on the concept with a simple change.

Set a base amount and a stretch amount. No money is taken below the base amount, and the amount lost each week progressively increases between the base and the stretch amount.

Thus you avoid hurting new players / players with little wealth.

 

[CainsTedTalk]

I agree with the base amount, as one of massive poorer players, keeping regals in the bank is hard enough without a monthly loss.

 

[Proudbucket]

SNIP

Click to shrink...

Sounds quite reasonable.

 

[Kellock93]

While from a logical view it makes sense to reward active players and punish inactive ones, this suggestion is unfortunately not a viable option.

Think about it like this, the most people with a lot of money built up that money over the years, often with a lot of personal effort. Now you just remove some of their money every month, what would be the point for these players to continue to try earning money? They will lose it anyway.

In the end, you would completely crush the Tertiary Sector with this, without actually fixing the First and Secondary Sector because people have enough resources for years anyway.

So no, sorry but this idea wasn't really thought through properly.

 

[Reaganism]

Think about it like this, the most people with a lot of money built up that money over the years, often with a lot of personal effort. Now you just remove some of their money every month, what would be the point for these players to continue to try earning money? They will lose it anyway.

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They could invest in goods and thus retain their money in "physical" form, and through that there'd be an induced demand in the general market.

In the end, you would completely crush the Tertiary Sector with this, without actually fixing the First and Secondary Sector because people have enough resources for years anyway.

Click to shrink...

I disagree. The tertiary sector is pretty much dead because any auction can be crushed by those players who accumulated wealth over the years (mostly faction owners) and new players have no chance of competing with them.

 

[Kellock93]

They could invest in goods and thus retain their money in "physical" form, and through that, there'd be an induced demand in the general market.

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That would work if there was a demand so you could turn those goods back into money, but well, there isn't.

I disagree. The tertiary sector is pretty much dead because any auction can be crushed by those players who accumulated wealth over the years (mostly faction owners) and new players have no chance of competing with them.

Click to shrink...

Last time I checked that is how an auction works ... not to mention that surely doesn't mean it is dead, just pricey.

 

[Reaganism]

That would work if there was a demand so you could turn those goods back into money, but well, there isn't.

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We've both studied economics and know that players will find an equilibrium between the disutility of commodities and the losses suffered through negative interest.

Last time I checked that is how an auction works ... not to mention that surely doesn't mean it is dead, just pricey.

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More so, it's fairly unhealthy and leaves new players vulnerable & without purchasing power in the tertiary sector. It's especially bad when auctions or prices are driven up by semi-inactive old players against active new players.

 

[Alj23]

But like, why? Why. This doesn't help at all. The issue is there not being enough money in the hands of the average player to spend, coupled with there not being enough of an incentive for people to produce items to sell because prices are so low. Like, this doesn't help at all.

Hoarding money isn't a terrible thing at this point in time. It doesn't negatively impact the economy or other players beyond the point of repair. It's essentially just money waiting to be spent on something worthwhile. And that's the problems, there's nothing worthwhile to spend money on anymore. If the economy was in a better shape, it would be beneficial to see the players and factions that had hoarded large sums of money spend it and disperse it into the hands of a multitude of players. What doesn't help is just taking the money in the form of a money sink and not having it do anything. FOR THE LOVE OF EVERYTHING HOLY PLEASE STOP SUGGESTING MONEY SINKS TO FIX THE PROBLEMS. THEY WONT. THEY DONT FUNCTION LIKE YOU THINK THEY DO. PEOPLE KEEP SUGGESTING MONEY SINKS WITHOUT ANY IDEA WHAT THEY REALLY DO FOR THE SITUATION. STOP PLEASE.

Instead, the following needs to be done for our economy to begin (notice I said begin, not immediately) to get back on track:

• Keep changing mechanics to make grinding materials harder than they are right now and makes items be used faster (i.e: god armor breaking faster)
• Improve our /tp market overall. Actually create some competition. Right now it almost isn't worth it to shop beyond the richshops.
• Make it reasonably easier for the dedicated, active player to earn more money. Hopefully the players earning more money would also coincide with a market revival so they have somewhere to spend and it keeps flowing between players.

You do all of this and hopefully you see the average active player either spend time and invest money to make their own items, or they spend time grinding some money and go buy the items from other players, who in turn spend that money somewhere else and it keeps flowing.

 

[Proudbucket]

Hoarding money isn't a terrible thing at this point in time. It doesn't negatively impact the economy or other players beyond the point of repair.

Click to shrink...

More money means less value per unit, effectively money gets devaluated (you can see for example how last year Marty's art for regals auction was around 15k while this year around 30k). This means that the reward that the server offers for some actions (e.g. voting/questing/darkrooming) becomes smaller. Essentially you would need to vote/quest/darkroom way more if you wanted to get one a piece made by Marty and at one point the reward so small that working for it is just not worth it.

But I want to stress that it is not only about having too much money or too little, it is about encouraging players to spend money. A traditional money sink can cause money scarcity, discourage spending and create a stagnant economy. In this proposal I'm suggesting increasing the amount of money that players can receive and adding dynamic money sink that encourages players to spend their money.

It's essentially just money waiting to be spent on something worthwhile. And that's the problems, there's nothing worthwhile to spend money on anymore.

Click to shrink...

Yes, it would be nice if there would be something that all players would continuously want to spend their money on. We have taxes and rents but those are not dynamic systems and no not respond to the amount of money that there is in the market. The current proposal does not generate a service that might be desired by players, instead it encourages players to spend their money on whatever exists as that option is better than loosing money.

Instead, the following needs to be done for our economy to begin (notice I said begin, not immediately) to get back on track: SNIP

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And all those are suggestions that might have some merit and they can be discussed but that should be done in a dedicated post, here that would only derail the discussion.

 

[Zacatero]

I dislike the general feel of this. It discourages saving money because 5% of my 100k is 5k and 5% of joe schmo's 100r is 5r. Im the one who was smart in saving money so why should i lose so much? There are already taxes and money sinks in place.

 

[Proudbucket]

I dislike the general feel of this. It discourages saving money because 5% of my 100k is 5k and 5% of joe schmo's 100r is 5r. Im the one who was smart in saving money so why should i lose so much? There are already taxes and money sinks in place.

Click to shrink...

I suspect you are judging the proposal on its short term effects or a perception that it is unfair to you compared with other players. If so, also consider the long term effects of the proposal on the server as a whole.

You might have more fun playing in a server with a stable non devaluating currency where people is encouraged to quest/vote/darkroom than in a server where currency looses value over time and where the benefit of voting/questing/darkrooming is increasingly small. The net balance might still be positive even if you loose money in the transition and lose the ability to accumulate large amounts of money.

 

[Zacatero]

What devalues the money is if I have a lot of it and then go buy everything from the market. If I just save it up, nothing changes. circulating more and more money is what devalues it

 

[4tv]

I Strongly don't like this.

 

[Kellock93]

We've both studied economics and know that players will find an equilibrium between the disutility of commodities and the losses suffered through negative interest.

Click to shrink...

That might be true, but that is not the point. This fixes nothing, it only screws people with a lot of money.

More so, it's fairly unhealthy and leaves new players vulnerable & without purchasing power in the tertiary sector. It's especially bad when auctions or prices are driven up by semi-inactive old players against active new players.

Click to shrink...

So you are saying because new player can't purchase high level commodities your solution is to remove them all together by removing the motivation to earn money in the first place?

I seriously don't understand why you are defending this suggestion. If you studied economics you should be well aware that the abundance of money isn't the issue in this case, rather that there is not enough stuff to spend it on.

 

[Zacatero]

New players have to struggle or else theres no game

 

[falconhand]

This is a very bad idea. The issue isnt amount of regals, It's amount of ITEMS.

 

[Reaganism]

I seriously don't understand why you are defending this suggestion. If you studied economics you should be well aware that the abundance of money isn't the issue in this case, rather that there is not enough stuff to spend it on.

Click to shrink...

Creating more stuff to spend the money on will either make that stuff abundant and too easy to acquire (if the price is suitable for new players) or out of reach for newcomers to the server economy, further demotivating those trying to break in.

That might be true, but that is not the point. This fixes nothing, it only screws people with a lot of money.

Click to shrink...

How do you think the great amounts of regals in private banks should be handled, then?

 

[falconhand]

It does not need to be. When Regals are simply sitting in banks, they are not actively being used in the economy, rendering them irrelevant.

 

[MokeDuck]

Suggestion:
Remove 5% of all the money players and factions have every month.
Compensate that loss by greatly increasing earnings (quests, vote, monsters).

Discussion:
As the situation stands players can accumulate regals and become inactive for years without problems. This proposal encourages players spending, rewards activity and penalizes hoarding and inactivity.

Regal caducity and liquidity encourages spending and can revitalize the economy. Eventually this also fixes inflation. The money in the server eventually fixes at 20 times the net earning of all active players. This means that money does not accumulate in the server.

Click to shrink...

I don't really see a problem. I feel like that, if you did see a problem, maybe add this to people who CONSISTANTLY only log on once every month... but really, inactive hoarders ARE a money sink already anyways so why take money from everyone just cause its already gone.

in any case the real problem I see for the economy is that everything is really easy to get. a bunch of old players are just stocked up on diamonds and its just not OK... I think if anything, find out who has oodles and oodles of diamonds and negotiate to get them deleted in a way that they can agree with... I've heard people say they were pressured into x-ray because people have too many diamonds and you can't really compete with shops and stuff... again, this would suck big time and I really don't suggest doing this, its just more needed then money sinks and such.

 

[Zacatero]

everything is really easy to get.

Click to shrink...

A lot of things like the different ores are now harder to get, with massive restore extended to 6 months.. So that will take time to impact a change

 

[MokeDuck]

A lot of things like the different ores are now harder to get, with massive restore extended to 6 months.. So that will take time to impact a change

Click to shrink...

yea, but I don't think the diamonds at /tp market are actually being mined. I think many of them are from massive stockpiles... but idk. Thats just what I've heard... I would need some confirmation on that from the shopowners themselves