Archived Mecharic's Faction Suggestion Thread

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Mecharic

Mecharic

I'm tempermental, deal with it.
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So, as we all know, factions got a decent (and long awaited) expansion in features. Some of these features are pretty awesome (like tax/wages) others decidedly less so (like the price reduction). This is my thread for all the alterations that I, as a person who's led factions both large and small, think would be a good system to set factions to.

There is a tl:dr at the end of this. Also, I apologize in advance if the text wanders.

Taxes, Wages, and Rent
Taxes that can be levied by a faction leader onto his people are a much awaited addition to the plugin, for me at least. I and others have been suggesting it for ages. The ability to set wages to players is also a very awesome addition to the plugin. There are some flaws, as I see them, in the system, however. The primary flaw, in my eyes, is the fact that all taxes are daily. I believe that the following changes should be made:
  1. Taxes (Player -> Faction) should be taken once a week. Why? So that players have the time needed to gather their due taxes. Making people pay once every day forces a poor player to be active every single day in order to be sure they can cover their payment. This is not a good system because it will leave large numbers of players who can't be online daily either without factions (if the faction kicks non-payers) or feeling pressured to always be online when they simply don't have the time to do so.
  2. Wages (Faction -> Player) should be weekly as well. This is mostly to help balance out the weekly tax, but also so that people getting paid a wage can have something to look forward to (Wooo, payday!) rather than just getting tiny bits of money every day.
  3. Rent A (Faction -> Land) should be Monthly. Why monthly? So that a faction has an entire month to gather the large sum of money they need, and so that they can, if needed, beg money from an ally or from a wealthy player in order to meet that months rent. At the very least they can prepare for the loss of all their land if they know they won't be able to make the payment, since one day just isn't enough time to make sure all valuables in a faction are safe from looters.
  4. Rent B (Faction -> Land) A faction really shouldn't lose all of their land the first time they miss a rent payment. Sometimes a faction leader forgets to make sure the bank has enough, or doesn't know they've run short. Other times a faction just needs a little extra time to gather the money for payment. I believe that factions should have a 3-strikes rule. That is, a faction can miss 3 payments in a row without losing their land, after which they will lose all of their territory. After all, with the new "MassiveRestore" system the loss of territory can result in their entire base being erased, which would likely result in all the players getting disheartened and leaving the server indefinitely.
    • I would like to make a notation here that if payments for territory are altered to once monthly my 3-strikes would be altered to 3 days grace period to give factions "panic time" where they rush to gather the money or remove their at-risk items from the base so that they can recover when they regain their territory.
Faction Tributes
Now, I know that some people like the rather damaging faction tribute system, but I feel it can be improved infinitely. I've made another thread with the suggestion, but for the sake of getting all of my bases covered here I'm going to post it again, albeit worded differently.

This is the current tribute system:

Bracket 1 = 1 to 9 players = 20 Regals per player in the faction (180r, 180 more than o)
Bracket 2 = 10 to 19 players = 30 Regals per player in the faction (570, 3.1 times B1)
Bracket 3 = 20 to 29 players = 40 Regals per player in the faction (1160, 2 times B2)
Bracket 4 = 30 to 39 players = 60 Regals per player in the faction (2340, 2 times B3)
Bracket 5 = 40 to 49 players = 80 Regals per players in the faction (3920, 1.7 times B4)
Bracket 6 = 50 or more players = 100 Regals per player in the faction (59 * 100 = 5900, 1.5 times B5)​

And this is my tribute system:

Bracket 1(1-9): 60r per player (60 to 540) - | - (450 more than zero lul)
Bracket 2(10-19): 50r per player (500 to 800) - | - (800, 1.5 times larger than B1)
Bracket 3(20-39): 40r per player (800 to 1,160) - | - (1160, 1.5 times larger than B2)
Bracket 4(40-49): 30r per player (1,200 to 1,470) - | - (1470, 1.8 times larger than B3)
Bracket 5(50+): 25r per player (1,250+) - | - (59 * 25 = 1,475, 1.3 times larger than B4)
​
Now, as a person who has been the leader of several megafactions (over 50 players) I can state rather happily that being part of a giant faction is fun. There are always people to talk to, lots of stuff to do (for people or for the faction itself) and there's usually a full set of utilities to support the training of new players. Hisoka, for example, peaked at 108 members. If not for McMuffin's Loner-Raid and forcing me to pay him a hefty tribute Hisoka would exist today, rather than dividing into child-factions and eventually drifting apart. The moral of that story is simple: the current tribute system acts as a deterrent toward larger factions, keeping them to many small, often inactive, factions.

Faction Price
I'm going to be honest, I dislike the 100r for a faction setup. I understand that the staff want to give new people a chance to make a faction with their friends but I seriously doubt that it will help the server in the long run. You may gather and keep more players, but the overall quality of factions will degrade. I think that the price should be 1000r - small enough that you only need 5 new players (a group of friends) to found one, but expensive enough that people still need to work for it and factions retain value.

I can't speak for others, but if I had joined MassiveCraft and instantly been able to make myself a faction (disregarding the fact that I came here to join a friends faction) I'd never have become the player I am today. My buildings would still suck, Mechbank would never have happened, I'd have no allies, I'd probably not even be playing MineCraft right now (probably WoW or something). I'm sure the same can be said for many people (@AaronChuey, @Shayin, @Lizman1000, @nbcstrike5, @Marayla, @Okb123, @Xanderab, @todd178, @Wannag, @favoured) that I've met and known - if you hadn't been forced to join an existing faction you'd be somewhere else right now.

Besides the influence that factions have over player leadership, they also help players enhance their skills in almost every aspect of the server. I wouldn't have learned how to build anything more complex than a cave without VSTC and ThomasOverMany. I'm sure others can say the same (I've seen your early builds @HalfTheServer, you cannot deny this) and my assorted stats would be much lower if I'd never wanted to prove my value to a larger faction (VSTC & Osion) before getting leadership roles.

Basically what I'm saying is that it's great you're trying to get people to stay on the server by allowing them to make their own kingdoms right away, but I don't think it will have a positive effect on the server. It will just result is massive numbers of amateur factions spamming the server with bad constructions and then realizing they need to pay for the land they've claimed and going inactive.

Too Long; Didn't Read
  1. Taxes need to be revised so that factions have more time to prepare for the rent on land & have a grace period. I suggest once a month for land payments (price increased accordingly) and once weekly for tax/wage payments to/by players.
    • Grace Period should either be 3 days of missed payments or 3 days if payments are monthly.
  2. The Tribute System is a deterrent to larger factions (which keep people active on MassiveCraft) and has killed several. It needs to be revised so that larger factions don't have as giant a tribute payment at war surrender.
  3. Factions should cost 1000 regals so that players still need to put effort into purchasing them or need to join existing factions, otherwise you will have loads of ugly and inactive minifacs.
And that's Mecharic's Faction Suggestion Thread. Hope you enjoyed, hope you read it, and hope you respond! :)
 
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While I don't believe you actually have to be online to have your tax paid, (I'm pretty sure the plugin automatically takes money from your account thingamajigger and transfers it to the faction bank) I believe you have a good point. One issue, though, that I found was that if the same amount of regals were charged for faction taxes, but had to be paid monthly, that would probably add up quickly to quite a discouraging sum that must be paid all at one time. A tax that would be, say, 1r per day would be a bit easier to pay since the player doesn't have to save all their money for a large tax at the end of the month. For as much as it's worth, that's my opinion. Everything else seems reasonable.
 
If factions had cost 100r when I had joined the server, I definitely would've started a faction as soon as I could. And I would have driven it into the ground. Having to join a large faction is what creates good faction leaders. As people earn their way up the ranks, they learn vital aspects of faction management without the crushing weight of full leadership. Back in Hisoka, I ran two whole towns before being ready to lead my own faction. If either of those towns had been their own faction, they probably would have become a giant smoking crater under my leadership. But without having to lead an entire faction, I was able to learn and understand how to manage people in a stable environment.

The next generation of faction leaders, the ones who will join with the 100r faction price, will inevitably end up with smoking craters of their own. They won't be forced to join larger factions to learn vital skills, and only a handful of them will have what it takes to actually lead. Large factions will become rarer and rarer, and the overall quality of factions will decrease. This is why I agree with Mecharic that the faction price should be at least 1000r.
 
I agree with the price being 1000r, however I see things from a bit different perspective. When I first joined, I had 0 regals and a goal to start a faction similar to most other newbies. However, different from you guys, my goal was stronger than anything else and I ended up faction-hopping and stealing (Which is legal btw) and then selling everything I got for a few regals. It took about a week, but I did end up making my goal. However, now it screwed me as I've needed to repay materials and wage war with those that I crossed. So on another side of the spectrum, I believe that too steep of a faction price will increase the need for robbery.

This is why I believe that 1000r hits that perfect balance. Too expensive for extreme new-starters, yet cheap enough where it won't be extremely damaging if someone decides to rob factions to earn the regals.

If they're going to change it they'll have to act quick, though. Or else the economy will be pretty much permanently marked down lower than 1000r.
 
I absolutely agree with the idea that we should be encouraging larger, more settled factions rather than an abundance of small new factions. Making a faction 100r makes it seem like such as small investment, when in reality running a large faction can end up taking hours as leaders settle problems between members, set members on new tasks for the faction, and recruit/integrate new faction members into the community. Large factions can provide great starting points for new players, as large factions will usually have a miniature community within itself, full of active members and officers which can help a player easily get used to Massivecraft's community without acting like an idiot.

On the other hand, new factions run by new players are horrible for creating active members, as their leaders are often inexperienced, immature, and completely naïve newblets with no concept of diplomacy or common sense. I know this from seeing countless new factions burn themselves out, as well as from being a complete idiot myself when I got my first faction. I had barely spent a month on the server when someone (COUGH * @Mecharic * COUGH) thought it would be a great idea to give me "temporary control" of a new faction he bought. Well within a month I had increased the number of members within the faction to around 20, and had gotten in around half as many wars. The city was filled with cobble buildings, cobble pillars, and there was even a cobble island floating above it! This was all in the desert, so it ended up looking about as pretty as a schizophrenic in a daycare center. When 2-3 factions declared war on me, stating that they would remain at war until I changed my faction's building style, I honestly thought that they were using that reason as an excuse to attack me! I had no idea what the heck I was doing, and worse, I didn't know it!

The faction taxes implemented can be useful for weeding out smaller factions, but that's only if we keep the price up! If we allow the regal cost to remain at 100r, then people will take the easier route of making tiny factions! Small, 2-10 man factions will sprout up like cobble mushrooms around worlds, as hundreds of noobs try their luck at ruling their own village rather than attempting to integrate into a larger faction's community. The average "lifetime" of players will go down as they end up griefing the environment and imploding when they are either decimated by larger pvp factions or just grow bored. In my opinion, the price of factions simply must go up or the Massivecraft community will suffer major damage.
 
YO Mech!

SUPER Opinion hear!

I think mini facs are cool! Their leaders strive to play more, get that sence of AWESOME and eventualy become regular members like you,ME,Satisarah,Jack_Castl,SupremeCripple(and his shitty leader),as well as all the other well known leaders and faction officers.
Note many great officers from factions started out in a faction but pulled out and had time running their own faction, some found leaders they respect and some found out that they where pretty unique leaders themselves and stuck at it.

HEY ALL YOU NEVER WAS A FACTION LEADER! I say leave the faction for a bit and try at your own! or ask your leader to step down for a while and let you take charge and get a feel for it.

 
I'm building a new storage (3x3 chunks) to avoid faction taxes. When I'm done my faction will have a 60 irl year lifetime. Lucky me hehe.
But to me it only seems like a way of decreasing the amount of large factions, not sure why since it should be completely the opposite in my opinion but I support lowering the taxes for dem poor pepz.
 
The tribute system could definitely do with a rework.

I don't support any of your suggestions to the tax and faction price however.
 
MonMarty said:
The tribute system could definitely do with a rework.

I don't support any of your suggestions to the tax and faction price however.
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I spent my hard earned (I had to wake up for this) time writing that giant post, you could at least explain why you disagree, or link me to a post where you've done so :)
 
Mecharic said:
I spent my hard earned (I had to wake up for this) time writing that giant post, you could at least explain why you disagree, or link me to a post where you've done so :)
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Your points are supported by opinions and assumptions based on your opinions. It's a construction of your points of view, and limited to said scope.

In some cases I can reply with factual argumentation, but in other cases I only have my opinion as a counter argument, which is only more valuable due to my position.

Do you care for me to write our those statements? I've gotten used to people disregarding opinions that I found the previous response preferable to simply ignoring the tag or using a Disagree rating.
 
MonMarty said:
Your points are supported by opinions and assumptions based on your opinions. It's a construction of your points of view, and limited to said scope.

In some cases I can reply with factual argumentation, but in other cases I only have my opinion as a counter argument, which is only more valuable due to my position.

Do you care for me to write our those statements? I've gotten used to people disregarding opinions that I found the previous response preferable to simply ignoring the tag or using a Disagree rating.
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Go for it. I'll do my best not to disregard your thoughts, though I make no promises on agreeing with them :)
 
Wait so we decreased the price from 2kr to 100r? when most of us where wanting the price to be boosted due to too many factions. Anyone can make 100r in 5 minutes. Honestly this is a derp move by far.
 
@MonMarty - So are you going to compile any thoughts for me? I'm open to your thoughts, even if I may not agree with them.
 
MonMarty said:
Your points are supported by opinions and assumptions based on your opinions. It's a construction of your points of view, and limited to said scope.

In some cases I can reply with factual argumentation, but in other cases I only have my opinion as a counter argument, which is only more valuable due to my position.

Do you care for me to write our those statements? I've gotten used to people disregarding opinions that I found the previous response preferable to simply ignoring the tag or using a Disagree rating.
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I never did get any of your statements here Monmarty.
 
Mecharic said:
  1. Taxes (Player -> Faction) should be taken once a week. Why? So that players have the time needed to gather their due taxes. Making people pay once every day forces a poor player to be active every single day in order to be sure they can cover their payment. This is not a good system because it will leave large numbers of players who can't be online daily either without factions (if the faction kicks non-payers) or feeling pressured to always be online when they simply don't have the time to do so.
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Wether you choose to tell yourself to set aside a certain sum every week or pay on a daily basis makes very little actual difference. I think the mithril tax policy is like "Kill three mobs every day or 21 in the weekend" and it covers the citizen tax. Making the tax once a week doesn't make it easier to afford, it only delays potential removal of those who cannot pay for it, because if you can pay for it, it really doesn't matter if it's daily or weekly.
Mecharic said:
  1. Wages (Faction -> Player) should be weekly as well. This is mostly to help balance out the weekly tax, but also so that people getting paid a wage can have something to look forward to (Wooo, payday!) rather than just getting tiny bits of money every day.
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Covered above.
Mecharic said:
  1. Rent A (Faction -> Land) should be Monthly. Why monthly? So that a faction has an entire month to gather the large sum of money they need, and so that they can, if needed, beg money from an ally or from a wealthy player in order to meet that months rent. At the very least they can prepare for the loss of all their land if they know they won't be able to make the payment, since one day just isn't enough time to make sure all valuables in a faction are safe from looters.
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The same principle as above holds true. I'd rather a faction disband after a couple of days of not being able to afford taxes than to have it sit around for 3 more weeks and then disband. It doesn't add anything to the server to have a delay of execution, because it's an inevitability. This allows people to either get a fresh start going, or allow new people who /can/ pay for the taxes to take their place.
Mecharic said:
  1. Rent B (Faction -> Land) A faction really shouldn't lose all of their land the first time they miss a rent payment. Sometimes a faction leader forgets to make sure the bank has enough, or doesn't know they've run short. Other times a faction just needs a little extra time to gather the money for payment. I believe that factions should have a 3-strikes rule. That is, a faction can miss 3 payments in a row without losing their land, after which they will lose all of their territory. After all, with the new "MassiveRestore" system the loss of territory can result in their entire base being erased, which would likely result in all the players getting disheartened and leaving the server indefinitely.
    • I would like to make a notation here that if payments for territory are altered to once monthly my 3-strikes would be altered to 3 days grace period to give factions "panic time" where they rush to gather the money or remove their at-risk items from the base so that they can recover when they regain their territory.
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How is this honestly even a consideration. The taxes are minuscule. Anyone who is literally on the edge of losing their faction all the time needs to reconsider their priorities and whether they actually deserve what they have. All you're suggesting again is a delay of execution, which has no actual concrete advantage to the server or the community at large, only the individual.
Mecharic said:
Faction Tributes
Now, I know that some people like the rather damaging faction tribute system, but I feel it can be improved infinitely. I've made another thread with the suggestion, but for the sake of getting all of my bases covered here I'm going to post it again, albeit worded differently.

This is the current tribute system:

Bracket 1 = 1 to 9 players = 20 Regals per player in the faction (180r, 180 more than o)
Bracket 2 = 10 to 19 players = 30 Regals per player in the faction (570, 3.1 times B1)
Bracket 3 = 20 to 29 players = 40 Regals per player in the faction (1160, 2 times B2)
Bracket 4 = 30 to 39 players = 60 Regals per player in the faction (2340, 2 times B3)
Bracket 5 = 40 to 49 players = 80 Regals per players in the faction (3920, 1.7 times B4)
Bracket 6 = 50 or more players = 100 Regals per player in the faction (59 * 100 = 5900, 1.5 times B5)​

And this is my tribute system:

Bracket 1(1-9): 60r per player (60 to 540) - | - (450 more than zero lul)
Bracket 2(10-19): 50r per player (500 to 800) - | - (800, 1.5 times larger than B1)
Bracket 3(20-39): 40r per player (800 to 1,160) - | - (1160, 1.5 times larger than B2)
Bracket 4(40-49): 30r per player (1,200 to 1,470) - | - (1470, 1.8 times larger than B3)
Bracket 5(50+): 25r per player (1,250+) - | - (59 * 25 = 1,475, 1.3 times larger than B4)
​
Now, as a person who has been the leader of several megafactions (over 50 players) I can state rather happily that being part of a giant faction is fun. There are always people to talk to, lots of stuff to do (for people or for the faction itself) and there's usually a full set of utilities to support the training of new players. Hisoka, for example, peaked at 108 members. If not for McMuffin's Loner-Raid and forcing me to pay him a hefty tribute Hisoka would exist today, rather than dividing into child-factions and eventually drifting apart. The moral of that story is simple: the current tribute system acts as a deterrent toward larger factions, keeping them to many small, often inactive, factions.
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The Tribute is subject to discussion, but I think changing the numbers is slightly not done. The more player a faction has, the easier it should be for them to generate income. It's simple math, so an up scaling system makes sense. There have been problems with "War factions", large network alliances of like 5 members per faction, thus keeping the war tribute low. Our immediate solution is to simply deny the right to actually declare wars as a faction unless you have a minimum member count, but this will take some time to implement.
Mecharic said:
Faction Price
I'm going to be honest, I dislike the 100r for a faction setup. I understand that the staff want to give new people a chance to make a faction with their friends but I seriously doubt that it will help the server in the long run. You may gather and keep more players, but the overall quality of factions will degrade. I think that the price should be 1000r - small enough that you only need 5 new players (a group of friends) to found one, but expensive enough that people still need to work for it and factions retain value.

I can't speak for others, but if I had joined MassiveCraft and instantly been able to make myself a faction (disregarding the fact that I came here to join a friends faction) I'd never have become the player I am today. My buildings would still suck, Mechbank would never have happened, I'd have no allies, I'd probably not even be playing MineCraft right now (probably WoW or something). I'm sure the same can be said for many people (@AaronChuey, @Shayin, @Lizman1000, @nbcstrike5, @Marayla, @Okb123, @Xanderab, @todd178, @Wannag, @favoured) that I've met and known - if you hadn't been forced to join an existing faction you'd be somewhere else right now.

Besides the influence that factions have over player leadership, they also help players enhance their skills in almost every aspect of the server. I wouldn't have learned how to build anything more complex than a cave without VSTC and ThomasOverMany. I'm sure others can say the same (I've seen your early builds @HalfTheServer, you cannot deny this) and my assorted stats would be much lower if I'd never wanted to prove my value to a larger faction (VSTC & Osion) before getting leadership roles.

Basically what I'm saying is that it's great you're trying to get people to stay on the server by allowing them to make their own kingdoms right away, but I don't think it will have a positive effect on the server. It will just result is massive numbers of amateur factions spamming the server with bad constructions and then realizing they need to pay for the land they've claimed and going inactive.
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How do you define a faction as a faction of quality?
  • Good PVPers?
  • Good Bulders?
  • Large Factions?
  • Factions with a functional governance?
  • Factions who have giant alliances?
  • Factions with a high resource output?
I personally believe a good faction, is a faction where all the members are having fun, while not having fun at the expense of other players, while also maintaining a good participation of the community in general.

By this definition, the gross majority of factions in existence, does not meet the bill of a "good" faction in my eyes, that includes most of your subsidiary factions of the Hisokian collective. Ultimately it's the big factions owners that are the most vocal about wanting the server staff to force new players to join factions before making their own. Funnily enough, I think this actually exposes the very reason and problem of factions. Either these faction leaders are already aware, or don't want to face the reality that their factions are not attractive places to be for new players, either due to the huge distrust that is aimed towards them, the pure exploitation by throwing noobs into slave villages, or by generally disregarding them as newbies who don't have a say in matters.

This more than anything loses the server players, the friends element is the strongest when people join the server, and the ability to be able to set up my own faction with my friends is the only reason why I stayed. We want players to have immediate entry quality gameplay, not have to slave away to someone who already has thousands of Regals just to scrap by some junk to hopefully set up their own faction in 2 months by the time the rest of their friends have already given up due to lack of immediate progress.
 
MonMarty said:
Wether you choose to tell yourself to set aside a certain sum every week or pay on a daily basis makes very little actual difference. I think the mithril tax policy is like "Kill three mobs every day or 21 in the weekend" and it covers the citizen tax. Making the tax once a week doesn't make it easier to afford, it only delays potential removal of those who cannot pay for it, because if you can pay for it, it really doesn't matter if it's daily or weekly. -|-The same principle as above holds true. I'd rather a faction disband after a couple of days of not being able to afford taxes than to have it sit around for 3 more weeks and then disband. It doesn't add anything to the server to have a delay of execution, because it's an inevitability. This allows people to either get a fresh start going, or allow new people who /can/ pay for the taxes to take their place. -|- How is this honestly even a consideration. The taxes are minuscule. Anyone who is literally on the edge of losing their faction all the time needs to reconsider their priorities and whether they actually deserve what they have. All you're suggesting again is a delay of execution, which has no actual concrete advantage to the server or the community at large, only the individual.
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On Delay: Why is giving faction members who are in a doomed faction time to gather their most vital materials or work to pay the rent a bad thing? Yes, it delays the factions disbandment - but that's good, because that delay (which as you clearly stated doesn't save the faction in the long run) can give people a chance to save their faction by going on a mobhunt or pumping emergency funding into the base. Even if they can't save the faction, the individuals who make up that faction can use the panic time to gather supplies and come out with their personal wealth intact and able to find or found a new faction.

On Individuals: What is this server but a large pile of individuals who come here because they enjoy it? No one is being forced to stay, they need to be enticed to stay - and an individual doesn't give a rats ass about the community that they're part of, they just see "oh, everything I've ever worked on is gone. Bye bye." and then we lose that individual who could have gone on to do great things on MassiveCraft.

MonMarty said:
The Tribute is subject to discussion, but I think changing the numbers is slightly not done. The more player a faction has, the easier it should be for them to generate income. It's simple math, so an up scaling system makes sense. There have been problems with "War factions", large network alliances of like 5 members per faction, thus keeping the war tribute low. Our immediate solution is to simply deny the right to actually declare wars as a faction unless you have a minimum member count, but this will take some time to implement.
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Your first misconception is that larger factions can make more money. They really can't. Have you ever been part of a faction with over 50 people? How about over 80? 100? You'll find that money a faction can make levels off prior to hitting that special 50 for the most part, either due to player inability or refusal to pay. I'm not saying that larger factions should pay less (my setup makes them pay more) I'm just saying that they shouldn't pay such an insanely massive amount of money simply because they're good at recruiting and keeping players - kinda defeats the entire purpose of factions, right?

MonMarty said:
How do you define a faction as a faction of quality?
  • Good PVPers?
  • Good Bulders?
  • Large Factions?
  • Factions with a functional governance?
  • Factions who have giant alliances?
  • Factions with a high resource output?
I personally believe a good faction, is a faction where all the members are having fun, while not having fun at the expense of other players, while also maintaining a good participation of the community in general.
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Hmmm. A faction of Quality huh? Well, I believe that a truly great faction should cater to the desires of all of its members, within reason and ability of the faction to do so. To that end, I believe that larger faction with a high resource outpost, skilled PvP community, stable and functional government, and skilled architects and roleplayers is without any doubt the best possible way to give players an enjoyable experience. I do not disagree that people can enjoy themselves in small, poorly designed and managed factions, but... do you really think that its better for the community to have everyone working as individuals?

MonMarty said:
By this definition, the gross majority of factions in existence, does not meet the bill of a "good" faction in my eyes, that includes most of your subsidiary factions of the Hisokian collective. Ultimately it's the big factions owners that are the most vocal about wanting the server staff to force new players to join factions before making their own. Funnily enough, I think this actually exposes the very reason and problem of factions. Either these faction leaders are already aware, or don't want to face the reality that their factions are not attractive places to be for new players, either due to the huge distrust that is aimed towards them, the pure exploitation by throwing noobs into slave villages, or by generally disregarding them as newbies who don't have a say in matters.
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By your definition MassiveCraft itself would make a rather poor faction, don't you think? Where is the enjoyment without expense here? Roleplayers can enjoy themselves - if they like Regalia or don't mind raids. PvPers can enjoy themselves - within strict rules set by the server. You want this server to be a quality server do you not? But by your definition that means solely that everyone should be happy as individuals, which MassiveCraft fails to achieve (and goes against your earlier argument putting the community above the individual).

Also, I would be careful saying that factions that are larger "are not attractive places to be for new players" since these factions work very hard to recruit and retain new players. Here's a list of the things I've done in order to make my faction (not just Raeth, I've done this for all of my factions), a more "noob"-friendly place:
  • Build Houses - I have either built houses myself or paid for a number of houses to be constructed so that people who want a house instantly (for free!) can get one.
  • Purchased 2 chunks of Warzone - so that PvPers and hopefuls could trait, duel, and otherwise enjoy themselves without needing to raid another faction and risk everything just to get some skill.
  • Build a Tutorial - So that people willing to read it (not all of them lol) are able to jump headfirst into any aspect of MassiveCraft without needing to learn through deaths, bans, mutes, or shunning that you just can't do certain things right away.
  • Low Taxes - Raeth's tax is 1r daily. That's the equivalent of about 3 mobs per player (since not all mobs drop regals) and there's no penalty for not paying, its entirely a "if you can do so" system. Even I pay my 1r.
  • Secured my /f home - multiple times, actually. I've worked hard to give my members the ability to get to a safe meeting place in the case of raids.
  • Provide Resources - I either go gather stuff myself or encourage members to gather resources themselves and add them to the Warehouse. This supply base then allows them to decorate their homes, or build them.
  • Pay Hefty Tributes - I do not pay tributes that are obnoxious, but within reason I will surrender if my members feel that it would be the best option for Raeth the follow.
  • Provide Utilities - like Mines, Darkroom(s), Farms, Logging Camps, Water Sources, Enchantment Tables, Anvils, Workbenches, and Furnaces.
  • Listen - I try to listen to my members desires and requests and complaints and problems as often as I can, though sometimes I am not able to do so (like when in PvP or busy helping another player already).
So, MonMarty, before you have the arrogance to say that we big faction owners know that our factions aren't welcoming to new members, realize that we big faction owners need to keep our members, otherwise we cannot grow or improve upon what we have created. It is not as simple or easy as "throwing noobs into slave villages" because that simply isn't practical for a growing faction.

MonMarty said:
This more than anything loses the server players, the friends element is the strongest when people join the server, and the ability to be able to set up my own faction with my friends is the only reason why I stayed. We want players to have immediate entry quality gameplay, not have to slave away to someone who already has thousands of Regals just to scrap by some junk to hopefully set up their own faction in 2 months by the time the rest of their friends have already given up due to lack of immediate progress.
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I do not disagree - being able to work and live with friends is a great way to enjoy the server. I only came to Massive because a friend of mine (ThomasOverMany) invited me here and I joined the faction he helped run. The fact that he was here definitely made it easier to get addicted to MassiveCraft - but if I had never met anyone other than him, I would have swiftly grown bored with this server and left it for someplace more interesting. The very act of meeting people like Bbgunn99, Pidog10, Lizman1000, AaronChuey, Epicsause342, Shayin, Wannag, Waminer, Todd178, Bjoan, Spectec, even Jquaile, Thor, and Bsavs, is what kept me active and keeps me interested. If I had lived alone I would have never stayed on MassiveCraft, and I can assure you the same is correct for the vast majority of players. Friends are nice, but you can meet them anywhere - new friends are what keeps people around.
 
Also, MonMarty, I am not refusing to see your point of view here. I do understand where you are coming from (more or less) with regards to factions that can't pay taxes not deserving to exist - but I don't agree that they deserve no real warning or panic time to prepare for their destruction. I don't know where you get the whole "slave village" thing from though, since I have yet to see a successful slave village outside of pure roleplay with willing participants.
 
I've attempted to create a good opening point for further elaboration, as they are based on actual research as opposed to just assembled speculations. I don't appreciate being attacked however, so I will step out of this topic of conversation now.
 
@MonMarty there are no intentional attacks on you in my statement. Disagreements, oh mother of pearl yes, but no attacks on you as a person, player, or admin. If you consider something to be an attack please do point it out so that I can apologize for the perceived attack on your person and then we can move on with this argument.

Also, please do not belittle my opinion just because its supported by 2 years 9 months of experience on MassiveCraft rather than the research you preformed. And if you are able, could post this research of yours so I know where you're getting your statements from?
 
Mecharic said:
@MonMarty there are no intentional attacks on you in my statement. Disagreements, oh mother of pearl yes, but no attacks on you as a person, player, or admin. If you consider something to be an attack please do point it out so that I can apologize for the perceived attack on your person and then we can move on with this argument.

Also, please do not belittle my opinion just because its supported by 2 years 9 months of experience on MassiveCraft rather than the research you preformed. And if you are able, could post this research of yours so I know where you're getting your statements from?
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Alright since you're asking for another reply I'll do so.

Formally, I stepped out of the topic because you called me arrogant for labeling "big faction owners" a certain way. You asked me to reply to your thread some days ago, I could not. You then reminded me again, and I decided to sit down for about an hour to read your replies thoroughly, think about it, read the other replies and ask around a bit, then type out my own response. I took an hour out of my time that I normally spend either looking for a better way to achieve residency in my current country due to the fact that I'm being thrown out of my native country, work on Jorrhildr map (which aside from the Bo2 team I am working on alone), Regalia V3 which is immediately necessary and must be deadlined before the release of 1.8, managing the Lore and World staff, aside from my usual activities as Direction staff member, houseman, cook and artist who needs to create funding to payback the college debt I have. Despite this, you still have the belief that I ignored your opinion and just waltzed over it. You are attacking me, rather than the foundation of the argument. This is ad hominem argumentation that results in very unrewarding debate on the matter, as it doesn't actually ground the opposing sides in factual constructions. To make it furthermore hilarious, you then go on the server, complain some about my choice of actions in faction chat, and further propagate the belief that I am some sort of tyrannical controller that runs MassiveCraft solo to your faction members, which frankly, just amounts to slander. Don't give me this whole "I don't mean to offend" nonsense, I've known you 2 and a half years now. Which is fine really, we're both straightforward people, but I don't want to spend unnecessary time having to explain to you every process that I went trough to come to my conclusion because you insist on continuing to believe the nonsense banned players say about me.

Now to get back to my reasoning for decision taking:
  1. You are personally invested in the matter as you are at a loss, or at a gain based on any changes made to the taxes. This means your opinion is decreased in value compared to someone who is not. This is a basic principle of the staff's anti corruption minimalism plan. We never label anyone as "biased" we simply say we "diminish the chances of bias" without pointing fingers. This has nothing to do with you as a person, it's simply a safety mechanism. For example, we disabled the opinions of Thorodax and Thortuna when an executive decision with regards to faction wars was made that would directly affect their factions.
  2. If your time assumption made any sense, you've only been on the server 1 month longer than me. By saying you feel your opinion should be considered more so because you have been on the server for that time, you're making an unethical combination of time present, and validity of opinion. In the MassiveCraft staff, the business principle of "You can Bullshit your way to the top, but it won't keep you there" holds true, time present on the server or word of mouth hold no relation to the validity of a person's statements or opinions, the merit of their actions are the only indicator. By imposing an arbitrary limit on the value of a person's input based on their presence in the system, you're bringing in conservatism, which kills progress. We've suffered trough severe periods with this when Igel_son and Firesoap were still in position for example as they resisted progressive change because they felt their opinions were somehow still relevant even though both were only on the server for an hour a week, and Firesoap had a lengthy record with going absolutely bonkers with faction flags on his own factions.
  3. You assume that because I am staff, I cannot possibly have a good assessment on the matter. You're forgetting or simply not knowing that I have owned 3 factions, Hakeyama, St. Lebedeva and the most recent Helegen which admittedly ended in complete failure. Additionally I have held strong leadership positions in Osai, Auxillian, Darnassia, Mithrilm, and have held minor positions in many, many other factions over the 2 and half year time span. This means my perspective is much wider than your Hisokan collective. Additionally, I have direct access to many other faction owners within the staff and supportive members, insights into the Hisokian collective even trough Shayin and in lesser part Cruallassar when he was still in the RP staff. Additionally, I am a staff member. This means I get to see (or suffer, depending on your interpretation) the woes of lows and highs of players and their actions in the factions system, both on the forum, server, in reports, help tickets and general fits that anyone might have. I have access to direct staff statistics when it comes to faction disbandment, average over claim percentages (god bless awesomelawson) and further tools that we use to form our opinions. It's fine if you don't accept these as valid points to support the idea that I'm better informed than you are on the matter, but it should at least convince that we're on equal footing, at the very least. Note the belief that I think that I'm more informed doesn't come from the idea that I just have these things thrown in my lap. I actually spend dedicated time to research, not just reading the reports handed to me by other staff, the hours spent theorizing with Cayorion, but also the proactive research I have done myself by simply looking around at our assets and observing events over time.
All in all, what this means, is that I most definitely considered your opinions and statements at fullest. At the worst I decided that they were devalued by potential personal bias and unethical conduct of thought, at best I simply overturned them because I considered the positions taken from the excessive research done that the decisions we've taken are backed by sound arguments which have yet to be toppled.

There still isn't a valid argument in favor of delay of execution. The way I see it is as followed:
  1. I eat 1 bread a day.
  2. I currently have 10 breads.
  3. By simple math I know I'm going to run out of bread in 10 days.
  4. This is my warning, and I have 10 days to make some extra bread or I'm going to die on the 10th day.
There is no argument in favor of a delay of execution because the mechanic itself presents a warning if people have the ability to do basic 4th grade math or can type "/F tax faction" and read the results. The tools implemented in game literally tell you when your faction is going to expire, which is a warning. This completely slaps any defense you've brought up in favor of the concept out of the water.
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Note further, there is no real argument in favor of a once daily tax system either. It's a case of "this one isn't better, but this one doesn't present a clear advantage over the other". The daily system was implemented because it was easier to code, and less prone to error from a technical point of view. Even if there isn't a clear gameplay increase in value, there certainly is a technological advantage. If this is the casus, then we have to consider the costs of alteration if it was even worth considering. There is no reason why we should spend an extra week overturning the system when it works, and has no clear disadvantage compared to the new suggestion.
 
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@MonMarty - I can do nothing but apologize for my statements on MassiveCraft, as they were both unneeded and downright immature on my part. As for my comment calling you arrogant, that was in response to what I sincerely though (and think) was a fairly arrogant statement about large faction owners (namely that we know/are in denial of our factions being unfriendly to new members) and while I admit I could have worded it (much) better, I do not think that you are entirely unfaulted there. So I do apologize for directing my statement against you, but hold that the statement you made was in and of itself arrogant and/or inaccurate.

You do not need to reply to this thread anymore if you wish not to.
 
The statement (about the big factions) was left vaguely wide with the intention of not pointing fingers, I'm simply not making this opinion based on hot air. That doesn't accuse anyone directly, it merely suggests that it is a serious problem, and it exists.

I personally don't predict much problems either way, People who have no frieds on the server will unlikely make their own faction, it seems more appropriate in their situation to join bigger factions. If they don't, they usually will probably end up making a faction and either disappear after a while or be absorbed into bigger factions. I have peace with the thought that if anything seriously starts going wrong, we can make U turns where necessary. We have MassiveStats available, no other server publicizes these details as openly for people to interpret, so if anything is seriously going to start wrong, we can anticipate it.

I do really get where you are coming from, it's not like you're trying to ruin our plans, but you do really care about the server, and I honestly appreciate that. Having said that, I simply cannot agree to the majority of your suggestions.

The one that is however up for discussion is the tribute rule. What I suggested before, a minimum membership necessary before wars may be declares is probably going to get implemented, but I did some further research into the logic behind faction income generation. Strictly speaking, it is true that bigger factions can generate more income, when looking solely at their members.

Take Mithril for example: Mithril is a large, very large faction. It's taxes are high, but proportionally, they have no problem paying for them because their officers pay much higher taxes than their members, and their officers take the burden of taxes mostly on themselves to alleviate the smaller members. I pay 10 Regals a day for example, while the faction tax is between 2 to 4 regals a day.

The problem that this however generates is class differences in the faction. What I see strongly in Mithril is resentment from the "paying class" towards the non productive class who pays just a small amount of tax. The reason why I bring taxes up in this, is because Taxes is a way for Mithril to pay for its surrender terms. (they haven't surrendered yet) But it has been made apparent that if Mithril loses a war, the taxes will be hiked, resulting in higher tax costs across the board. This will exasperate the class difference within factions, and we don't want to facilitate that with one of our regulations. Thus, in order to alleviate the cost, we could discuss making a flat rate tax, or a decreasing amount.

Lets lock this thread and continue in the actual thread regarding faction tributes you made.
 
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