Massivecraft: No Longer Democracy?

ChrisVenom

The Venomous
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Hello, Chris here, first off, the title is in no way whatsoever meant to be insulting, it's just my idea of attracting people to take some time to read this thread. Additionally, this thread is not a complaint, nor an argument, just an attempt to push the server forwards, opposed to backwards.

MassiveCraft. The server that we love, the server that we are acknowledged more than just minecraft players, but an active, solid community. MassiveCraft 2013. The year has almost come to an end. They year has probably been the biggest step forward as a server. RP Events, Sharding, Wars, Tournaments and much more ... But ... So many negative things, so many ...

Bans; why? So many banned, some justified, not looked into. I think staff underestimate the power of /ban. So many people have been completely erased from our community. I as a remaining player of MassiveCraft, have been banned, just for 1 day luckily, being banned doesn't bother me really, so I was calm and found other things to do ... But... The reason, in my opinion, was pathetic; "troll raiding". What comes under troll raiding in my eyes? Killing for no reason, raiding without any wishes but the agony of your enemies, causing havoc despite the fact they wish to surrender. I, did not even proceed to do any of these things, but these days: "dat guy kill3d me and d1dnt return m4h items" would get a guy banned; without a word with both sides. What I wish to get through to people is that people shouldn't just be booted away. Allow some negotiation or talk with both sides, isn't that what you ask us players to do while raiding? In a real world, would people just be erased out of existence? No. Wish to know what I think would be best. Get rid of bans. People should only be banned if their presence endangers the safety or stability of the server. My new punishments are the following:-

- Mute - people should honestly take caution of what they say, this should be ok.

- Jail - people use exploits, should be put in a PLUGIN PROTECTED area, people should be given time to reflect.

- Solitary Confinement - people who have been jailed but abuse their actual privilege to speak should be solitary confined, muted and jailed.

Removal and Server Changes: I'm sure you, as staff have experienced players criticising your updates. They have the right to complain if they are gone for a hour, come back and they don't realise or have had a say on the future of the server.
Suggestions:-
Before you change something that may anger players, you should have a poll made in advance, for people to vote: a YES
NO
DON'T CARE

Note: Responding don't care would be a vote to the staffs favour.

Also, polls like this may only be held by staff.

MCMMO & Items: Fishing, God Apples are the main ones, both nerfed or disabled. Why? Yes, fishing was over powered in some way, but work and effort was put into it, it was an unlockable for those who cared to spend time training it. Well, it wasn't necessary to remove fishing as like before, we will have a diamond shortage, or what ever. Fishing needs to be fun ... Even those who work for MINECRAFT agreed, thus them having added treasures in 1.7.1. Ok, it's clear staff seem to dislike fishing, but disabling it isn't a first option. I would say: don't give people to fish for treasures for hours, or days, have a cool down, saying: "after fishing for a long time, your hands start to ache, you encourage yourself not to fish for: _ _ _ _" or, add a negative overtime for fishing for treasures. Also, I know you clearly say you are not responsible for the items we buy, fine, why don't we say we are not responsible for that "ugly" house that we griefed for items. ( I'm just providing examples ). With the rumours about God Apples, yes people want them, so do I, but at the same time, PVP is slow and laggy now, ( this isn't a complaint, please don't make hits stronger or something ) adding God Apples will turn that "munchers" world into halt. Add a negative, I suggest, make it so that you can only eat 5 god apples, in 30 minutes. A role play excuse would be the high rush of blood makes you sick each time. To back this up, nausea should be added to the 2nd God Apple eaten in 30 mins. ( 2nd god apple = nausea 1---------3rd god apple = nausea 2 ) and so on. In general, please look for a fair majority of our thoughts on the updates you plan to do.

Entertainment: I only play on Massive when there are people I can interact with, although Quest are being added which is a big upgrade. This section will remain empty for now.


I have written an awful lot but have not expressed anything near a quarter of what I have to say. But I may have lost you on the first paragraph, so I will stop for you to reflect on my thoughts ( not suggestions ... YET ).

So to all forum staff, I request you not to move this into suggestions as it is just a discussion for most.

Thank you, I will continue soon, but for now: discuss away!!!!
 
Er, did I miss the time when it was a democracy?

Staff have to make unpopular decisions to keep the server alive, and good. No one is going to be completely happy, but some will be more satisfied than others. But I have never seen a time when it was a democracy, and that's how it shall stay, I'd imagine.

The thing is, the players don't always make good decisions for themselves, and the staff are here to look at the big picture. We're all like little children, focused on immediate satisfaction. You eat the candy, and then you die of heart disease.
 
This is more of an oligarchy - a council of people(staff) who deal with the server. If you want to get technical, then you could say that it is a monarchy since, ultimately, Cayorion gets the final say as it is his server.

However, please think about the people that got banned. If they get banned, it is usually for a good reason. And if it isn't a good reason, then you can always make a ban appeal for it, and well-formatted ban appeals will probably give you a better impression and chance of getting unbanned. I'm going to share the story of my older permanent ban because I "advertised" without knowing of an exception. If this is against the rules, you may remove this post.

I was on vacation in California, and we were just chilling in our suite. Being it our fourth day on the road, I decided to burn an hour by checking in on MassiveCraft because this was the first place where we had complimentary Wi-Fi. Upon logging in, however, I was greeted with the message that I had been banned by BigBellyBuddah for advertising.

I tried to recall what possibilities that I could've been banned for, and I recounted one where I sent an IP to my private build server to two friends in Direct chat. I decided to write a ban appeal to hopefully get unbanned. In a few days of my ban appeal, BigBellyBuddah apologized and unbanned me from the server. How did this happen? Because I most likely structured my appeal perfectly and made a good impression on the staff that were deciding for it, which may or may not have somewhat influenced their vote.

It proves that probably even somebody like FreckleDew or TaxConsumption could get unbanned if he apologized, acted in a mature way, and simply took the time to write a proper appeal, making sure that everything is correct and neat.

To end this off, I personally just want to say that this is not, has not, and never will be a democracy or anything close to what you want. It might be possible for a republic, which it is very close to already, but not a true democracy, as that will kill off any government or structure that anybody will ever live in or use.

Also, think about how much time the staff is limited to, and if they had to reconsider all of the possible mistakes they made, then they really would not get any - I repeat any - work done.
 

  1. Ähm if you want a true democracy then the Forums are NOT something you can use for that. Considering that a very large part of all players who play on massivecraft don´t use the forums. A only a small part would vote for things and decisions.
  2. I would rather have my opinion overruled then have things decided by majority votes. Seriously imagine if anything could be changed via majority vote. Any group that is below 50% of the server population would then be pretty much bound to get screwed over. For example I bet most non prems would vote for removal/nerfing of prem features etc, or RP/PVP-factions of the server would try to set the changes that they want, completely disregarding the other side. In other words it would be not as nice as you may think. Not to mention all the alts that people have would (not could, would) be abused as additional voting power .
  3. Now this has been expressed better in the previous posts already so I will only briefly cover it. Bans aren´t so bad. If the person who got banned really cares about playing here they can in most cases apologize make a good ban appeal and have a chance (50%?1%?97%?potatoe%?) to get unbanned and play again. It sorts out those who disturb the server enviroment and do not really want to play/contribute here (note: Yes I know that there are plenty of exceptions, there almost allways are).
 
Taxy was never banned...he left of his own accord, then sold his account to Farria.
 
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I think the fishing ideas and god apple ideas were really good and well thought out. Basically, Chris says "Everything is good in moderation." which a lot of people do not get when they are thinking of ideas. Nonetheless, there should be a pole for both of these ideas run by a team member or MonMarty to show statistics on what the me and other players want.
 
Taxy was never banned...he left of his own accord, then sold his account to Farria.


Actually he was banned, he came on the forum and threw some heavy verbal abuse at the server staff. He then sold the account to Farria828 who managed to get it unbanned by proving her sole and full power over it.
 
Also, have you seen MonMarty's forum title? "Corrupt Tyrannical Overlord of MassiveCraft" - that's definitely a democratic title right there! (j/k, I luv you Mon :P)
 
Do we really want *everyone* to have a say? Even people who don't know what they're on about?

Democracy Timeline
Day 1: Traders realise they lost income. Petition for MassiveArmour is accepted and comes back.
Day 4: PvPers get bored. Players with MassiveArmour, usually veterans, dominate PvP.
Day 5: Worse PvPers petition for a Hunger Games world with no MassiveArmour. It is accepted and begins to be built in priority, ahead of new worlds.
Day 8: Players complain due to new worlds being delayed. Some staff leave due to work overload and pressure of satisfying everyone.
Day 9: Hunger Games server is rushed, and so are new worlds. More people complain. More staff and players leave.
Day 10: Some noobs try to buy diamond armour from various traders. Not only are these traders banned for scamming (albeit them making the conscious choice to buy the armour), diamond armour leaves.
Day 11: Premium PvPers stop paying as they get diamond armour anyways. Server restarts begin again.
Day 12: Someone complains about the restarts. Cayorion and other staff use personal funds to upkeep the costs of running the server alone.
Day 17: Staff cannot afford to upkeep the server. Any suggestions to make premium more appealing are complained against. Cayorion is bankrupt. Collapse of Massivecraft.
 
If people get banned, go make a ban appeal. If that doesn't work, send a message to a staff member. If that doesn't work, you probably deserved to be banned. You have to realize that this is a big server, with a lot of work needing to be done constantly. Staff can't sit for a few hours listening to two people whine. If you're banned, make an appeal. That's what they're for.|-(
 
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner. The moral and functional superiority of democracy on the internet as a method of managament is an illusion :V

A morally conscientious Oligarchy or Directory to weigh in a compremise to every decision is a much more favorable solution, and also stops the minorities in democracies from constantly getting screwed over by the majority.
 
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner. The moral and functional superiority of democracy on the internet as a method of managament is an illusion :V

A morally conscientious Oligarchy or Directory to weigh in a compremise to every decision is a much more favorable solution, and also stops the minorities in democracies from constantly getting screwed over by the majority.


Very true, however the proverb absolute power corrupts absolutely is still as true today then it was when it was made, and 5000 years before that. Barely anyone in history with absolute power has not been corrupted by it. When the world becomes pocket god it becomes harder and harder to resist flicking just one little pygmy into a volcano. While I do think that the staff on this server are fine and probably some of the best staff on any server, I just disagree with this point. As I believe that a edited constitutional monarchy is the best policy which is in fact reminiscent of this server.
 
I think we should all decide its a MonMartyatorship. And the server is doing as is. Theres good RP what else could you ask for??
 
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried" (Winston Churchill 1874 - 1965)
 
I guess I wasn't clear, but I don't mean an absolute democracy where we can suggest extremes. And it has to be within server power, infact, I did state this. What I mean, is that we should be able to have our opinions known, for example, almost every role play suggestion is approved of, but combat is commonly neglected.
 
Massive has never been a democracy. It's not hard to recognize.
 
Democracy in the real world works mainly on the principle of having a large populace of people who can be polled, so laws/lawmakers can be placed so that the organization it heads goes in the general direction that the people want. Even in this, people are tossed under the tires for having a dissenting opinion, just broad enough that it becomes "acceptable".

Massive craft doesn't have the raw numbers to support a proper democracy.
 
I guess I wasn't clear, but I don't mean an absolute democracy where we can suggest extremes. And it has to be within server power, infact, I did state this. What I mean, is that we should be able to have our opinions known, for example, almost every role play suggestion is approved of, but combat is commonly neglected.

Just want to say... why does combat deserve to be looked at? You have every map besides Regalia under your rule, the limits on warfare are minimal (most people don't even have an RP reason anymore), and the general skill level of a pvper v/s an rper is massive v/s minimal. PvP already has loads of advantages (from Premium Perks to the simple fact that RP can't actually kill anyone) so why does it need more? I think it's only fair that the server focus on RP for a little, and it's not like they never plan to look at PvP again you know. They can't do everything at the same time so they have to pick and choose, and right now they've chosen RP.
 
Just want to say... why does combat deserve to be looked at? You have every map besides Regalia under your rule, the limits on warfare are minimal (most people don't even have an RP reason anymore), and the general skill level of a pvper v/s an rper is massive v/s minimal. PvP already has loads of advantages (from Premium Perks to the simple fact that RP can't actually kill anyone) so why does it need more? I think it's only fair that the server focus on RP for a little, and it's not like they never plan to look at PvP again you know. They can't do everything at the same time so they have to pick and choose, and right now they've chosen RP.

This is the point. PvPers want RPers to be able to PvP as much as others. PvP isn't interesting if you don't have anyone to fight, just as much as RP isn't fun if you have no one to RP with.
 
This is the point. PvPers want RPers to be able to PvP as much as others. PvP isn't interesting if you don't have anyone to fight, just as much as RP isn't fun if you have no one to RP with.

They have each other? PvPer <3 PvPer :P

But seriously... at least 50% of the population likes pvp to some degree, can they really not find pvpers amongst themselves?
 
On this subject I have one thing to say; effort- allow me to expand on that if you are confused, a democracy is an effort I cba others cba but mon merty can be bothered, so let's just leave all the important stuff up to him, he has the drive for it and the right attitude, so what if sometimes you disagree there are millions of faction servers and the reason this one is so good is because the staff are proactive. If every human in massivecraft was perfect you'd expect the server to be perfect, but there will always be issues, nobody has the same definition as each other for perfection. So the server cannot be perfect for everyone, so enjoy it for what it is, a fun faction role play based server.

Hello, Chris here, first off, the title is in no way whatsoever meant to be insulting, it's just my idea of attracting people to take some time to read this thread. Additionally, this thread is not a complaint, nor an argument, just an attempt to push the server forwards, opposed to backwards.

MassiveCraft. The server that we love, the server that we are acknowledged more than just minecraft players, but an active, solid community. MassiveCraft 2013. The year has almost come to an end. They year has probably been the biggest step forward as a server. RP Events, Sharding, Wars, Tournaments and much more ... But ... So many negative things, so many ...

Bans; why? So many banned, some justified, not looked into. I think staff underestimate the power of /ban. So many people have been completely erased from our community. I as a remaining player of MassiveCraft, have been banned, just for 1 day luckily, being banned doesn't bother me really, so I was calm and found other things to do ... But... The reason, in my opinion, was pathetic; "troll raiding". What comes under troll raiding in my eyes? Killing for no reason, raiding without any wishes but the agony of your enemies, causing havoc despite the fact they wish to surrender. I, did not even proceed to do any of these things, but these days: "dat guy kill3d me and d1dnt return m4h items" would get a guy banned; without a word with both sides. What I wish to get through to people is that people shouldn't just be booted away. Allow some negotiation or talk with both sides, isn't that what you ask us players to do while raiding? In a real world, would people just be erased out of existence? No. Wish to know what I think would be best. Get rid of bans. People should only be banned if their presence endangers the safety or stability of the server. My new punishments are the following:-

- Mute - people should honestly take caution of what they say, this should be ok.

- Jail - people use exploits, should be put in a PLUGIN PROTECTED area, people should be given time to reflect.

- Solitary Confinement - people who have been jailed but abuse their actual privilege to speak should be solitary confined, muted and jailed.

Removal and Server Changes: I'm sure you, as staff have experienced players criticising your updates. They have the right to complain if they are gone for a hour, come back and they don't realise or have had a say on the future of the server.
Suggestions:-
Before you change something that may anger players, you should have a poll made in advance, for people to vote: a YES
NO
DON'T CARE

Note: Responding don't care would be a vote to the staffs favour.

Also, polls like this may only be held by staff.

MCMMO & Items: Fishing, God Apples are the main ones, both nerfed or disabled. Why? Yes, fishing was over powered in some way, but work and effort was put into it, it was an unlockable for those who cared to spend time training it. Well, it wasn't necessary to remove fishing as like before, we will have a diamond shortage, or what ever. Fishing needs to be fun ... Even those who work for MINECRAFT agreed, thus them having added treasures in 1.7.1. Ok, it's clear staff seem to dislike fishing, but disabling it isn't a first option. I would say: don't give people to fish for treasures for hours, or days, have a cool down, saying: "after fishing for a long time, your hands start to ache, you encourage yourself not to fish for: _ _ _ _" or, add a negative overtime for fishing for treasures. Also, I know you clearly say you are not responsible for the items we buy, fine, why don't we say we are not responsible for that "ugly" house that we griefed for items. ( I'm just providing examples ). With the rumours about God Apples, yes people want them, so do I, but at the same time, PVP is slow and laggy now, ( this isn't a complaint, please don't make hits stronger or something ) adding God Apples will turn that "munchers" world into halt. Add a negative, I suggest, make it so that you can only eat 5 god apples, in 30 minutes. A role play excuse would be the high rush of blood makes you sick each time. To back this up, nausea should be added to the 2nd God Apple eaten in 30 mins. ( 2nd god apple = nausea 1---------3rd god apple = nausea 2 ) and so on. In general, please look for a fair majority of our thoughts on the updates you plan to do.

Entertainment: I only play on Massive when there are people I can interact with, although Quest are being added which is a big upgrade. This section will remain empty for now.


I have written an awful lot but have not expressed anything near a quarter of what I have to say. But I may have lost you on the first paragraph, so I will stop for you to reflect on my thoughts ( not suggestions ... YET ).

So to all forum staff, I request you not to move this into suggestions as it is just a discussion for most.

Thank you, I will continue soon, but for now: discuss away!!!!
 
You know you can´t really use any forms of state on a server since a server cannot be compared to a state. In a state everyone finances the state with his/her taxes and owns a part of that state (in a sense) and should therefore have a call in what is happening with it.

I think it is more (but not completely) compareable with a Store.
We (the players of the server) are basicly the Customers or Clients (altough playing here is free, one of the reasons I said that it is not completly compareable) while Cayorion is ultimately the Owner and is providing a Service with massivecraft (also the one who has to pay for it).
The staff are basicly the employees (altough the staff don´t get paid and are not allowed to make money here) of the owner and have , depending on their rank a certain level of authority and power.

Now how much sense would it make that the Customers who are enjoying a FREE service are allowed to decide what the Store does? Can you go in a bike store with some friends and then decide via democracy that it should change to a restaurant? (I could elaborate further here but I think I made my point.)

Note: These are all statements of how I see things and how I guess it is. In reality it could be something entirely diferent, if so please state so and if possible proof it.
 
If people get banned, go make a ban appeal. If that doesn't work, send a message to a staff member. If that doesn't work, you probably deserved to be banned. You have to realize that this is a big server, with a lot of work needing to be done constantly. Staff can't sit for a few hours listening to two people whine. If you're banned, make an appeal. That's what they're for.|-(

I learned from my own ban that getting frustrated and throwing out that frustration toward others isn't very healthy, wise or logical at times. Confrontation in anger is not appealing to staff, especially when 3/4 of people were given more than their fair chances to straighten up their act have reverted to doing the same misdeeds they did to get banned for in the first place.

I think people deserve a second chance mind you, but when they keep demonstrating acts of corruption, then a foot has to be firmly stomped to say it isn't right what the person is doing and they must be shown that their acts are not going unpunished. To bring up that it's even politically related is bias and incorrect. Staff are here to balance out the server from people who feel they are above the rules of everyone else, and thus, should be respected for the effort they put in to make this a better server for everyone.