Archived Lowering Tax Back To 1r/10chunks

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Zacatero

Zacatero

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I don't think this needs a whole lot of fluff, I read on another suggestion that somebody had brought this up and I think it deserves its own thread. I believe one reason the tax was added was because there were so many large factions with just a few people that had an enormous amount of land.. so I guess the actual suggestion would be if there was a way to tax it dynamically, like it's 1r per 10 chunks until... 300 or something. Then 1r for 5 after that.

So if u have 400 chunks for example your tax would be 50. That's 30r for thr first 300 then 20r (2r per 10) for the last 100 since its over 300.

And if it's impossible to do that Dynamic tax situation, then I guess the suggestion is just to lower the tax back to what it was.

One of the reasons I think the market isn't doing too well is because people are constantly having to save all of their Regals for tax and it's stunting the economy a little bit
 
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215r base for free, before you get to tier 2 job island jobs.

That's 1075 chunks you can currently pay for 100% with one person doing next to nothing. I don't think lowering taxes is really necessary.
 
Since I have no numerical data to base anything on, I'd like to ask a question for the factions that have these large upkeeps daily.

It's been a few months since pack isle has been released. My own time on the island has seen me go through an entire 3 tiers of a smithing job, and I'm current on tier 2 of armorsmith. all tiers produce the same regal yield, so you're best bang for the buck is a tier 3 job, which yields 25 regals per time, giving you 75r daily from pack isle along.

voting gives you 10r per vote. assuming a few broken links, let's say only 14 of the 17 work. that's an additional 140r daily, not counting the regal lottery which gives you at least 5r more every other day.

coincidentally @jes_ basically just gave a TL;DR for this above while I was typing.

So my question is: If you can get 195r per person daily, and these larger factions should have more than one active person on daily, why is a ~200r tax too large to maintain?
 
But if you can't make massive your main priority, and you're only on a couple times a week, it's hard to maintain a larger faction, even if u have a lot of active members.
 
Because that money is better spend in the economy
 
Also people do anything to pay less taxes to their faction
 
What do you guys think about a potential Dynamic faction tax I proposed in the original post
 
Zacatero said:
What do you guys think about a potential Dynamic faction tax I proposed in the original post
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Given I'm a tightwad with regals and it would make my faction upkeep 2r daily, I'd be for it. But I'm also heavily biased since I have enough regals to pay for faction upkeep until the day I die plus some more.

I also utilize all the materials in my vault before I buy anything from the market, and would rather collect materials in the wilds. I also don't pvp, so there's a fortune of regals not spent on god gear (which i usually just salvage and get the diamonds from anyways)
 
Less money spent on taxes means more money in the economy (more money you can spend) which means more things bought which means more things sold which means more things made. That means more people selling art, or more people selling buildings and making cool structures you want.

There is a reason why places with higher taxes look worse than places with lower taxes.
 
Something like this would likely not be a priority or set high enough to warrant coding. Empires is being coded. Tax would probably just be lowered if anything.

But I have two alt factions plus my main one and just from voting I make enough to support all three on my own. Not really a necessity imo. With player tax for the faction it is easily substainable. 10 minutes a day.
 
While I think a progressive tax would be interesting, making the massive factions really work for their large swathes of land, lowering them in general would likely have little to no impact on the general economy. Lowering faction prices, though, would certainly change things...
 
Enderdonut said:
Sure, you can argue that two people can easily pay for all of that, but in reality, no one really cares enough to go to PackIsle and vote. Its just work that no one enjoys in the slightest. The fundamental flaw with taxes is that its just a huge money sink with no real fun impact. More like on of those "no this stupid shit again" mechanics that no one likes. Making it super high like how it is doesn't really help it either.
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What part of making money is supposed to be enjoyable? Things do not come for free, even in the real world. Even if you dont vote or do pack isle or sell stuff at the market, it is feasible to stabilize a faction purely off of player tax. If I got off my lazy butt and recruited more, I wouldnt even have to worry about depositing into NorthWatch.

Initially I was against the tax raise, but doesnt really register as an issue to me anymore because I have grown accustomed to it and adjusted.

I guess I would be curious to hear other Faction game staff opinions on this. Tokuu, Sevak, and Darkwatch would be the other best three as they also own their own factions.
 
Kaezir said:
Initially I was against the tax raise, but doesnt really register as an issue to me anymore because I have grown accustomed to it and adjusted.
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Oddly enough, i was in favor of the raise at first and now have recently flipped.

Kaezir said:
I guess I would be curious to hear other Faction game staff opinions on this. Tokuu, Sevak, and Darkwatch would be the other best three as they also own their own factions.
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I tagged them in my OP, but they mightve scrolled past it.. (@Tokuu @Sevak @Darkwatch01)

Kaezir said:
What part of making money is supposed to be enjoyable? Things do not come for free, even in the real world. Even if you dont vote or do pack isle or sell stuff at the market, it is feasible to stabilize a faction purely off of player tax. If I got off my lazy butt and recruited more, I wouldnt even have to worry about depositing into NorthWatch.
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But taxes feel less like a background thing and more like a "i need to do something every day or risk falling behind. It was never, and still shouldnt be, the main thing you need money for.
 
Zacatero said:
But taxes feel less like a background thing and more like a "i need to do something every day or risk falling behind. It was never, and still shouldnt be, the main thing you need money for.
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I look at it like this. A house in Regalia averages for 300r a month. The house is about the size of a chunk. The renter can only decorate the inside and cant place essentials like chests. Nor do they get access to the rest of the chunk above or below. So the renter pays 1r a a day for bare minimal space with lack of necessities in a one chunk space.

2r isnt that big of a leap.
 
Kaezir said:
2r isnt that big of a leap.
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It doesnt matter the size of the faction, doubling the tax means you now have to spend twice as much only on tax. Now for smaller factions, that doesnt mean much different. but as @Enderdonut said, factions with larger claims are now feeling constricted.. like they cant do anything because everthing MUST go to taxes.

Kaezir said:
I look at it like this. A house in Regalia averages for 300r a month. The house is about the size of a chunk. The renter can only decorate the inside and cant place essentials like chests. Nor do they get access to the rest of the chunk above or below. So the renter pays 1r a a day for bare minimal space with lack of necessities in a one chunk space.
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I feel like this seems like a good comparison but so many things differ between a regalian home and a faction. Aside from the fact that a regalian home you could rent for 2 years today and not log in for those 2 years and still have claim to that house, that is of course given that the house isnt demolished while the world staff make a new district, which you could compare to your faction getting unclaimed and restored.

Random midnight ramblings aside...

You can always make the argument that "Oh maybe if you cant afford it then you shouldnt have a faction" but for a staffbase and server as a whole that still outright refuses to hear any suggestion about making it harder to start a faction on the grounds that some players arent prepared to lead in their first week, and should join an active faction first... its difficult to understand, at the same time, that a higher upkeep makes sense.

Basically, both "We want new players to be able to start a faction within a week, regardless of experience" and "Lets make upkeep harder" are existing at the same time. And its not like Massive is running low on available land right now...

So my question now is, how would it hurt the server to lower the tax back to 1r/10 chunks?
 
Enderdonut said:
And I shouldn't be playing a game to work, I should be playing to have fun. Having it be the other way around is just bad game design by default.


2r a day is a massive leap for large factions like Asteria and Tyberia. I think your underestimating the power of doubling.
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Ive never played a game that didnt make me work for the good stuff. MMO's make you grind and grind for gear, FPS's make you level for gear, etc etc. There are plenty of games that are made so you dont have to work to enjoy but it all depends on genre.

But I am not underestimating the doubling. NorthWatch had over 1k land and 90 members before the faction reset. We were paying almost 600r a day. But factions like us, Tyberia, Asteria continue to recruit to pay and stay active.
 
Zacatero said:
Mindlessly recruiting any and all random players that join isnt for everybody. You have to give permissions to these people and a lot of factions prefer a little vetting.
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I am aware. I am not a fan of the style as the faction itself hasn't progressed at all for the last month or two. Mindless is a good word.

I'm just saying in my experience, NorthWatch has never expanded more than what it could support with player tax. Why are factions recruiting and expanding to such a degree that they later lose the motivation to retain?
 
I'm personally not against how tax is right now, though that is more of a personal stance since between all members of Solarian we have 300k+. However, our tax has recently increased by around 200%, and we actually lose money every day if two people don't give up their entire earnings to the faction bank.

However, due to the way we're able to tax our members (daily tax + WC tarrifs imposed, @Kaezir loves this one) this is actually still incredibly sustainable. I think people just need more creative ways of getting people to deposit money into their banks, and worry less about personal wealth gains when trying to grow a faction. I've personally pledged over 50k worth of regals and resources to our current project, and whilst a lot of others can't do that to such an extent, owning a faction isn't supposed to be something which comes easily, and that's what people seem to have forgotten. A faction is supposed to take up time, manpower, and money. Having things gifted to you on a silver plate takes away, I think, most of the fun from owning a faction.

However. (And this is a big one). If we were to reduce the tax, what would stop the initial factions price from increasing again? Players would still have to work for their faction, just work for creating it instead of maintaining it. The only stumbling block I can see with this is that many people are much more inclined to keep playing if their own their own spot of land than if they're living and working on someone else's.

Just my two cents @Zacatero
 
Tokuu said:
I'm personally not against how tax is right now, though that is more of a personal stance since between all members of Solarian we have 300k+. However, our tax has recently increased by around 200%, and we actually lose money every day if two people don't give up their entire earnings to the faction bank.

However, due to the way we're able to tax our members (daily tax + WC tarrifs imposed, @Kaezir loves this one) this is actually still incredibly sustainable. I think people just need more creative ways of getting people to deposit money into their banks, and worry less about personal wealth gains when trying to grow a faction. I've personally pledged over 50k worth of regals and resources to our current project, and whilst a lot of others can't do that to such an extent, owning a faction isn't supposed to be something which comes easily, and that's what people seem to have forgotten. A faction is supposed to take up time, manpower, and money. Having things gifted to you on a silver plate takes away, I think, most of the fun from owning a faction.

However. (And this is a big one). If we were to reduce the tax, what would stop the initial factions price from increasing again? Players would still have to work for their faction, just work for creating it instead of maintaining it. The only stumbling block I can see with this is that many people are much more inclined to keep playing if their own their own spot of land than if they're living and working on someone else's.

Just my two cents @Zacatero
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I agree with the last part. I'd love to see taxes brought back down to the old amount, but only if the initial faction cost is increased heavily
 
boys i need people to be able to buy my art ok? i dont know what sorta economic crash we had, but everyone who used to be able to buy things from me, can't even afford their own rent

Screenshot_787.png ​
 
VanCeryneia said:
boys i need people to be able to buy my art ok? i dont know what sorta economic crash we had, but everyone who used to be able to buy things from me, can't even afford their own rent
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This is actually a good point. I feel like the issue with doubling taxes is, while it did take regals out of the economy, it canceled out by just making people not want to buy anything.
 
Raise factions cost to 3-5k to create, then lower taxes to 1r per 10 chunks. Factions should be an achievement, not a one day thing to gather the regals. And I agree with the fact that the higher taxes stunted the economy. Back when it was 1r per 10, you'd see lots of sales and auctions going on in trade chat, and a much more active marketplace, but now its quite empty on both counts.
 
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