Kitpvp Traits & Kits- Should Staff Disable Certain Traits In Kitpvp? (vote After Reading Please)

Discussion in 'Feature & Idea Discussion - Archive' started by LanternArchon, May 2, 2015.

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Should massivecraft disable flywater in kitpvp?

  1. Yes

    37.0%
  2. No

    63.0%
  1. LanternArchon

    LanternArchon

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    As most of you know at this point, kitpvp has been becoming ever so popular, with many people trying it every day. It just seems that recently, it has evolved into a game of "Chase the non-premium people with flywater" around. Flywater may be a realistic part of coastline battles, but it is not improving the pvp skills of either of the parties involved, the flyers or the chasers. Traits have been removed from kitpvp before this, with a stiff punishment for the offenders who use it (Stealstrike and Stealrevenge). These traits were removed because they detract from the enjoyment of kitpvp, so I ask, why is flywater still enabled?

    (This is meant to start a discussion, not to be critical of my terribly written thread)
     
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    #1 LanternArchon, May 2, 2015
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
  2. TheSilverSpectre

    TheSilverSpectre No, I will not do that for a Klondike bar.

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    because, for a lot of people, flywater gives them a much needed escape route
     
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  3. krios41

    krios41 Privjet

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    There is an easy solution to your problem with flywater
    don't go in the water
     
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  4. LanternArchon

    LanternArchon

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    As stated by Kadeb, their escape route is the water, the rest of the time they are jumping out of the water and hitting you from behind then running back into the water where, if you fall in they cluster and depthstrike you until you leave the water and the cycle begins again. As of now, the only ways to get rid of a severe flywater infestation is getting several people with flwater as well, or cutting them off on land. Both of which are time consuming and not necessary.
     
    #4 LanternArchon, May 2, 2015
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
  5. krios41

    krios41 Privjet

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    so, just because i rp i'm not allowd to say something on this topic that is very logical?
    no thank you ser. I'm a stuborn person and will voice my opinion whenever i feel like it.
    not to mention i also happen to use kitPVP for fun and get a taste of PVP.
     
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  6. starkiller_117

    starkiller_117 Celestin Albain Deodat, local rodent.
    1. ~*~[A]~*~ Academy and Du Sablon Family Announcements ~*~[A]~*~

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    Feelings are summed up pretty simply. There's a late enough area to the map where you can almost avoid the wanted entirely, so I see no reason to complain. Steal strike was taking money from money during a minigame, something its not intented to do while fly water still functions as it intends to.

    Overall, your points seem minor and I see no reason to remove the trait.
     
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  7. Lord_Aza

    Lord_Aza The voice of truth
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    If the staff intended to not have this as a part of the game, perhaps they wouldn't have made a terrain with that much water?
    Also, it is a part of a premade trait build so.. I think FlyWater is here to stay.
     
  8. rw45431

    rw45431 The Psycho of Ravensong

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    Flywater as an escape rout is a valid strategy, I'll give it that. However, using flywater to hit you quickly after escaping in and of itself isn't bad. Its like the Speed trait with a speed potion on land, but watered down. First of all, flywater being used to kill someone isn't unfair, it's taking advantage of the environment in combination with traits. If you're trying to tp to a spawnpoint in a pvp area, thats a bad idea, especially when it takes time to tp to a spawnpoint and you never know when/if someone is going to sneak up on you unless you're absolutely alone. Honestly, if you want to deal with the flywater people, either don't go in the water in the first place, just let them escape, it shows they're afraid of you, or pull out your bow. Shoot a bit ahead of them, they'll run right into your arrow. Not only that, but flywater doesn't activate immediately when you jump into the water, you need to double tap space first, just like in creative, giving you time to shoot them/hit them when they're in the water before they can attempt to escape. Pvp experience outside kitpvp shouldn't effect it much, especially since regular pvp or other pvp mini-games are usually much different than kitpvp whether it be the player having different enchants, having to start from scratch, different traits than massive has, different races with the race plugin, whatever they could possibly have, its almost guaranteed that it won't be the same. Even the maps won't be the same. If you want to enhance your pvp skill, you would come up with strategies to combat the flywater, not complain about it on the forums without even trying. When you have a problem, you don't try to completely remove the problem that may be benefiting others, you try to come up with a counter-strategy.
     
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    #8 rw45431, May 2, 2015
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
  9. Spookmas

    Spookmas Aggressively Friendly
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    Remove Flywater Plz
     
  10. Spookmas

    Spookmas Aggressively Friendly
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    There is No Way to Counter Flywater Unless you use it and its annoying
     
  11. rw45431

    rw45431 The Psycho of Ravensong

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    Actually flywater wouldn't be very difficult to counter, whether, as I stated, you let them run or shoot, or use the fact that it has a downside of the double-tapping space, which if you have to rise in the water, it wouldn't be hard to lose the speed by accidentally double-tapping. If you go above a certain level you also still lose the speed. The fact that you have to stay within a certain area for flywater to even be useable is a downside in and of itself, and if they have an entire area that is water specifically, I would imagine it would be intended to be used there. If you use it it wouldn't be that bad, it'd be the exact same thing as flying around in creative and trying to hit a moving entity, which really isn't hard. Especially since if two people going at it are both using flywater, the playing field would be level again because you're both going the exact same speed unless one screws up which both people are equally likely to do. If you can't figure out a way to counter something and dismiss it as impossible to counter, then you aren't going to get anywhere. Strategics is similar to math in the sense that you have to work for an answer. If you don't work to figure out how to get rid of your problem, then you'll get nowhere, and you'll end up in an endless cycle of frustration. The only difference between water pvp and land pvp is you can drown in water, and its possible to get under the opponent. Drowning is counterable with traits, the other both people can do anyway, making it just as fair as trying to sneak up behind someone. If you can't do it because you're unwilling to do it or you just can't comprehend how this simple logical statement could work, then just avoid the water. Its not like its everywhere.
     
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  12. Jackmo_Jones

    Jackmo_Jones He's the Ripper, Jack the Ripper.

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    This.

    Also add ender pearls.
     
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  13. Spookmas

    Spookmas Aggressively Friendly
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    Go try to kill Someone with Flywater in kit pvp its nearly Inpossible They Are so fast and if you actually land some hits they can get away instantly and they dont even have to double tap space they can just sink underwater and it will automatically Engage So i Agree With @GildedArrow it needs to be Remove from KitPvP or Disabled And no you cant shoot them because their SO Fast its inpossible to hit them
     
  14. rw45431

    rw45431 The Psycho of Ravensong

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    Again, as I already stated If you use flywater as well, you'll still be going the exact same speed that they are completely eliminating that disadvantage. The creative flight speed is only approximately 15 blocks/per sec, so honestly it shouldn't be that hard to shoot if you know how to pvp with a bow. even myself, with the small amount of non-minigame experience with minecraft bows, can do that with about a 75-80% accuracy. If you shoot in front of their current path, they'll be going at such a high speed that they'll run directly into the arrow that you shot, so long as it was far enough ahead. of their path. The fact that the people with flywater can get away easily means that the same goes for you so long as you're using it as well. If you're really having trouble with that, it'd be simple just to train with your mcmmo or training your shooting with someone somewhere else in creative mode. So long as you have sounds enabled you'll always know when you hit,and as long as the person isn't coming from, depending on the depth you're in in the water, above/below you or directly behind you, it'd be easy to see where they're coming from and prepare for that. Or you could just do the simple option and avoid the people using flywater in the water.
     
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  15. Oxoman

    Oxoman Astronaut, Reverend and Millionaire Playboy
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    I might be being an idiot. But don't arrows have different physics underwater. I.E. slower.
     
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  16. Spookmas

    Spookmas Aggressively Friendly
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    Well the PvPers dont Use Flywater because its a waste of trait points
     
  17. Kidmodo

    Kidmodo Slave of Raptum

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    I would like to chip in my 2 cents if anyone cares to hear it.

    First off when people say there is a counter strategy to flywater I would like you to find it because everyone who eats, breaths, and bleeds pvp on this server would LOVE to know what it is. Because I remember fighting with @BlackMerc and @Aespair about a week ago in the water and we just looked like a bunch of idiots flaying are axes around since no damage was ever passed between anyone. Since people who understand flywater know that when they are getting hit they simply hold shift and *poof* magically no more damage is being done to you while you fly away under your enemy's feet. Also if you feel like adding waterbreathing then you can stay down there all you want and never have to fear dying EVER!

    Also @rw45431 when you say someone might "fly" out of the water and lose their speed or what ever the hek you called it is also just not a good reason why Fly Water is not OP. Because when if they do fly out (very very rare) then they are vulnerable for about a good 1.5 seconds
    which at most you can get 2 hits off dealing a total damage of 1-2 hearts at most. Then they simply go on their marry way and heal back the hearts while you have to continue another long and boring chase which no one ever dies and the reason for that as you so evidently said was that they were going the exact same speed meaning no one can possibly catch up.

    And for the people that say Stunstrike would counter FlyWater well you are wrong once again because back when I was in the Mithril - Raptum war I remember being hit with a stunstrike every now and then while I was using flywater and guess what? I kept on flying like a cruiser in the US Navy.

    So simply to say there are no counter traits to FlyWater expect to put on flywater which doesnt actually counter it, it more or less makes the pvp just that much boring and drawn out. And if I remember correctly the whole point of the Kit thing was to bring a enjoyable experience to fighting not have half the community flying around shooting arrows and never dying all due to one trait that over powers all the rest.
     
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    #17 Kidmodo, May 2, 2015
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
  18. rw45431

    rw45431 The Psycho of Ravensong

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    If it were a waste of trait points then people wouldn't be using it as much as they are and this thread wouldn't exist. However people are using it, and if you were using it then you wouldn't have to worry about this problem. Correct me if I'm wrong, but last time checked flywater is only 50 or 100 points, which there are plenty of the negative ones that don't necessarily effect pvp that you could be using to counter that.
    That is true, however the change only begins to happen gradually as the arrow progresses through the water. Charge the bow up completely, aim a little bit ahead, and so long as they aren't deeper than 10 blocks you should be fine with hitting them. However underwater/mixed landscape pvp is different, as you still have to adapt to these differences. In water arrow physics may be slower, but they can still hit and if they're close enough to the surface for you to see it wouldn't be slowed down all that much. If they couldn't hit them with the arrows I would hope the person would have common sense enough to get away from the water so as to lead the person out only to be able to shoot them easier that way.
     
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  19. Spookmas

    Spookmas Aggressively Friendly
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    The Non PvPers Use it because they dont know what traits to use while pvping so they choose annoying ones such as Flywater Jump Boost Poison Strike etc
     
  20. Jackmo_Jones

    Jackmo_Jones He's the Ripper, Jack the Ripper.

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    Forcing people to use a certain trait destroys the whole purpose of classes and takes away the variety of PvP.

    Seriously why are people so afraid to play on land? You lose 1r on death and that's it. It's nothing! You'll never get better if you ride such a cruch and all you're gonna do is make it so people don't wanna play kit anymore.
     
  21. Kidmodo

    Kidmodo Slave of Raptum

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    Yes please for the love of the lord and savior ChinChin we must have are pearls.
     
  22. Th3_Drunk_Monk

    Th3_Drunk_Monk Regalian Burgher

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    From what ive read aside form the "omg rp'r get out part" it seems that people are disliking a trait because its doing what its intended to do?
    FlyWater as we know is great for hit and runs , which is exactly what its bieng used for. If you dont want to get taken down by such a tactic use a lil bit of strategic placement and move your fight from the waters edge, eventually they are going to either disengage the fight completly or be forced to fight you on land where you have greater advantage due to your trait choices.

    Considering we wont be removing flywater from survival world pvp i see no reason to take it away from kitpvp where people want to test out potential skills they can use outside of kitpvp.

    End of the day you just need to judge your oppenents way of fighting and think of a way to disarm or counteract it, i mean if its getting you frustrated enough to come make a post id say their tactic is working as they are alive and youre left writing threads. Unfortunatly as annoying as it can be this fighting style can be a way to fend off an enemy and increase your survivability.

    (also yes we know enderpearls are wanted be patient <3)
     
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  23. LanternArchon

    LanternArchon

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    *Steals back thread* @rw45431 You are right in saying they can be hit, and they can, With A Bow and if you want to do enough damage to actually kill someone with a bow you need to be a Qadir with heavy damage traits, which means..... you die in 2 hits. As @Dragonn already stated, full on water effectiveness traits, like waterbreathing and depthstrike require a great deal of trait points, and without those trait points, It is virtually impossible to kill somebody while heavily using Flywater. Due to the great amount of people playing these days, most land pvpers's trait builds have the ability to receive a great amount of damage, and deal a respectable amount. In the end, all flywater does in kitpvp is make a gigantic flame war, and a bunch of angry people going on Maiar hate campaigns.

    @Th3_Drunk_Monk My argument is not that "Flywater is stupid and all strategies that involve it are stupid" but that it discourages Normal PvP, as well as the fact that flywater is much more heavily used in kitpvp then it is in other survival worlds, to an extremely high level. All massivecraft pvp tourney's last time I checked were not held in the middle of the ocean; if that is what you want all the new players to think massive pvp is playing around in a pool, go right ahead. But most pvp these days are held in buildings and alleys these days, so I ask, why are we holding on to flywater because it is realistic? Kitpvp is designed to provide people with the experience they need to pvp one day. So why are we teaching them to be fish?

    Addend: If we really wish to accomplish something, I recommend we start with small steps, for example, removing flywater from all the non-premium builds, to stop the people who don't know how to use traits from over-using it, therefore helping balance the system by giving them a Choice if they want to be a fish.
     
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  24. Kidmodo

    Kidmodo Slave of Raptum

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    Now I agree with you when you say that if you don't like the water don't go near it but the problem is the way the map is, its almost impossible to avoid the water and even more difficult to avoid the archers/ fireballers that sit in said water. And I don't know about all PvPers but I personally hate fighting on hills/mountains (which is a majority of the map) due to not being able to strafe and who ever is on bottom just smacks the living day lights out of the person on top. Which is why we resort to flat areas of the map and the biggest flat land is the one being by the bridge (north of spawn) and you guessed it the water, then the second most known one is the little island (west of the spawn) which again is by water. Now their is another semi patch of flat land around the strength 1 alter (far west of spawn) but that is so remote the only time I have ever seen anyone there is when me and spectec fought on the first day of the release (and to further demonstrate that I just stood in that spot for about 7mins while 3-4 people where out and I wasn't hit or killed).

    Now FlyWater is a strategy but like @GildedArrow says it discourages actual pvp and they don't learn how to fight which I thought was the whole point of KitPvP but now days its just trolls running around and ticking off people that are trying to actually fight and expand their skills.

    (and thank you for the enderpearls. Please dont be angry with me for this post <3)
     
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    #24 Kidmodo, May 2, 2015
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
  25. LanternArchon

    LanternArchon

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    Guys, Can we all remove all "Read the subject again's"? I want this to be an honest debate/discussion about flywater and the negative ratings are hurting that. I am sorry @krios41 for rating you posts negatively, Lazz has told me you really care about ratings. I will remove all pro-flywater negative ratings, and I hope everyone else does too. Only agree ratings from now on guys. (Thank you)
     
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  26. LanternArchon

    LanternArchon

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    Stop the flame! Hurry! before Jamescl sees! Keep the thread together guys! Back to flywater! So, what do you think about the latest developments @Th3_Drunk_Monk @krios41 ?
     
  27. 65jes89

    65jes89 Leader of SunKiss
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    Tbh, I don't think you know what you're talking about. No offense. I have been in multiple chases using flywater that have lasted well over 30 minutes, as it is pretty much impossible to catch someone using flywater, as is it impossible to lose someone using flywater. Of course, this applies mostly to the survival worlds, as there is significantly less water at kitpvp. This being said, the effect is still nealry the same. Anyone using flywater s pretty much invulnerable, as it is nearly impossible to kill or be killed using flywater, due to the 3d battlefield, extreme speeds, and fact that anyone using flywater is generally an archer just running away. Imo, flywater, especially combined with archers, ruins the experience of kit pvp. Personally I would like to see archer removed completely, but as that is unlikely to happen, this is a satisfactory solution.
     
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  28. TheSilverSpectre

    TheSilverSpectre No, I will not do that for a Klondike bar.

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    speed does effect your water speed, and not every class has depthsrtider, which also increase fly speed
     
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  29. TheSilverSpectre

    TheSilverSpectre No, I will not do that for a Klondike bar.

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    isn't the point of the trait system to make it a very unique pvp system, unseen on any other server?
     
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  30. Kidmodo

    Kidmodo Slave of Raptum

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    You are right but when I was doing some testing the speed2 doesn't help all that much.

    I did a run using speed2 and one without any speed over a course of 5 seconds and the total block distance between the two trials was about 15 blocks which isn't all that much considering how small the kit pvp course is and as long as non-prems throw on at least speed1 they can still easily outrun anyone else using Flywater. Regardless of what buff they are using.
     
    #30 Kidmodo, May 2, 2015
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
  31. LanternArchon

    LanternArchon

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    According to the massivecraft website, "MassiveTraits is a unique plugin available only on MassiveCraft. It allows you to customize your character by adding traits of your choice that suit your play style. There are over a billion possible character builds." @kadeb54 is right that it is a different setup than any other server, and uniqueness is a big part of it's function; but these changes we are proposing will Not affect customization ability in survial worlds. I only speak for myself, but I know that an appreciable decrease of people using kitpvp would be good enough for the moment. Once the idea is firmly accepted within the public mindset, we can work our changes more efficiently. It is unlikely the staff will implement our ideas, but the least we can do is change what normal massivecrafter's think about Flywater to help us make bigger changes down the road about it..
     
  32. Th3_Drunk_Monk

    Th3_Drunk_Monk Regalian Burgher

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    Youre right kitpvp is designed to provide experience they need to pvp one day, including ocean attack strategies, flywater is regualrly used in pvp? Its hardly a rarity. KitFarahd is also a desert, hardly an ocean, the landmass greatly surpasses the amount of water in the map albiet rather hilly and uneven but keep in mind that our survival maps are not flat land masses, need to keep people on thier toes when fighting in the wilderness aswell as towns and alleys as you say.

    I personally feel kitpvp is a great map in general as it forces players to adapt to overcome and gain victory, no battlefield will be catered to your liking unless your on the defense most of the time. Tournaments are hardly a good example of random pvp brawls when youll have terrain changes,number changes and trait variations out in the wilderness. if a player chooses to stick with traits thats really down to them. if they dont want to use it the traits can be removed and switched out whenever they want to. Its moreso a matter of people want to use it.

    End of the day if people want to use a trait they like, who are we to say no? it may ruffle a few feathers of more seasoned fighters but its not like you can expect a fair fight in an open free for all battlefield. (Duels/smaller group fights are a great idea though and is noted)

    Obviously i take into account the opinions of our regular fighters (if i didnt qoute you or directly reply doesnt mean i havent read , you have been noticed @DemonicDagger , @65jes89 ,@kadeb54 @anyone else i missed) and obviously ill do what i can to take this into account on furthur developments to KitPvp.

    I dont get angry with people its chill, everyones entitled to thier input <3
    Though i am gunna do a clean up of posts not related to the topic as i too want this to stay clean and on topic
     
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  33. TheSilverSpectre

    TheSilverSpectre No, I will not do that for a Klondike bar.

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    here is an exemplary example of how we should view it, as an experience we can always learn from, this is why massive is one of the most popular non minigame servers their ever was
     
  34. 65jes89

    65jes89 Leader of SunKiss
    1. -={The Great Kingdom of SunKiss}=-

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    Ok, sorry, but no massive is not. There are many, many non-mini game servers which are significantly more popular than massive.
     
  35. TheSilverSpectre

    TheSilverSpectre No, I will not do that for a Klondike bar.

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    let me rephrase, one of the most popular rp servers out their
     
  36. LanternArchon

    LanternArchon

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    *Slow Clap* I realize I am out manned and outgunned in this matter. But I will fight on!

    If you look at kitpvp from above, you will notice that it is in the shape of a basin, with the spawn in the middle with a considerable amount of water surrounding it. As @Th3_Drunk_Monk said, the map is mostly land, about 6/7 of the total land mass being not in water. What Th3_Monk did not mention was that Nearly all kitpvp fights happen right in front of spawn, an area surrounded on 2 sides by water, with a bridge linking it to a nearby thin peninsula. When you go forward from spawn, you are thrown onto a small depression, near the water, and you are quickly shot at by several archers with Flywater. As you attempt to chase them, a maiar swordsmen appears from the deep and slashes at your legs. When you turn to try and hit him, he is gone and you are being hit several times in the back by their archers. You give up and try to head farther inland to tp back to spawn, while receiving a constant barrage of fire from the archers. Once you are a good 40 blocks from the nearest water source, you tp back to spawn, until it starts again.

    Suggested changes
    1. Make the water sources interspersed throughout the map, or flip the current design of the map; "Make the water near the outside"
    2. Make the lakes one to three blocks deep preferably to give flywater users a more accurate experience/ appreciable debuff
    3. Block off the main spawn, have the only way out being the spawn signs to the W.I.P ballon system. (Most of them are Land-locked)
    4.Remove flywater entirely for kitpvp (Had to put that in)

    5. Make flywater worth enough trait points so it actually matches it's usefulness.
     

    Attached Files:

    • Agree Agree x 2
    #36 LanternArchon, May 3, 2015
    Last edited: May 3, 2015
  37. Knyxo

    Knyxo Refugee

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    Flywater should cost like 100 trait points in my opinion. It's too good for 50 points. Too easy to use it as well as keep several other good traits with it's current cost.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  38. Jackmo_Jones

    Jackmo_Jones He's the Ripper, Jack the Ripper.

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    This.

    Seriously this would not only help kit but also survival PvP as well.

    Full support on this idea.
     
  39. krios41

    krios41 Privjet

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    isn't 100 a litle too much?
    i think 75 points would be good enough too.
     
  40. Jackmo_Jones

    Jackmo_Jones He's the Ripper, Jack the Ripper.

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    Fireballs are 100 and they provide nowhere near the advantage that Flywater does. Healthboost 2 is 100 and I would say even that doesn't give you the advantage that flywater does.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2

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