Is The United States A Force For Good In The World?

Discussion in 'General' started by Zanip, Nov 1, 2014.

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Is the USA a force for good in the world?

Poll closed Nov 8, 2014.
  1. Yes, the US is a force for good in the world

    7 vote(s)
    36.8%
  2. No, the USA has gone too far

    12 vote(s)
    63.2%
  1. Zanip

    Zanip Swag Cannon

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    Hello everyone!

    So today in General there was a pretty heated debate for around 30 minutes in which MassiveCraft debated the US's policies, and whether it was a force for "good" in the world. Keeping in mind the fact that in Minecraft, a debate in General would not only pollute the screen and bring hundreds of haters of both sides, but also make the argument ridiculously stupid because of the amount of text you can actually place. So we decided to bring it to the forums.

    Subjects like the USA's donation of arms to Israel which are being used to bomb hundreds, and the view of the general public towards certain ethnicities, which could be considered racist, were addressed, as well as more long-term events, like the Iraq War and Vietnam War, as well as the tension that was created by its participation in the Cold War.

    Here's a non-bias video which relates to the matter in a pretty direct way:



    So, what's your opinion?

    Is the USA (in particular, its foreign policy) a force for good? Or is it just a powerhouse which keeps the greatest military in the world to bomb innocents and invade nations which have done it no harm?

    PS: pls dun rage, i wan dis to be civilized kthx
     
    #1 Zanip, Nov 1, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2014
  2. Party_Penguin27

    Party_Penguin27 exactly 43.5 various checkbooks

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    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH WOO GO USA WOOOOO


    I hate my country kill me now plz
     
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  3. Jamtrav

    Jamtrav Hamtrav

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    I can see stereotypes and bias remarks coming...
    But if this does involve the War on Terror(WoT), don't forgot U.K. and few other countries(preferably ones who are part of NATO that agreed to helping) are in Afghanistan too.
     
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  4. Suzzie

    Suzzie [loading......]

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    Being American, I might be a bit biased, but I'll give this a shot.
    We've had both good moments and bad, but we are more in the middle.
    There have been wars we've gotten into that can be avoided, and yes, we get involved with so many things we shouldn't, earning us the title or the global police or something of that sort.
    I believe that yes, we might get involved with too many of the wrong things, and not enough of the right things, but we haven't gone too far.
    Don't forget, we have done good as well as bad.
    [-to put in events later as I remember a few but not the exact details-]​
     
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  5. Zanip

    Zanip Swag Cannon

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    The war in Afghanistan can't be considered bad... NATO and other nations there aren't fighting the Afghans, they're fighting the Taliban, which has been one of the largest terrorist organizations for ages... What's really in dispute is where the USA has gone or led a large force into a nation which has done it no harm... For example, Vietnam, where the USA attacked to quote-in-quote stop the spread of communism.
     
  6. Zanip

    Zanip Swag Cannon

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    Fair enough... I think this is a pretty logical view.
     
  7. Jamtrav

    Jamtrav Hamtrav

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    The Vietnam war was started by paranoid thoughts, I can agree with you there, but people make crude remarks about the U.S. because we're in Afghanistan quote on quote "Killing civilians" when it's actually I.E.Ds (Improvised Explosive Device) to be blamed for the deaths.
     
    #7 Jamtrav, Nov 1, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2014
  8. Zanip

    Zanip Swag Cannon

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    To be honest, I support the USA's presence in Afghanistan, since they are fighting the Taliban and saving more Afghan lives than they are killing.

    What I really don't support is the USA's exports of weapons to Israel, that are being used in the Strip of Gaza.

    A few months ago, Israel killed 100 innocent children in Palestine in the form of the bombing of a school. These people were killed using American weapons, and the American Republican party has stated that they want to increase arms exports and continue to support Israel. (I'm not saying Obama is any better, although in my personal view he could deal with the crisis more effectively and in a more peaceful manner.)
     
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    #8 Zanip, Nov 1, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2014
  9. Laach

    Laach I'm not wearing a scouter.

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    From what I hear, before Obama came into office, war was one of the things he wanted to prevent. As history tells us, the things that parties often criticize the other party of doing wrong, they end up doing themselves while in office. Being president and having other people like you is harder than you think. That, and the house of Representatives is sort of like that group that says "Do what we want or suffer the consequences."
    I mean, look at how well our internal government problems have been going recently. There obviously must be some form of corruption going on.
    America's current state, in my opinion, is similar to someone with depression trying to make another person with cancer feel better. Their radioactive negativity ends up slipping through, making matters far more worse than they were before.
    America is a good state, but we are in a situation where we can't make good decisions without accidentally making unpredictable mistakes along the way.
     
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    #9 Laach, Nov 1, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2014
  10. Beetletoes

    Beetletoes Regalian Emperor

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    Yeah, we aren't global police, or anything, but someone has to take out a terrorist organization, or it may grow too strong, and I, for one, don't want WWIII anytime soon, or at all, for that matter.
     
  11. Zanip

    Zanip Swag Cannon

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    The fact that the US is helping out the Afghan government and people along with NATO and EU powers is certainly honorable, but how is indirectly killing hundreds of innocent children in the Gaza Strip "preventing WWIII"?
     
  12. Mecharic

    Mecharic I'm tempermental, deal with it.
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    There are a number of problems with asking "Is the US Good or Bad for the world". The first is simple and blunt: the Taliban thinks we've evil, but I bet the British don't. Other issues is that we get blaimed no matter what we do. We stay out of something "You should have intervened and saved lives!" we get involved "You're killing innocent civilians!". There are no good options left for the US.

    Throw a corrupt and inept government into the mix and you're basically screwing all sides over.
     
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  13. Mecharic

    Mecharic I'm tempermental, deal with it.
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    1) You're a peaceful nation minding your own business when <Insert Imperialistic Nation Here> attacks you with the intent to destroy your government, culture, and independence. What do you do? Let them kill your people and enslave your descendents?
    2) You're a single father with 3 children. Some people break into your house with the intent to murder you and your children "just because". Are you to blame for the situation? Are you evil if you end up killing one or more of the criminals while protecting your children and yourself?
    3) Christianity caused the Crusades. One of the big excuses for Imperialism was "to bring Christianity to all peoples". The Vatican sided with Nazi Germany during WW2 and helped mass-murderers escape trial after WW2 ended. Christians killed loads of people because of their religion or because "they were witches". Jesus was Jewish.
    4) Gandhi died and his dream failed - India broke into Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India rather than remaining a single massive nation like he'd wanted. As good a person as he was, Gandhi was not realistic.

    Let's keep ourselves in the realm of "reality" and "possible" rather than spewing bullshit about utopia, shall we?

    (I have NO patience for utopians)(sorry for killing ze thread, but it must be said)
     
    #13 Mecharic, Nov 2, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2014
  14. OldManJ98

    OldManJ98 I Like Boxes
    1. -=[ Talosia]=-

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    I am sorry, but you are a massive hypocrite.

    First, you support the United States and its ALLIES for attempting to take out a terrorist organization that poses a threat to the nation.

    Then, you condemn the United States for assisting our ALLY to rid itself of a terrorist organization.

    Israel is not randomly attacking civilians and children like you believe. They are using strategic bombing to strike military outpost of the terrorist organization "Hamas." The Gaza Strip was originally created as the Jewish regime in Israel's attempt to find peace between the Jews and Palestinians. They created Gaza and the West Bank as territories within Israel for Arab populations to live. This compromise was made to give the Jews the homeland they fought and suffered for without kicking the already inhabiting people out of Israel.

    Trouble came up when the Arab populations, not the Jews, began to fight against the government. Now, in order to defend themselves, the Jews are being pinned as the bad guys. Just so you know as well, before every strike, the government of Israel flies over targets before a strike, and lets people in the area know about the incoming missles. They only want to destroy the military outposts.

    TL;DR: USA is helping allies in Israel defend themselves against terrorists. Same thing as NATO in Afghanistan.
     
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  15. favoured

    favoured Pink Fluffy Unicorn

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    ....Wut? I don't really understand what you just said, but I suppose I'll have a go at debating it.
    1) This isn't about the modern age, this is about philosophy in general. You said that war is always wrong. Now you're stating that it's fine for a nation to "take over all they want". You're trying to make Might makes right and Pacifism go together. It doesn't work like that.
    2)Once again, you're contradicting yourself. You said before that "anyone that tries to kill another person is EVIL no matter what the case" Now you state that killing a murderer is not wrong.
    3) You said that past actions don't define you, yet you base your argument on people in the past such as Jesus and Gandhi?
    4)Soooo, you just dismissed someone else's argument for no apparent reason and insulted him. Cool.
     
  16. Beetletoes

    Beetletoes Regalian Emperor

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    Yeah, I suppose you're right. Time for me to reconsider something unrelated to this thread.
     
  17. Party_Penguin27

    Party_Penguin27 exactly 43.5 various checkbooks

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    SO MUCH FLAME

    *flails wildly*
     
  18. Beetletoes

    Beetletoes Regalian Emperor

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    You are right about not killing. I agree, mostly. I think that if someone you care for is in danger, and the only thing you can do is fight, think about it. If there really is no other option, only fight if your actions are fully justified.
     
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  19. Laach

    Laach I'm not wearing a scouter.

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    It was more like a double agent thing when they sided with Germany. They only did it to protect themselves, and to avoid suspicion when they started creating sanctuaries for Jewish refugees. Because when you put it in perspective, what else are you supposed to do when you're surrounded and you have nothing to defend yourselves with? There's a reason why the pope of that era is currently considered a saint. His actions, after being heavily debated, ended up saving more lives than if he had gone against the Germans.

    The witch trials spurred on from a puritanical minded society, not christian. Also that happened before WWII so you got that out of chronological order.

    And the whole Jewish thing was purely for scapegoating. They were easy targets for an already despairing country. It doesn't matter if Jesus was Jewish. The idea had already been planted in everyone's mind that the Jews were to blame, and all Hitler had to do was fan those flames while riding on his special air balloon.
     
    #19 Laach, Nov 2, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2014
  20. Laach

    Laach I'm not wearing a scouter.

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    Soldiers only enforce the orders, they don't create them.
    And peer pressure.
    And drafting.
    And betrayal=death/eternal shame.
    Etc.
     
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  21. Jamtrav

    Jamtrav Hamtrav

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    Thank you for saying my brother is stupid and looks stupid. I'm sure alot of people will be happy about you saying one of their family members who served look and are stupid. I'm sure a few people will be a bit upset
     
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    #21 Jamtrav, Nov 2, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2014
  22. Zanip

    Zanip Swag Cannon

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    I'd recommend you read the original post again, it clearly states the current crisis which is occurring in the Gaza Strip. Also, read the thread title if you haven't already.
    To make this clear: I support the US and its allies fighting the Taliban. This is due to the fact that not many innocent people are being killed - only terrorists, with precise airstrikes and well-trained ground forces that are assisting the local people.

    I never condemned the US for assisting Israel to rid itself of Hamas, I condemned the US for supplying weapons to Israel. Have you taken a look at the statistics?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    If the city you live in is taken over by a terrorist organization, you don't try and fight back - You would probably die in the attempt. And in the years that Hamas has controlled Palestine, support has only grown for them. People are actually beginning to like them.

    Not only this, but you call Hamas a "terrorist organization" and so I have quoted it myself as such... But over two-thirds of the world have recognized it as a sovereign nation.

    [​IMG]

    Despite all these statistics which show Israel (using American weapons, with American guarantees and financial support) clearly killing 5 times more innocent people and 15 times more innocent children than Hamas, you continue to claim the US is doing right? Are you aware that Hamas has proposed a relatively peaceful ceasefire, and it has been Israel that has broken the truces proposed? Is the US going to continue with its silly "we don't negotiate with terrorists" policy?
     
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  23. R_O_B_E_rt

    R_O_B_E_rt Proud orthodox

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    I'm just going to leave my opinion here.

    [​IMG]
     
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  24. Dworvin

    Dworvin Dwarf Elder Dworvin of Ulldin

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    Cu does on all that.......................research.
     
  25. Mecharic

    Mecharic I'm tempermental, deal with it.
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    So, I'm going to attempt to reply to this rather incoherent post of yours...

    1) I'm not even sure what you're saying here.

    2) While I do agree that murder should not be the first choice someone makes, I also think that there are always going to circumstances where intentional murder is the only option for someone in order to protect themselves and their loved ones. Does that mean its a good thing? No. But it can be necessary.

    3) Yes, most of the churches flaws have been corrected, but it is still FAR from perfect. Its general stance on homosexuality is downright insulting to everyone who likes people of the same gender. The way it deals with sexual crime committed by its priests... disappointing, to be frank. The way religious people treat non-religious people is also infuriating to no end.

    4) "Bend or Break under pressure." Interesting way of putting that. Reminds me of how Gandhi died because he wasn't willing to accept reality. If refusing to "bend or break" means I'm going to end up dead than I'd much rather bend and live than ignore reality and die. Call me weak, if you will, but the universe calls me a survivor.
     
  26. Mecharic

    Mecharic I'm tempermental, deal with it.
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    @Zanip - WOW. You have my respect for that research. Congress lines its pockets with money made by selling weapons to Israel, which is probably the only reason we still do that.
     
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  27. Newton

    Newton Smart Retard

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    In my point of view, I couldn't agree further with Zanip. More than two-thirds of the world have recognized the State of Palestine as a sovereign nation, including Sweden and Iceland which have extremely high HDI ratings, and are considered some of the most developed in the world. The US should just end its mass slaughter of the Palestinians and stop supporting it's little pet, the Israelis. They have comitted too much wrong against the Palestinians in the past few years, as you can see from the graph that Zanip posted.

    Also, leading the topic further away to the main title... The USA should just stop getting involved in world politics... They have definately gone too far, and in my opinion they should never deploy on another mission to "give people democracy" by dropping bombs on them, or to "stop the spread of communism". It only leads in more deaths, as the USA has seen recently while dealing with ISIS.

    How long more are they going to continue this stupid behaviour?
     
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  28. klsjks

    klsjks

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    First, "a force for good" is very hard to quantify. I'd put the USA somewhere in the middle, probably as well-meaning but incompetent. I'm a patriotic American, but the government is just doing a crappy job these days, and has been for a good long while.

    As pertains to Israel, I completely agree with the USA supplying arms to them. I'd even support giving them more assistance, if it was necessary. They're one of our only sure allies on the planet, and despite rampant propaganda to the contrary, they're a mostly fair and just nation. I certainly don't support the bombing of innocents, but there's only so much you can do when your enemy keeps their weapons in civilian buildings. Both sides are at fault for the high number of Palestinian civilian casualties.

    And Dworvin, don't insult soldiers. They're just doing their duty, and deserve our respect.
     
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  29. Laach

    Laach I'm not wearing a scouter.

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    1) First, I'd ask them nicely to leave. If they refuse, then I think my skills at stirring up civil war in foreign groups might come in handy.

    2) I believe that murder is never the best choice, only the simple one for people too lazy or cowardice to come up with a better one.

    3) Homophobic behavior in the church, for the most part, has been cured. The church believes they have no right to judge others for their actions. This is why they would rather insult the concept rather than the people behind it. Though I do agree, they are not the best at being apologetic. Nor are most other people for that matter. And I also agree that religious people need to get their pride knocked down a few pegs.

    4) I wouldn't call you weak. Coward, yes. But choosing your own survival over the survival of others is definitely not weak.
     
  30. Mecharic

    Mecharic I'm tempermental, deal with it.
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    -mutters something about cowards living longer- "The meek shall inherit the earth."
     
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  31. Laach

    Laach I'm not wearing a scouter.

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    And this endless cycle of pointless bloodshed will continue. It is that same idiocy that I try to overcome.
    1411531352421.jpg
     
  32. Mecharic

    Mecharic I'm tempermental, deal with it.
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    Its downright depressing, really, how primitive humans are.
     
  33. Laach

    Laach I'm not wearing a scouter.

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    For me it's frusterating, not depressing. Depression implies that you think the situation is hopeless, impossible, or unchangeable; while frustration comes from when you think the situation is annoyingly difficult, but still has potential to change for the better.
     
    #33 Laach, Nov 4, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2014
  34. Mecharic

    Mecharic I'm tempermental, deal with it.
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    So you have a way to breed aggression out of humanity? Do tell xD

    I personally think we're going to create giant mutant thinking bees who take over the planet and leave us with a city on the far side of the moon where everyone works together because holy crap thats the other side of the god-damn moon, you cant survive alone there. :P
     
  35. Zanip

    Zanip Swag Cannon

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    I only have one major point left to make... The Israeli government claims that people in the Gaza Strip are Israelis and the buildings there are Israeli... But they continue firing rockets and making aerial attacks on Palestine, and on the so-called "Israelis". This is a tiny bit hypocritical, don't you think?
     
  36. Laach

    Laach I'm not wearing a scouter.

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    As long as they don't call themselves the good guys, I don't see any hypocrisy in that.
     
  37. ZACGAMR7

    ZACGAMR7 King of Asteria

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    This depends on which "United States" the topic is referring to. There actually is a difference. The term "United States of America" refers to the 50 states and all other sovereign territory while "United States" refers to the federal government and all of its companies, agencies and other accessory organizations. When you read the Constitution, this should make sense. "We the people of the United States... Constitution for the United States of America."

    Before things get confusing, it would be incorrect to say that the United States of America follows a specific foreign policy since different parties and individuals have dynamic views on a proper policy.

    To understand why the United States follows the policy it does today, we need to understand where it all began.

    Once upon a time, the value of gold was unchanging. In fact, it was the base of value for the US dollar at $35 per ounce of gold. This system made the value of the dollar as stable as it could possibly be, as long as there was enough gold to back it, which is what made gold so important in a number of major world conflicts, especially World War II (ultimately in WWII the gold standard was suspended in order to meet costs more flexibly though).

    Looking forward in time, the Vietnam War was projected to cost the United States $500 billion, while there was only enough gold in reserve to back $350 billion (1970s dollars). Initially, the Federal Reserve (a private collection of major banks which finances the US government) decided it would continue to print dollars to meet the cost, which led to rampant inflation, especially among foreign investors. As a result, these investors looked to withdraw their gold from the Federal Reserve's store before they lost too much of it. With the destruction of the dollar's value iminent, in 1971, President Richard Nixon oversaw the withdraw of the US dollar from the gold standard (essentially, the FR just stole over 300,000 tons of gold from investors all over the world, only it was legal...).

    With the US dollar now a debt based currency, the FR needed something to create demand for it if it was to keep the value it had for very long. Nixon happened to have struck a deal. The Saudi Arabian government (who controlled the biggest oil-producing nation in the world) agreed to only sell their oil (which the entire world would demand more and more as developing nations progressed) in US dollars in exchange for military protection/alliance as well as reduced rates on exports to the USA. Other nations quickly followed suit until the global oil industry was financially dominated by the United States. Now, not only did every nation need to have US dollars to pay for the majority of their energy costs if they imported oil, but also the currency of every nation became tied, in some way, to the US dollar.

    For the United States and the USA this was a great deal. Now, the FR could print as much unbacked (pretty much worthless) currency as it wanted, import as much as the USA wanted, while distributing inflation worldwide. That being, the FR was ALSO slowly stealing money from every person on Earth, CONSTANTLY.

    The problem is in more recent years, many nations have withdrawn from their oil agreements, sparking some concern in the United States. Muammar Gaddafi of Libya planned to unite Africa under one currency, the dinar, which would apply to oil sales as well. Not too long after releasing these plans, the US military ousted Gaddafi from power. What was once the strongest democracy of the middle east with the highest standard of living in all of Africa... was now a "failed state".

    A similar effect took place in Iraq under Saddam Hussein (who the US put into power in the first place...).

    Today the United States is aiming at Syria under the pretext of intervention against ISIS, but really they're only continuing their plans to overthrow Assads government. The US plans to do the same thing with Syria as done with Libya and Iraq: remove government and instigate terrorist activity in order to maintain control of petroleum interests.

    Here's the catch... the oil isn't in Syria. The oil is in Iran, who is tied to Syria through a treaty of mutual military defense. Iran is the third-largest oil producer on Earth, and they too are leaving the dollar status quo. Iran happens to be backed by both China and Russia (with promise of use of nuclear weapons as well). The US knows that if they instigate war with Iran, it means total destruction. However, to them, this is a better option than losing all control of the financial scam they've been buying into.

    So who's behind all this... well... not the US government! Let's look at the Federal Reserve. It was previously stated that the US dollar is a debt based currency whose demand is regulated by oil. A debt based currency is one which exists with the promise of repayment to its origin. With that being said, we can understand that since 1971, the FR had been printing debt currency and loaning it to the US government to pay its costs. However, the FR charges interest on these loans (wait... interest? On money that doesn't even exist? YES.). However, to ultimately pay this interest, the only option the US has is to borrow more money...

    And we wonder why our national debt is over $17 trillion and growing exponentially... Did you know that there's more debt in the world than actual money because of this?

    THIS. THIS right here is the basis of the foreign policy of the United States today. The military is NOT a force for good. It just says it is, just like every other tyrannical force in history trying to justify an unjust war with morality. The Spanish-American war? World War I?

    In conclusion, the only reason the US continues to follow the policy it does is because its losing control of its carefully-crafted robbery of the world's wealth, and it knows it will backfire at any time they're off-guard. When a government loses control but wants to stay in power, it will almost always turn to military force, and this is exactly what's happening.

    The best thing to remember is that VERY FEW American citizens are even aware that this is what their country is doing. Yet, as time moves forward, their government continues their rampage across the Middle East while slowly chipping away at their rights, from gun ownership, to religious practice on public property, to what's shown on mainstream press.

    The American people base their country on a simple set of moral values for society well-refined over the nearly 300 years the Constitution has existed. What they don't understand is how deviated their own government is from those very values. It's not the citizens prejudice should be aimed at. It's the reparation of their leaders that should be encouraged.

    The American people are a force for good. That's one thing I can understand, an American myself, raised to care for my family and community as would anyone else from any other free nation.


    Those enlisted in the military? A force for good.

    The people in charge of it? A force for food.

    I love the USA. I hate the US.
     
    • Educated Educated x 2
  38. Made_By

    Made_By Holy King of the Steadfast

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    I haven't read any of this but Australia is the best
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  39. Suzzie

    Suzzie [loading......]

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    I'm American, but I wish I was English. Hhhh.
    My mind was blown away by this thread, wow.
    :O​
     
  40. Adropkickmidget

    Adropkickmidget Supreme Leader of Katri

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    I think we can be a force for good, but we have our heads so far up our asses that nothing good can come of it. We have the resources and the ability but not the leadership to accomplish anything drastic.
     

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