Archived Gang Canonization

[Malvs]

The whole "Coven Canonization" process for the upcoming Vampire lore overhaul got me thinking... If vampire covens can be canonized, and noble houses can be canonized, why not gangs? Organizations like La Ganga and Usque Galenas are quite infamous in the RP community. Everyone knows who they are, and they've contributed immensely to roleplay in general. However, there's no way for them to become cemented in lore, unlike noble houses and (soon) vampire covens.

A large portion of crime RP isn't exactly done with skill. There are a lot of stereotypically evil "i'll kill u 4 no reason bcuz im crazy" characters. I think gang canonization would provide a great incentive for a higher level of crime RP. The concept is essentially the same as coven canonization. Gangs would serve as the epicenter of crime RP. Criminal RPers would be drawn to them, and a more organized structure would be created. Aside from that, gang canonization would provide quite a lot in terms of criminal/sewer plot progression. Gang wars could be made more official and have a larger impact on sewer RP as a whole, among other things.

Anyway. I suppose that about ties it up.

@LumosJared , being the new head of Lore Staff, I'd particularly like to hear your opinions on this.

Crime RPers: @Silent_Ruler @Khemostar @Sozzer @WaterDruppel @Manatee_ @Kibaa @SilentEndurance @Jadex224 @ChensSpaghetti @Eccetra @Caelamus (I KNOW THE NENYARINA AREN'T REALLY A GANG BUT OH WELL) @Nekoxo @YouMakeMeRaugh @CrescentLight @Squeaker555 @2001Pokemon2003 @Jouster @Jack_Castle SORRY IF I FORGOT ANYBODY

 

[MourningDoves]

Yesyesyes this would be so great for gang roleplay, especially like what you said about separating good gang rp from the bad.

 

[Silent_Ruler]

It'll help people to keep from being too OP or, if their gang's scale cannot be represented IG, have it recorded in the lore somewhere at least. I find that this will help with the whole issue in which people can't run successful gangs anymore because of waning player availability.

I had a chat about this with @TheBioverse once, so I thought it'd be nice to tag him.

I like the idea, but I'm sure you'll be open to it being more developed in staff's hands, should it ever get to that point. @MonMarty even discussed it with me once when the crime TS meeting was held. Interesting concept, and great timing, as it was implied it would probably go into effect with the new sewers.

 

[SilentRuination]

It wouldn't hurt, especially if it draws more players to be recruited for gangs.

 

[natcanino]

please please pleaseee.

 

[FireFan96]

As somebody who's started to enjoy the new sewer atmosphere and diversity, this gets my seal of approval.

 

[Eccetra]

(I KNOW THE NENYARINA AREN'T REALLY A GANG BUT OH WELL)

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IT'S OKAY WE'RE TOTALLY A GANG.

I really really love this idea! It would provide more of a base to prevent possible powergaming, and prevent new gangs popping up and saying "oh we're practically nobles in Ithania and have 34768 followers". There would be structure, and thus give an incentive for people to work towards - as well as hopefully better the reputation of sewer roleplayers in general.

I think a two-step system like low and high nobility would also be ideal, to provide a scale for resources and money. High crimelords would therefore have a more forbidible reputation, more numbers and more money, (though of course never as much as nobility,) and new gangs would start as low-tier organizations with a goal to work towards.

Seeing as staff are willing to do this with vampire covens, I would love to see it with gangs. An OOC etiquette rule could also be upheld throughout the gangs in this way, to help prevent salt.

 

[Malvs]

I think a two-step system like low and high nobility would also be ideal, to provide a scale for resources and money. High crimelords would therefore have a more forbidible reputation, more numbers and more money, (though of course never as much as nobility,) and new gangs would start as low-tier organizations with a goal to work towards.

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I really like that idea! 10/10

 

[ChensSpaghetti]

An OOC etiquette rule could also be upheld throughout the gangs in this way, to help prevent salt.

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PLEASE GOD NO BAN ON MEMES

I love this idea as a whole.

 

[Sozzer]

IT'S OKAY WE'RE TOTALLY A GANG.

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you're not a gang, you're a walking vegetable patch that happens to commit crimes

 

[Myujin]

Gang wars could be made more official and have a larger impact on sewer RP as a whole, among other things.

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I totally agree with this, whenever there is an on-going conflict in the sewers, "terror" should be an important factor in roleplay (when is something going to happen, how dangerous can it be, etc.) to avoid the usual edgy attitude of lol i don't care because my character just likes to be crazy all the time, considering that the new sewers are bringing a lot of activity right now.

 

[Conflee]

This gets a +1 from me, the only minor issue I could see is resources. Marty is busy with Noble Family canonization, then there is Coven canonization, etc. Might slow things down a tad.

 

[natcanino]

did someone say cabbage patch kids.

 

[Rhuyne]

I love the idea. Gets +1 from me!
Props to @Punktius, @Eccentra and @Silent_Ruler

 

[Mooffins]

Interesting concept, but I'm not all for it. Gangs don't do enough to affect other niches of roleplay outside of the crime world. This more seems to me a sort of "I want to be in Lore as well" idea, rather than something that is genuinely needed. Gangs are better off not being canonized, and instead their power and influence is determined by what matters and what is relevant, the other gangs. It's another level of Staff bureaucratic work that isn't needed, and provides minimal outcomes.

 

[Silent_Ruler]

Interesting concept, but I'm not all for it. Gangs don't do enough to affect other niches of roleplay outside of the crime world. This more seems to me a sort of "I want to be in Lore as well" idea, rather than something that is genuinely needed. Gangs are better off not being canonized, and instead their power and influence is determined by what matters and what is relevant, the other gangs. It's another level of Staff bureaucratic work that isn't needed, and provides minimal outcomes.

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Make canonized gangs subject to random use in criminal world progressions, and canonize gangs in exchange for automatic kill or maim perms when in the surface.

 

[Mooffins]

Make canonized gangs subject to random use in criminal world progressions, and canonize gangs in exchange for automatic kill or maim perms when in the surface.

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Though why. This also seems equally pointless, and is just a "I want to be canonized" without any regard for why that is important or not.

 

[Rhuyne]

Though why. This also seems equally pointless, and is just a "I want to be canonized" without any regard for why that is important or not.

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Going by that logic, I then feel like Noble House canonization is pointless as well. Orr Coven Canonization. But that's mainly to prevent misuse like @Sozzer stated.

 

[Silent_Ruler]

Though why. This also seems equally pointless, and is just a "I want to be canonized" without any regard for why that is important or not.

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I'm really just throwing ideas out into the open for the sake of it. Marty mentioned the idea before, so I imagine he'd have a more structured plan for it, if it is that he decides to go through with it.

Surely, those canonizations that are submitted for the sake of "being canonized without any regard for why that is important or not" will be evaluated/rejected by the staff.

 

[Mooffins]

Going by that logic, I then feel like Noble House canonization is pointless as well. Orr Coven Canonization. But that's mainly to prevent misuse like @Sozzer stated.

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Was that even the point of this thread, or did I miss something along the way where suddenly the creator of the topic wanted to discuss the relevance of already established RP bureaucracy.

I'm not here to discuss the relevance of Noble and Coven Canonization. If you want that to be discussed, make a different thread, but keep the creator's topic, on topic.

 

[ElderShrub]

It's another level of Staff bureaucratic work that isn't needed

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This is a fair point, and it may well not be worth the time and effort during an already heavy workload to fix a system that isn't systemically broken. Although I don't wish to be argumentative, I feel the backing for it is somewhat lacking however.

Gangs don't do enough to affect other niches of roleplay outside of the crime world.

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While they usually mostly affect other gangs, this is true, there have been significant effects from various gangs. Usque burnt down to districts and attacked the Golden Willow. The Nenyarina where involved in the first Kronou siege, and interactions with nobility are close to frequent. I don't know much about other gangs such a La Ganga however I am sure they all have their influence somewhere.

This more seems to me a sort of "I want to be in Lore as well" idea

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While there is some aspects of this, that I shall cover later in this post, the creator of the thread (And others) has also given specific reasons why they believe this is needed. You can debate if these reasons are valid or worth the effort, but not the intentions of the creator.

gang canonization would provide a great incentive for a higher level of crime RP.

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gang canonization would provide quite a lot in terms of criminal/sewer plot progression.

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It would provide more of a base to prevent possible powergaming

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Make canonized gangs subject to random use in criminal world progressions

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While this does tie in to the "Want to be canonised for no reason" argument I feel many gangs really want to be more involved in plot progression and the Roleplay community has a whole. Being self-contained and only affecting other gangs is fine however one of MassiveCraft's best selling points is the plot and action are largely player driven, in comparison to staff dictating the course of events and players being reactionary to that. It makes the world of Aloria feel more alive and interactive and the canonization of gangs, and including them more frequently in progressions, might help with this.

Now personally I honestly don't mind if gangs are not canonised, although it would be welcome if they where. I am staying out of this debate as a whole, I'm only throwing my two cents in here. I mean no disrespect and I do feel that the argument that it may not be worth the workload has some merit.

 

[Mooffins]

Usque burnt down to districts and attacked the Golden Willow. The Nenyarina where involved in the first Kronou siege, and interactions with nobility are close to frequent. I don't know much about other gangs such a La Ganga however I am sure they all have their influence somewhere.

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How did the first two points affect rp. Burning down stuff doesn't result in created rp. All I remember doing in response was listening to people in the noble assembly want to fund some kind of sewer purges that would just cost lots of money. Speaking for the nobles, I don't recall many times gangs ever interact with us. Usque is quite literally the only gang I've ever had any rp with as a High Lord, and it was of my own accord and approach. Gangs inherently stay in the sewers. Gangs inherently don't mingle with other niches of RP. It simply doesn't happen.

Being self-contained and only affecting other gangs is fine however one of MassiveCraft's best selling points is the plot and action are largely player driven, in comparison to staff dictating the course of events and players being reactionary to that. It makes the world of Aloria feel more alive and interactive and the canonization of gangs, and including them more frequently in progressions, might help with this.

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Sure. But. Why? Why would gangs matter in a World Progression. What do they ever have to do with. Well. Anything. The played gangs never interact with anyone outside their own circles, and are far too busy squabbling over who owns a sewer tavern than to cause actual world progressing roleplay. Once again, this seems like a "Put me in a world progression, canonize me, I want to be in lore and noticed" rather than an actual stab at creating anything. Putting your gang on the wiki doesn't add anything to how much influence it has, that is up to the players, just like you said.

Like I said. It's an extra amount of work that will result in nothing.

 

[Rhuyne]

I didn't mean to go off-topic. I just don't see anything wrong with Gang Canonization when there has been Noble House Canonization. If people had started begging for Noble House Canonization, I could also say they'd just be 'begging to be in the lore'.
I'd say about 1/3 of the server participates in crime roleplay, and about 1/3 participates in noble roleplay. I think with the aforementioned points and benefits we could at least give it a try. @iMcMuffins

 

[Mooffins]

I didn't mean to go off-topic. I just don't see anything wrong with Gang Canonization when there has been Noble House Canonization. If people had started begging for Noble House Canonization, I could also say they'd just be 'begging to be in the lore'.
I'd say about 1/3 of the server participates in crime roleplay, and about 1/3 participates in noble roleplay. I think with the aforementioned points and benefits we could at least give it a try. @iMcMuffins

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Since you're set on badgering this point. They're not comparable. The Nobility and the inner workings of the entire government have an effect. They're used constantly in World Progressions. They're used an important niche in roleplay. I don't really agree with how everything is done, but it's there. Why are gangs important to everyone else. Here's the answer: They're not. They hardly ever affect anything without the heavy assistance of outside niches. They never affect anything independently. It's like asking for Kleinfolk Bakeries to be canonized, under the pretense "Well Nobles can be canonized :///". Gangs are a niche that only affect others in their same niche, therefore are not deserving of being written about on the wiki, taking up hard to find staff time. Just because someone else gets to be on the wiki, doesn't mean everyone else should. Everyone's point just keep solidifying my position even more, and more and more this seems like "I want to be canonized too!".

 

[Rhuyne]

Yeah, I get that. Still, I disagree. But I'll wait to see what Lore Staff thinks of this.

 

[Malvs]

Gangs don't do enough to affect other niches of roleplay outside of the crime world.

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The same could be said for Vampires. They have literally never done anything to contribute to roleplay outside (and inside too, really) the crime world. However, they're being given a revamp (no pun intended) and the option of canonization so they can actually make an impact. I'm not complaining though - I think the new Vampire stuff is amazing. I just think the same should be done for gangs. Canonization would offer incentive, like I said, to improve the current state of crime RP, among other things.

 

[Bearacuda]

Hey just read your post and I totally agree with it, you could also utilizing slaves with it, that could also be a big thing as as well
Oh and I also made a thread about this yesterday "Shameless Sponsoring" so if you want to check it out that would be cool
link: https://forums.massivecraft.com/threads/gang-wars.50483/

 

[Walrusaur_]

I personally have to say I largely am of a mind with @Muffins_ points regarding this. Having played as all three of the common casts in roleplay (namely surface commoner, sewer RPer, and Noble) and I have quite literally interacted with sewer gangs once during my character's escape from Regalia after capture. The sewer gangs have done (as far as I am able to tell) next to nothing for other circles of roleplay despite being able to do so if they desired. The only one that toes that line is La Ganga, and even they have not done much of anything. I would however be interested to look into this thought myself if the sewer gangs proved they were able to focus on larger issues beyond the scope of "I want this tavern, I will fight your gang for it" and "Give me the spotlight and the power that comes with it" RP. In my current opinion, Gang canonization would bring nothing to roleplay for any circle except for the gangs, seeing as it would essentially become a means of measuring power. Again, there are plenty of ways that gangs could affect roleplay outside of their niches, they simply often choose not to try.

 

[Malvs]

... if the sewer gangs proved they were able to focus on larger issues beyond the scope of "I want this tavern, I will fight your gang for it" and "Give me the spotlight and the power that comes with it" RP.

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I agree with you on this. As I said, a lot of the current sewer RP isn't exactly satisfactory, and that does include some of the gang RP. However, I still think canonization should be an option for gangs who prove themselves to be worthy of it. Maybe none of them have done so yet, but providing the option of canonization, in my opinion, would serve as quite the hefty incentive. But I don't mean to say that it's the staff's duty to motivate the crime RP community, because it isn't. If canonization isn't offered immediately, I totally understand, but I don't think it should be 100% out of the cards. Even the possibility of gang canonization in the future would be great. It would give us as a community something to strive towards.

 

[Eccetra]

Oh boy, there's a lot here so I'm just going to pick out a few main points.

Gangs don't do enough to affect other niches of roleplay outside of the crime world.

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I would argue against that. Usque Galenas in particular have created a lot of conflict and scenarios that have effected even nobility; such as the kidnapping of the Sorenviks, Astrid Kade, burning the poor district, attempted kidnapping of a Coen, and now being a large player in the resistances. They have put in a lot of effort to get where they are. Behind the scenes, there was also a lot of input in demonology and attribate niches if I remember correctly.

This more seems to me a sort of "I want to be in Lore as well" idea, rather than something that is genuinely needed. Gangs are better off not being canonized, and instead their power and influence is determined by what matters and what is relevant, the other gangs.

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I can't speak for everyone, but when I say canonization I don't mean that I want gangs get written in the lore. Rather what I'd like is structure. When players are left completely to their own devices, it's difficult to come up with limits and decided within reason how much power each person has, as everyone by nature wants to be the best.

Speaking for the nobles, I don't recall many times gangs ever interact with us. Usque is quite literally the only gang I've ever had any rp with as a High Lord, and it was of my own accord and approach. Gangs inherently stay in the sewers. Gangs inherently don't mingle with other niches of RP. It simply doesn't happen.

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Just because you personally haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I listed some good examples above. This world progression of Freya Lo's reign in particular is likely to completely twist the way gangs are played, as they are getting intimately close with nobles and receiving various promises of pardons and the like.

Sure. But. Why? Why would gangs matter in a World Progression. What do they ever have to do with. Well. Anything. The played gangs never interact with anyone outside their own circles, and are far too busy squabbling over who owns a sewer tavern than to cause actual world progressing roleplay.

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I feel like this is more of a jab at sewer roleplayers than productive input. While I agree that many gangs prefer to stay in the sewers and engage in combat and magic rp, that is their own prerogative and I don't think they should be belittled for that. I know for certain that Usque Galenas, Nenyarina and Order of Bep were trying to influence surface roleplay, but there were only a few months between the Beggar King and Freya's reign so it didn't manage to come to a head.

Why are gangs important to everyone else. Here's the answer: They're not. They hardly ever affect anything without the heavy assistance of outside niches. They never affect anything independently

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Again, this comes across as quite snarky and unneeded. Gangs inheritently stick to the sewers because of views like this which seem to want to prevent them from going anywhere else. If there was canonization, there would be more incentive to branch out and effect other areas, as some have been tirelessly trying to do. My points above stand in response to this.

issues beyond the scope of "I want this tavern, I will fight your gang for it" and "Give me the spotlight and the power that comes with it" RP. In my current opinion, Gang canonization would bring nothing to roleplay for any circle except for the gangs, seeing as it would essentially become a means of measuring power.

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The same could be argued of vampire coven canonization, in my opinion. What will that effect outside of sewer dwellers? The reason gangs don't tend to effect much outside of the sewers, is because they often don't know how to begin. With the new sewers being much larger and bustling with activity, I honestly think it would be worthwhile to implement something like this for the 30% of roleplayers that roleplay down there exclusively. I have faith that things are beginning to change with this world progression, and that upholding a system of structure and roleplay etiquette could influence sewer roleplay for the better.

 

[Malvs]

large snip

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Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Film_Noir]

From personal experience, the Nenyarina have played a critical role in the resistance and in many ways have been the glue holding many plots together because of the places they can reach. @Eccetra herself bends over backwards to do behind the scenes work, not only for her own group, but for other people too, like the administration tasks and document maintaining that she was doing for the Kronau folks. She's courteous and helpful to other players. If people like her found their groups canonised in some way on the wiki, I'd say that they deserve it for being such large and wonderful contributors to the community.

 

[MonMarty]

The same could be said for Vampires. They have literally never done anything to contribute to roleplay outside (and inside too, really) the crime world. However, they're being given a revamp (no pun intended) and the option of canonization so they can actually make an impact. I'm not complaining though - I think the new Vampire stuff is amazing. I just think the same should be done for gangs. Canonization would offer incentive, like I said, to improve the current state of crime RP, among other things.

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Vampires are largely being given a revamp due to it creating 30% of the traction of the server, not because it of particularly high quality relevance. This process of canonization isn't my decision to take anymore, but my take on the matter is that most if not all of the gangs that boast at least 6 members or more (and thus are the only ones actually viable for canonization) have a more than problematic relationship with the powergaming rules.

Canonization usually requires signing some form of Code of Conduct. Due to the natural habitat in which crime roleplay and particularly gang roleplay occurs in, this creates an excessively large risk of us having to revoke a lot of canonizations on a running train. I'm not inherently opposed. But the way everything stands currently, I don't think many if any gangs stand much of a chance of being canonized by the standards that are maintained for the nobles and covens.

 

[Malvs]

most if not all of the gangs that boast at least 6 members or more (and thus are the only ones actually viable for canonization) have a more than problematic relationship with the powergaming rules.

Canonization usually requires signing some form of Code of Conduct. Due to the natural habitat in which crime roleplay and particularly gang roleplay occurs in, this creates an excessively large risk of us having to revoke a lot of canonizations on a running train.

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I agree with the first part of that, but I do think the Code of Conduct would reduce powergaming. I feel like people would quit doing it if it meant they had a chance at getting their organization canonized... But I can't say for sure. And if canonization isn't a possibility, I still think there should be some way of documenting crime organizations and keeping them in check so (like @Eccetra said) they can't make outrageous claims like they have 50,000 members and NPC backups and whatnot. I've considering setting up a player-run system like that (similar to something that I think @Sozzer came up with awhile back) but obviously I lack the authority to enforce it. Perhaps a gang registry that's specific to the forums, like title registration for nobility, or the Regalian Resistance section for the numerous resistance groups.

 

[FireFan96]

Perhaps a gang registry that's specific to the forums, like title registration for nobility, or the Regalian Resistance section for the numerous resistance groups.

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You can always have a player run registry. I don't need to go any further than to highlight @Film_Noir 's Register of Merchants that he's had for years. The entire registry was conceived by him, and you can already tell from some of the forum and game events that it has made an impact.

Hope this gives an idea of how a player doesn't need to have staff create something for them to enjoy. If you're devoted to something, then you can make it happen here. Snowball effect

 

[Malvs]

You can always have a player run registry.

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I would love to do that, and I may very well try it, but the thing is that it probably wouldn't fix the problems plaguing the crime RP community at the moment. A player-run system would be unenforceable. The entire purpose of the registry (for me, anyway) would be to regulate. It would set parameters for what gangs can and cannot do in terms of resources, similar to the old method of family registration where one would type up the history and wealth level of their family and submit it for review. Aside from that, it would provide a nice little area for gangs to provide a bit of information about themselves, such as history and customs. I would also like to employ the idea that @Eccetra came up with about high and low gangs. High gangs would be those that have gone through a process possibly similar to the one required for canonization. They would have a decent amount of resources and a larger span of influence. Low gangs would be your average crime organization. Unregistered and whatnot.

But that would be impossible to fully enforce without staff support, as I said.

 

[Malvs]

And registration like that may help keep powergaming to a minimum, I think.

 

[Film_Noir]

I would love to do that, and I may very well try it, but the thing is that it probably wouldn't fix the problems plaguing the crime RP community at the moment. A player-run system would be unenforceable. The entire purpose of the registry (for me, anyway) would be to regulate. It would set parameters for what gangs can and cannot do in terms of resources, similar to the old method of family registration where one would type up the history and wealth level of their family and submit it for review. Aside from that, it would provide a nice little area for gangs to provide a bit of information about themselves, such as history and customs. I would also like to employ the idea that @Eccetra came up with about high and low gangs. High gangs would be those that have gone through a process possibly similar to the one required for canonization. They would have a decent amount of resources and a larger span of influence. Low gangs would be your average crime organization. Unregistered and whatnot.

But that would be impossible to fully enforce without staff support, as I said.

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You'd be somewhat surprised. With the merchants, for example, we're used to getting new folks join, who have five flourishing globally-established businesses, a fleet of ten tall ships, hired mercenaries, and a dozen banks, with cash to burn on mansions and horses and feasts and, given all of that, they're Ur pirates with no parents or something. The merchant community self-regulates. These new guys sooner rather than later realise that their business model is a "bit" over the top through the advice of their peers.

I do have to say though, we had MonMarty come in a while back and he gave us some ideas on how to regulate ourselves. He set up a spreadsheet and, on it, asked us to register the one, single, major "thing" that each family produces, and identified the supply-demand chains associated with that thing. He also asked for family threads as a compulsory entry to the guild games, where the family threads contained information relevant to business history and other info.

We've maintained these requirements and set our standards high and it really does help with stopping merchant powergaming.

What has also worked to our advantage is that our one, single merchant guild contains a high number of the active merchant roleplayers in it, all together, and thus self-regulation within a large percentage of the community is achievable. You'd possibly need some sort of setup where all sewer gangs could come together in a similar fashion to help regulate each other? Some kind of council or something?

Don't get me wrong, a little bit of staff support now and then is very, very nice. It can really help with setting standards, and the dungeon master aspect is fantastic for helping to get your story out there and providing some relevant global events for your community to play with. But, as a community, you can also achieve a lot on your own. As FireFan96 said, you just need to commit to giving it a go and have a few dedicated people who are creative and can pull it all together.

Just some thoughts from someone who's done something along the lines of what you're talking about, anyway!

 

[Sozzer]

I've considering setting up a player-run system like that (similar to something that I think @Sozzer came up with awhile back) but obviously I lack the authority to enforce it.

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i've actually got a semi-sort-of-decent prototype of that sitting around, and nearly roped a few gangs in to help me test it, but then i realised it'd be pointless trialling it in the old sewers since putting in some way to consider territory a few months into the thing would cause needless confusion. as it stands, main thing i'm waiting for before i get it properly set up is the newsewer rentals going up so territory can be taken into account.

EDIT: to clarify, it probably needs rebuilding ground-up to account for some distinct changes in newsewers, current plot events, etc. but as an outline of what's useful, at least, i've got some info, particularly from a poll i had people do

 

[Conflee]

Another minor issue with Gang Canonization is the ... unstable... nature of Gangs. A group may spend a month rising to power, then they dominate the scene for another month, before they disappear overnight due to IC events. HOWEVER, if a time limit were put on them, say, the gang had to be active and around for more than two months or something, that could solve the issue- if a gang has been around for that long they have 100% maneuvered themselves into a position of power and stability- enough so that staff wouldn't have to worry about the group dying a week after the page goes up.