Archived Forced Surrender

[nray93]

Any raid faction knows this, you raid someone , annihilate them but they absolutely refuse to surrender, no matter what.

The thing is, any person watching the raid would agree that you "won" the raid. But you won´t get anything unless they surrender , which many factions blatantly refuse to.

To counter that I thought of a (relatively) fair system (BETA) called forced surrender.

Here is the way it works:

1.The raid
When an enemy faction enters enemy territory they can start the raid by killing a person of the faction they want to raid in their land (you cannot raid someone who is not there).
Once the raid starts a count down starts. That countdown should be at 2-3 hours if at any point not a single attacker is in there the counter resets (note that the regular time limit of 4h per raid still counts).
If the raiders manage to keep at least 2 (1?;3?;X?) persons inside the enemy faction land they win.
Enemy faction land is defined here as land that has been owned by the enemy faction within the last 24 hours. This is to prevent factions winning by unclaiming.


2.The tribute
If they win they get the max tribute of the members who were on. What does this mean?
It means if a faction has 30 people in it but only 11 were on at ANY time during the raid, the tribute they would have to pay would be
11*20r (since it is bracket 2) = 220r.
Full surrender would be 30*40r=1200r (full surrender is a surrender with max tribute at the current system).
This also prevents raiding enemys who are not on atm. 0 people on would lead to 0*10r (lowest bracket) = 0 r
This money would be deducted from the faction bank. If not enough money is in there a negative powerboost will occur with the height of the missing truce money (in Regals)/10 .
Example:
Faction Power: 135
Faction Bank: 102 regals
220 regal through forced surrender.
102 regals get transfered to the other bank leaving the bank at 0.
118 regals missing. Negative powerboost of 118/10=~11 occurs.
Rest Power: 124
Rest Bank: 0.
The negative powerboost would be permanent untill the missing money has been paid to the faction bank (and transfered from there).

3.The truce
Wheter the attackers won or not. After a raid comes a truce. Because this truce is not due to a end of the war between the faction it is a short truce. The short truce lenght I suggest is between 1 and 2 weeks. This is not very long, but long enough to recover from any attack. If a faction desires a more permanent peace they can negotiate a regular truce.



The things that would need to be coded for this:
- Detection for deaths in your own fac land.
- Detection for enemys in your fac land.
- Automated transfer from faction bank 1 to faction bank 2.
- Automated negative powerboost and powerboost lift.

Notes:
1. This idea is semi finished (as I have tought of it only recently) so it may not be complete yet and/or have loopholes which require fixing.
2. Constructive criticism is allways welcome if you find a flaw point it out. Derails into off topic and non constructive criticism ("I dun like for no raisins" (blame kayor comics that I allways use raisins recently)) are less welcome as they don´t help the discussion.
Edit 3:
Just to make it clear, supports are fine but reasons why you agree OR disagree are even better. That way it will help me improve my suggestions wheter this will succeed or end in failure.

 

[gridiron1024]

Although this is defiantly a problem that needs to be addressed, and this is a good start, I do see a few problems with it.

First off, is would a forced surrender be automated? If so, the issue would be that some people dont raid for regals, they prefer items or a flag to be flown. Another issue with it would be what would happen if there is not enough money in the faction bank? Lastly, if it is automated, you could beat just about any faction by waiting for the pvpers to log off, and striking when they are weak, thus giving yourself a grace period from their pvpers attacking you. If, however, it is not automatic, that would be quite a bit of work for the Game Staff, and very hard to enforce in my opinion.

The other problem I see is with the calculating. If you kill all the enemies, none will be on their faction land, so would that just go and reset the timer?

 

[Th3_Drunk_Monk]

So a way to obliterate rp factions and take money every 2 weeks? While I agree stubborn factions can be a pain in the butt, forcing them to pay because they've no way to fight back or are pinned to a point where its impossible is a bit off :/.
Taking the choice of surrender away is just a way for bigger stronger players/factions to muscle smaller ones out of power/money.

With the amount of small factions around and new ones being started, people would just not bother. This would be a huge deterrent to starting a faction in fear of being forcibly robbed of thier belongings.

Also I assume the usual response of faction tp'ing to regalia in case of raid would cause instant win to the raiders?
Also if i kill a single member of a faction and then manage to hide in thier fac land for 3 hours, I win? or am i reading that wrong?

If this is to work i'd expect a counter plugin which would force Victory to the defending faction on death to the raiders to even the score or something of the like.

Good to see there are suggestions cropping up about this sorta thing though.

 

[nray93]

Although this is defiantly a problem that needs to be addressed, and this is a good start, I do see a few problems with it.

First off, is would a forced surrender be automated? If so, the issue would be that some people dont raid for regals, they prefer items or a flag to be flown. Another issue with it would be what would happen if there is not enough money in the faction bank? Lastly, if it is automated, you could beat just about any faction by waiting for the pvpers to log off, and striking when they are weak, thus giving yourself a grace period from their pvpers attacking you. If, however, it is not automatic, that would be quite a bit of work for the Game Staff, and very hard to enforce in my opinion.

The other problem I see is with the calculating. If you kill all the enemies, none will be on their faction land, so would that just go and reset the timer?

Click to shrink...

If not enough money is in the bank it would simply cost them power. 1 power per 10 regal missing. The power would be restored once they payed up.

Even if the pvp´ers of one faction log out they can still call allies. Not to mention that this truce can be broken by the defenders at wish (since they "surrendered"). So they can strike back at any time.

The way I wish it would be would be automatic.

Edit: The timer only resets when none of the ATTACKING faction are in the land of the DEFENDING faction. This means if the attacker kill all defenders and they return they sdo not reset the timer.

So a way to obliterate rp factions and take money every 2 weeks? While I agree stubborn factions can be a pain in the butt, forcing them to pay because they've no way to fight back or are pinned to a point where its impossible is a bit off :/.
Taking the choice of surrender away is just a way for bigger stronger players/factions to muscle smaller ones out of power/money.

With the amount of small factions around and new ones being started, people would just not bother. This would be a huge deterrent to starting a faction in fear of being forcibly robbed of thier belongings.

Also I assume the usual response of faction tp'ing to regalia in case of raid would cause instant win to the raiders?
Also if i kill a single member of a faction and then manage to hide in their fac land for 3 hours, I win? or am i reading that wrong?

If this is to work i'd expect a counter plugin which would force Victory to the defending faction on death to the raiders to even the score or something of the like.

Good to see there are suggestions cropping up about this sorta thing though.

Click to shrink...

The thing is the reduced tribute. Let´s be honest most factions have only a small fraction of their members on at the same time. That would mean a very low tribute. Altough I see your point that pure RP factions with many members (lets say 40+) would draw the short end. But, compared to the normal surrender this surrender would in most cases not cost a lot.

Small factions (below 10) members would give such a low reward (9 members->90regals for 2-3 hours of raid) that it would be more profitable to darkroom/enchant a bit.

Raiders cannot instant win unless the defenders surrender. The defenders have 2-3 hours to knock the attackers out of their land, be it with knockback or with death. They can also call allies to help them doing this.

Because of the kill and hide I added the part of a certain number of required raiders to counter this. Also it is certainly not easy to hide in enemy territory 2-3 hours if they know you are somewhere there.
Maybe add a message telling the defenders "Raid of your base in [Continent] started".

The defenders win by not letting the attackers win. Keep in mind that the usual 4 hours raid limit still counts. If they cannot bring the 2-3 hour countdown to 0 within the 4 hours, they lose. They HAVE to truce the defenders then (or get reported the same as someone would get reported for not trucing after getting max tribute).
So basicly in exchange for having the risk of paying for a small surrender they also gain the possibility to gain a free truce for 1-2 weeks. Altough I would certainly be open to make the truce longer if the defenders win in order to balance it.

 

[BittaBoBittoBa]

But then people would raid just for the sake of it without any reas-... oh wait. But morals aside, what if the plugin glitches? That would leave a hellotta angry people.Ignorance is bliss, and I'm very ignorant, let 'em continue to refuse defeat. If they don't want to pay the tribute, up the stakes.

 

[morgan_slater]

This seems like it would make a war between factions only last a single raid...

 

[krios41]

it sounds like a good idea even thoug i don't like the idea of being forced to surrender .
but aside from that i see it happening that factions just make huge ugly walls with totaly no gates or some way to get inside, so raiding people can't come in.

 

[Darknesscrusher]

'Lol let's raid Haven fur le moneyz'

 

[jemoeder2021]

So damn, im online afk because i had to go so i will have to pay 10 regals for lettin' my pc on? Oh hell no!

 

[jemoeder2021]

A poor guy who spended all his money on his faction = NO MERCY!
NO PAY NO CLAIM

 

[jemoeder2021]

1-2 weeks?! Maybe 1 Day maximum, Hmmm lets see who we are going to raid today... Oh i can't raid anyone because i raided them 3 days ago *-*

 

[nray93]

But then people would raid just for the sake of it without any reas-... oh wait. But morals aside, what if the plugin glitches? That would leave a hellotta angry people.Ignorance is bliss, and I'm very ignorant, let 'em continue to refuse defeat. If they don't want to pay the tribute, up the stakes.

Click to shrink...

All plugins are subject to failures sometimes that is a risk that cannot be avoided. I respect your opinion though on this matter. Some (99.9999%) people prefer the current system over the one I suggested.

This seems like it would make a war between factions only last a single raid...

Click to shrink...

This is a valid point. It does limit a war unless both sides raid eachother (because a raid would break the truce). A switch on wheter you want to atempt a forced surrender might be neccesary. That way the raider can decide if they prefer the old all ot nothing raid or the forced surrender method.

it sounds like a good idea even thoug i don't like the idea of being forced to surrender .
but aside from that i see it happening that factions just make huge ugly walls with totaly no gates or some way to get inside, so raiding people can't come in.

Click to shrink...

Edit:
People already build those ugly walls so much that there is a suggestion to ban said high walls. If people really do not want to get raided they can use caves as you said. The forced surrender is only neccesary because people are REALLY stubborn when it comes to surrendering. Many won´t surrender even tough they clearly lost.

'Lol let's raid Haven fur le moneyz'

Click to shrink...

"Oh noes haven got fed up and just decided to hire mercs who ownz uz."
But seriously, I am aware that this needs other "suggestions" added to be completed (and thereby relatively abuse free). Like for example a successfull variant of a peacefull faction suggestion.

So damn, im online afk because i had to go so i will have to pay 10 regals for lettin' my pc on? Oh hell no!

A poor guy who spended all his money on his faction = NO MERCY!
NO PAY NO CLAIM

1-2 weeks?! Maybe 1 Day maximum, Hmmm lets see who we are going to raid today... Oh i can't raid anyone because i raided them 3 days ago *-*

Click to shrink...

1. Why the hell are you afk in the first place? Also 10 regals is almost nothing.
2. With big factions come big responsibilitys (altough a limiter how far the reduction can be would be reasonable). If a limiter would be in place it should be something like 5 per person as minimum max power.
3. 1-2 week is more then enough to recover from a raid. 1 day or less would be heavily abused.

 

[WhiteApache]

So what if the faction lived entirely underground, like some Dwarven mountain hall thing? All that would be needed is to catch some noobs outside of the fortress who are chopping wood and sit on top of the mountain, right? I like the idea of a definitive 'win' for the factions but is it really a victory if you can't get anyone else because they're sitting under the mountain? If I lived in some underground cave system and didn't need to come up for food or anything, what would it matter that you are sitting outside my gate?

 

[jemoeder2021]

1-2 weeks god you don't know what that is..
Recovering power, forgetting to shut pc of
10 regals, a new guy gets a faction because all his friend has combined money, they are new buildin' fresh as new like 9 players 180regals...

 

[Mecharic]

I have a worry: Okyno is a large faction with multiple towns and lots of members. We are an easy target, since only 1 member needs to be killed to begin a raid, and there are loads of hiding places between the 4+ towns we have. All a player needs to do is kill one of my members, hide for 3 hours, and rake in the profits.

I propose that the victor be the one who kills the most people during the raid. I would like to also add on this: the tribute should be calculated based on the number of deaths suffered greater than the winning faction. That is, if Faction A kills 12 times and Faction B kills 19 times, Faction B wins by 7 deaths and gets 70 Regals. The timer would last 4 hours, then any kills would be negative (counting against the killers kill-count) to enforce the 4 hour raid rules.

 

[jemoeder2021]

It should be if atleast 20% has been killed, like with 10 peeps like 2 have to die atleast something like this...
If you have like 20 its 4 and so on... Though i might slightly go off in the dirrection of 1/3 cause if you are with 9 say 1 guy has to be killed... (active people!!)

 

[Bmchow]

1. Ok there is somethings that are wrong with this for an example is that what if all of the defending faction logs off then does like the timer reset.
2. What if you are like afk like I see you nray93 sometimes
3. Also I think there should be a warning signal to tell you if enemies are on your claim
4. There is also a fundamental flaw in that if I was able to keep the attacking faction out of my walls yet they are still within my claimed land it will still count the timer
5. And finally I think that if your able to kill the enemy enough so that they have no more faction power then if they were just standing on your land they wouldn't count as anything because a raider who keeps on coming nonstop can get annoying.

 

[Waminer]

There are a host for problems for this and it really just makes life a bit easier so I think this isn't worth it.

• Bunch of "BornaSepic" like raiders who slaughter Mecharic and co. for infinite money
• Take above problem, and make it an RP faction
• MCCMO is broken beyond mortal comprehension meaning one axeman can slaughter infinite amounts of noobs with skullslpitter when in real numbers made the biggest difference and axes were garbage.
• Kill one farmer with no armor and 3 pieces of bread, proceed to hide like a pussy for 3 hours and gain all the silvers.
• Imagine the above problem with 9thlegion or other active big factions, I repeat, all the silvers.

 

[Kapry]

I like this idea as a way to decide, who wins the raid. I dislike this idea as a way to decide, who wins a war.

Nobody should be forced to surrender out of one battle. In my opinion there should, with this plugin, be extra brackets for winning a raid. The money you get from winning a raid would of course be a lot lower than the money you get from winning a war.
But if this would be implemented in a way, even the most stubborn faction will soon give in and surrender, because for everytime they get raided, they would have to open their pockets.

Yet, there are many flaws in this idea, that need to be fixed first. For example the thing with just hiding in the enemy territory.

Also this would require a lot of work and it's up to Cayorion to decide, whether it's worth it or not.

(In fact this kind of "competition" sounds more like a minigame... Actually I think a minigame where you have the chance to lose/win some money sounds like fun.)

 

[nray93]

-Place holder- (anything between this post and my last post will be quoted and responded too - Tommorow , cause im sleepy)

UNDER CONSTRUCTION:
~25% Done

 

[Sirvan]

Or just get rid of the new pvp rules and bring back old good massive pvp..

 

[BittaBoBittoBa]

All plugins are subject to failures sometimes that is a risk that cannot be avoided. I respect your opinion though on this matter. Some (99.9999%) people prefer the current system over the one I suggested.

Click to shrink...

Its not the errors that are bad, its their aftermath.

For example, imagine in real life if a Repo-Man obtained the wrong address. (happens all the time)

Sure, it might've been a small human error of someone working at the Bank,

But it had a huge, extremely huge outcome. That's what made it so unacceptable.

Now when you're forcing our factions and money to obey a computer's calculations,

Without any sort of Human involvement, It is simply a bad move.

 

[Shayin]

I don't really like this. In theory it'd be good, but if I had a faction that is 100% in a cave all attackers would have to do would be to sit above my cave in the claimed land and wait for the timer to go out. I think that if the factions just remain defiant, you should move on. It's not worth the time and effort just to have them hiding in a hole. Idea...
Not- Supported

 

[LadyRose_]

I have but a simple answer, "No."

 

[Miss_Confined]

I don't like this idea... But I'm the leader of a small roleplay faction where most of the members are inactive besides Sassy, and my coleaders, (and me :3)... Not Supported. I could get into details if necessary but really my answer is just NO.

 

[Fellbeast58blue]

Overall, I support this idea. However, there are major problems with it and many things that should be changed.

Problems:
1. Having to pay a lot of tribute money for only 1-2 weeks of peace? I don't think so. I know that it isn't max tribute, it's just the tribute of the members online during the raid, but still, there are many huge factions with many members on at each time. After 1 week, when the peace treaty expires, the aggressor can just keep coming back and raiding the defending faction out of their regals, ultimately ruining them financially.

2. I don't like how the timer begins countdown as soon as someone in the defending faction is killed. I have many members in my faction who usually don't wear armor when doing things such as farming and fishing, and building. This means that a raider in full god gear can just pop out of nowhere and kill the unsuspecting victim, starting the timer. A little unfair, is it not?

3. Attackers being able to hide is ridiculous. They should not be able to kill an unarmored noob, then find a secluded hole to hide in for 3 hours. It's unrealistic, since battles in the real world are never won by killing one soldier and then just hiding. It's also very unfair.

Solutions to the Above Problems:
1. Very rarely are wars ended in a single battle. When the timer runs out, and the raiders win, instead of having regals payed to them and a 1-2 week peace treaty initiated between the two factions, the victory should only count as a "battle that's been won".

What I'm proposing is that when factions enemy each other, it starts a "war" that consists of 5 battles. The opposing factions must raid each other, and if the raider kills someone and stays on the enemy's land for three hours, they have won a single battle. If the defender, however, drives the raiders off their land, the defenders have one a single battle. The server would automatically track the battles that have been won by each side, and whoever wins 3/5 battles has then won the "war". They are then given max tribute from the loser faction's bank.

2. Rather than having the timer count down when a member on the defending faction's land is killed, it should only start counting down if the defender who the raider assaulted retaliates, in which they are "tagged", and if they die at the hands of the attacker, then the timer starts counting down. (This is similar to the premium pacifist true/false tagging system).

3. Along with the 3 hour timer, there should be a timer counting the length of time between kills the raider has made against the defenders. The attacker has to kill a member of the defending faction every 30 minutes. If the raider does not kill a defender every 30 minutes, the 3 hour timer will reset. This is the perfect solution to counter cowardly raiders attacking, then hiding.

Other Ideas:
1. I also think that every 20 minutes, the attackers should be able to unlock one door or trapdoor in the enemy faction's territory. This way, the defenders can't just "hunker in the bunker".

For instance, say that 20 minutes after the 3 hour timer is started, the raiding faction gets a message saying "You may unlock one door in (faction name)'s territory. The raiders could open the door to some houses, of they could open the door to the f home. They choose the f home door to open, and kill most of the people inside, but many of the other defenders run to their houses and close the doors. After another 20 minutes, the attackers get another message saying they can unlock another door. They choose to unlock the door to one of the houses, and kill the member hiding in it. So now the raiders have access to two doors, the f home door and a house's door. This process continues every 20 minutes, until the 3 hour timer runs out, or the attackers all get killed.

2. There should be a /f surrender option added for faction leaders to use. That way, if they just want to surrender the battle, because they don't want to be harassed for 3 hours, they can just get it over with.

All this said, I think it's a great idea to implement a feature like this. It will make raiding more realistic and will keep some factions *cough* *cough* Eldergods *cough* from just hiding in their base the entire war, and making it boring for everybody.

 

[Sparrow26]

Although I agree that this is a problem, I do not agree this is a solution. I believe 'Raiding' Should be set aside for wars. Wars where staff approve it before it starts, and a plugin that staff could enter figures into and make 'Teams'. Alot like groups from Groupmanager, except every time one side gives a deat it is a point for the other side and every time a kill is obtained it is a point for the killer's side. Adter a side/group/team get enough points, the war is ended anda debt system alot like the mechbank's begins, unless the losing side can pay up front. this debt would continue until full tribute has been payed and secures a truce. however if the debt is not serviced on time, the truce ends and the war begins anew, this time with the previous losing side down a few points to start with. If you have made it this far, thank you and I hope that you find this comment to be correct and to solve this problem, if so help the idea by slapping it an agree