Archived Faction Access To Farming

[Nulshi]

My suggestion is to add a new faction perm that allows members to break wheat, carrots, melons and other farm blocks so that you can still allow them to farm without allowing them to build or break other blocks

Oh and of course that means they should be allowed to place seeds too

 

[Zacatero]

I really like this idea.

 

[Gerrior]

Since we as in the server are using our own-made faction plugin (?) this should be allowed. I do find it rather gruesome having to give access and trust the player in not destroying nearby blocks, etc. +1 Support

 

[Zacatero]

Since we as in the server are using our own-made faction plugin (?) this should be allowed. I do find it rather gruesome having to give access and trust the player in not destroying nearby blocks, etc. +1 Support

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I personally don't know the tech side of stuff... but if its possible... then ya we of all servers have the ability to do it.

 

[Jahrur]

I would love to see this permission implemented.

 

[BenRekt]

Really good idea, +1 from me.

 

[HeartAched]

@ulumulu1510

 

[Kushiban]

This would be AMAZING. Absoloutely AMAZING. I hope this happens.

 

[ulumulu1510]

My suggestion is to add a new faction perm that allows members to break wheat, carrots, melons and other farm blocks so that you can still allow them to farm without allowing them to build or break other blocks

Oh and of course that means they should be allowed to place seeds too

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I was summoned?

While it is technically possible to create a Faction-Perm to break a limited set of blocks, it is not something I would suggest to do. What is farming? What blocks are included in that? Are trees farming or are ores farming? All in all, it is not easy to define the exact set of blocks/materials which are considered "farming" over "breaking".

In my opinion, this goes into the same user management problem we usually have with f access. We would like to be able to give a whole faction or a factions rank (ex. Wilderness-Officer) the permission to edit a chunk. But we are not able to (as of yet). This problem is not easy to solve but we have made progress on that field during MassiveLock development. No promisses that it comes anywhen soon, but we are getting there.

Tl;Dr: It is possible to implemet this, but it cures a symptom and not the issue. The issue is being worked on.

 

[Zacatero]

We would like to be able to give a whole faction or a factions rank (ex. Wilderness-Officer) the permission to edit a chunk.

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I'm a bit confused what you are referring to here... because you can add factions to accesses with /f access f [fac name]

 

[Sephite]

While it is technically possible to create a Faction-Perm to break a limited set of blocks, it is not something I would suggest to do. What is farming? What blocks are included in that? Are trees farming or are ores farming? All in all, it is not easy to define the exact set of blocks/materials which are considered "farming" over "breaking".

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First of all: Thank you for constantly trying to improve the server with its plugins

Farming in my opinion wouldn't be trees (logs and leaves) or ores. For both faction members and recruits can go to the wilderness, where they will find plenty of these materials and they can break the blocks there too. Crops in the other hand which need farmland, water and light, are harder to find naturally. Thus I would consider

• carrots
• potatoes
• wheat
• sugarcane
• pumpkins
• melons
• and maybe cocoa

as the "farm-blocks" for this brilliant idea.

Maybe also netherwart to make brewing easier (and thus to help PVP).

I wouldn't consider mushrooms as farm-blocks because we have some maps where we can farm them easily in the wilderness. Same with flowers, apples, vine, cacti, grass and fern.

I would love if this idea was implemented, even if it would just be until the issue can be solved by our techies :3

 

[ulumulu1510]

I'm a bit confused what you are referring to here... because you can add factions to accesses with /f access f [fac name]

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The aim would be that you could not only grant a whole faction (f access f [faction]), but also ranks of a faction (ex. f access f [faction] [rank]) the access to a chunk.

What I mean by this is: Everyone that is in this faction and has the specified rank (or higher) is granted access there. This system would work with any faction, your own included.

Ex: You are leader of Herp. You grant access to all Members of Derp ( f access f Derp Member) access to a chunk. Now all Members, Officers and Leaders are able to access that chunk and edit it.
Ex. 2: You are the leader of Derp. In your faction Recruits may not build anywhere (f perm). Now you grant all of Derps Recruits permission to your farming chunks ( f access f Derp Recruit) . This way everyone in your faction (since they are all at least Recruit) has now build access to that chunk.


A system like this would solve your issue more efficiently and broadly, than just allowing a certain set of blocks to be treated differently.

 

[Madus]

So you want a permission that allows people to build/break crops, but not other blocks. If we go down that path, should we also add a perm for mining, redstone stuff, or trees? So this begs the question if this single permission is the way to go.
There is a planned rework of the access system, which will fix some build right related problems players have encountered. I can also assure you it is high up my priority list, so you don't have to wait an eternity. Until that is done this won't be considered, but afterwards we can look into more customisation, regarding ranks, perms, and flags.

 

[Nulshi]

i appreciate the tech staff looking into this and other people for support but

So you want a permission that allows people to build/break crops, but not other blocks. If we go down that path, should we also add a perm for mining, redstone stuff, or trees?

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Realistically speaking, Slippery Slope doesnt apply here, you cant deny that farming is a specific feature on Minecraft that is unique from tree farming or mining. I dont think any one would ask for another perm to mine ores in faction land when you can just go out into the wilderness. Trees too (plus trees are used in builds anyway so you cant risk allowing access to that). The difference is that food farms are an actual thing that people in minecraft build and maintain for the specific purpose of constantly breaking and rebreaking these specific blocks to eat and survive.

And the key difference between this and chunk access is so people can have access to these specific blocks no matter where they are instead access to everything in a whole chunk. What if your farm chunks are also shared with other stuff that you dont want people to access? Like if you built your farm on top of your underground storage or if you built your farm inside a castle so the farm is on the ground floor but you have other stuff on the other floors you dont want people to access.

so I guess im saying that farming (breaking food blocks over and over again in specifically desgined areas to get food to eat and survive) is different enough feature on Minecraft from the regular Build perm that it should have its own perm

So only food blocks
Definitely:
Wheat
Carrot
Potato
Melons (Not the stem though)

Maybe:
Sugarcane
Pumpkin
Cocoa

Maybe maybe
Mushrooms
Netherwart

 

[Madus]

Realistically speaking, Slippery Slope doesnt apply here

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The point is, that this specific permission might simply not be enough. There can be other usecases where another set of blocks apply. This might not be a complete solution.

you cant deny that farming is a specific feature on Minecraft that is unique from tree farming or mining. I dont think any one would ask for another perm to mine ores in faction land when you can just go out into the wilderness. Trees too (plus trees are used in builds anyway so you cant risk allowing access to that). The difference is that food farms are an actual thing that people in minecraft build and maintain for the specific purpose of constantly breaking and rebreaking these specific blocks to eat and survive.

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I simply disagree. People could very well have a tree farm within their claims, and thus tree farming is very comparable to crops.

So only food blocks
Definitely:
Wheat
Carrot
Potato
Melons (Not the stem though)

Maybe:
Sugarcane
Pumpkin
Cocoa

Maybe maybe
Mushrooms
Netherwart

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Even here there is an issue. I would consider all of the above farming materials, including the stem. If people don't even agree on that, it is going to be difficult to add perms that fits everyone.

 

[Nulshi]

The point is, that this specific permission might simply not be enough. There can be other usecases where another set of blocks apply. This might not be a complete solution.

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Other than tree farming, I cant really think of another case where people will need to constantly break the same set of blocks in claimed land. Im just saying that farming by itself is a significantly unique activity, i mean its whole purpose is to design an area specifically for repeatedly breaking blocks.
Again realistically, i dont think people are gonna see this in terms of "sets of blocks". theyre more likely to see it as "farming". Ive been on other faction servers where they only allow you to break crops and it works fine. hell, it might even encourage travel because then you'd have a perm that can allow other facs and travellers to get food on your land.

I simply disagree. People could very well have a tree farm within their claims, and thus tree farming is very comparable to crops.

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Yes, but is this really a reason against the suggestion tho? The whole point of this is to make a perm that lets people get food but not mess up builds.

Plus, most important point, theres one special thing that separates food farms from other types of farms: the Hunger Bar. Thats an actual unique Minecraft game mechanic that farms are meant for. You dont necessarily need trees to survive but you do need food. And I think this would be a good addition for the faction plugin itself so it can be used on other servers, not just MassiveCraft.

I would consider all of the above farming materials, including the stem.

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Thats fine, really, I never really said they shouldn't be added or disagreed with anyone, tbh I would like them all too, I was only listed blocks that should definitely be prioritized and guaranteed to be on the list of "farming" blocks. i just said not the stems so people cant grief your melon farms but thats a minor point and you can ignore i said that and add them all for all I care. If faction players knew a farming perm was gonna be added, I dont think anyone is gonna be superpissed that the list of farm blocks includes mushrooms.

 

[Legoclub22]

Could they also have a chunk permission for certain blocks?
i.e. /f permission block [block(;more blocks)] [etc.]
Therefore you could allow people in this chunk access to stone, because it's the quarry, but they can't break cobblestone or ladders, which get you down.

 

[Sephite]

Could they also have a chunk permission for certain blocks?
i.e. /f permission block [block(;more blocks)] [etc.]
Therefore you could allow people in this chunk access to stone, because it's the quarry, but they can't break cobblestone or ladders, which get you down.

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This would indeed be very useful, but it's not necessary to get rid of the problem that factions need to give their members/recruits too much power in order for them to be able to farm food.
I can honestly live without the "great and big" solution if just the suggested farming blocks above would be considered for this idea. As I said before: We don't really need permissions to other blocks, because you can mine and cut wood in the wilderness.
(Especially for mining I like to change my chunks, even if they reset - which they wouldn't anymore if they are claimed and part of your faction. Imagine 10 people mining in the same few chunks all the time - there wouldn't be much left to mine anyway. Of course you can claim more land to make a bigger mine on faction grounds, but where is the point when people can just go out and dig wherever they want in the wilderness?)

 

[Arvallon]

Alright...
This whole problem is exactly one of the reasons I suggested my idea on improving the /f access command to support ranks.

It all comes down to managability. We don't want to risk too much of our faction to the possible damige new recruits can do. Which is very understandable... Prevention is better than correction. But eventualy you do have to risk something to get a proper reward. Restrict your recruits too much. And they will not enjoy your faction. Risk too much... and a single recruit can undo your faction. We want a balance. And I believe I found one.

My current solution to this crisis:
*Homes:
I build a seperate recruiting village for my newest members. Each member gets 1 chuck with a prebuild home. Access to all the home chunks are disabled for my faction. So no member or recruit has access to a specific house other than the actual owner. Risk: The recruit can tear down the house and ravage one chunk.
*Farms:
I dedicated one chunk as Farmland for my recruits. The Farmland also has a small tree farm ontop with a capacity of 9 small trees. (oak)
Each recruit is given specific access to this chunk. (with the improved access command I can later expand this to several chunks and several services)(It will also then automatically assign recruits to that chunk instead of manualy for each recruit) Risk: Recruits have the power to destroy and ravage those specific chunks.
*Other resources:
I build dedicated portals to several biomes across aloria. This grants them quick access to the enviroments that contain the resources they need. I only need to claim one chunk to keep the portal/resource outpost safe. Risk: NONE

This is as secured as it can get. Ontop of that... As far as I recall its forbidden to join a faction for the purpose of stealing from that faction. Griefing is also an offence not permitted on massivecraft. These rules provide aditional ensurance to keep your base safe. And warn potential thieves and griefers of the concequences that follow if they violate these rules.

All in all. Having a dedicated permission for just farming is highly unnessesary in my opinion. If your afraid of loosing your farm. Make sure you got the materials to fix it. Cause otherwise there is no other way to protect the farm other then only allowing you to use it. Which kills the purpouse of having a farm for recruits.

Is food farming different from tree farming/mining? YES
Food farming can only be done inside faction terrain. The other two.... You can let people wander off into the wilderness for gathering the needed materials. If you realy want a tree farm inside your faction. You need to take the risk of allowing people to abuse the chunks the farm is in.

And as a last note: Is this all realy that big of a risk or issue to begin with?

 

[Sephite]

Without going too much into detail, I just want to state that I'm not worried about recruits tearing down our buildings or farms. That can be rebuild again and I'm happy to take that risk anytime. What I'm worried about is what recruits build on these chunks. Sometimes it's easier to have someone for some time in your faction to be able to explain them why for example an automated wheat farm working with water pushing the wheat into a hopper is not a good idea.

On top of all that I believe that the risks you are taking as faction (no I didn't mention the ones that really concern me here - our techies know them already) are far heavier than giving someone simply the possibility to gather some food and thus I still think this idea is brilliant and should be implemented.

 

[Legoclub22]

Restrict your recruits too much. And they will not enjoy your faction. Risk too much... and a single recruit can undo your faction.

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Couldn't agree with you more, so then why do both happen to me? XD
;-;

 

[Sephite]

Restrict your recruits too much. And they will not enjoy your faction. Risk too much... and a single recruit can undo your faction.

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Couldn't agree with you more, so then why do both happen to me? XD
;-;

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That's exactly the point. I don't want to restrict them too much, that's why this feature to be able to let them gather food without having to worry too much about other things, would be simply great.

 

[Arvallon]

That's exactly the point. I don't want to restrict them too much, that's why this feature to be able to let them gather food without having to worry too much about other things, would be simply great.

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Thats basically the same thing what "giving them /f access" does. It just gives them more than just farming.
(I don't presume that this is the case but: If your concerned about it taking too much effort adding every recruit to the farm chunk, this is getting improved on once they expand on the /f access element)

On top of all that I believe that the risks you are taking as faction are far heavier than giving someone simply the possibility to gather some food and thus I still think this idea is brilliant and should be implemented.

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What greater risks? The only thing they can do is demolish that farm chunk.

 

[Nulshi]

What greater risks? The only thing they can do is demolish that farm chunk.

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What if u cant or dont want to dedicate an entire chunk to farming alone? Especially since we have limited claim power.

And the key difference between this and chunk access is so people can have access to these specific blocks no matter where they are instead access to everything in a whole chunk. What if your farm chunks are also shared with other stuff that you dont want people to access? Like if you built your farm on top of your underground storage or if you built your farm inside a castle so the farm is on the ground floor but you have other stuff on the other floors you dont want people to access.

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[Nulshi]

or think of it from another angle. instead of thinking about what it prevents, think about what it allows you to do. have more freedom and creativity with farms. So instead of just having a square farm limited to one chunk, you could have rooftop farms or smaller farms placed throughout your faction land or other different shaped farms..

 

[Arvallon]

What if u cant or dont want to dedicate an entire chunk to farming alone? Especially since we have limited claim power.

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Limited claim power? Excuse me but... one member can have 20 chucks of land... My intire recruit town exists of exactly just that (if you don't count the chunks I claimed for the protective walls) I have room for 16 recruits. And I can also provide them with a chunk for farming. A chunk with shops in. There was even room for a donation area aswel as some news boards to be setup. And lastly I got 1 chunk dedicated for lifestock.

And if you want to use your farming chunk for more than just farming, then you can. I used the chunk for both farming and tree farming. (I put the tree farm ontop)

or think of it from another angle. instead of thinking about what it prevents, think about what it allows you to do. have more freedom and creativity with farms. So instead of just having a square farm limited to one chunk, you could have rooftop farms or smaller farms placed throughout your faction land or other different shaped farms..

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If you want rooftop farms then why need this addon at all? Just let recruits build farms ontop of their homes and you no longer need a public farm for recruits. Cause they all already have one for themselves.
If you want other shaped farms, then you can have those. Just give them more chunks to farm on. And then you can create whatever shape you want. (with the main improvement to the overall plugin this will become as easy as claiming terrain)

Let me remind you that these are your recruits were talking about. NOT your members. They stay in these homes for a while and then progress to the point where they are trustworthy and get access to most faction services. You don't need to give them all the luxary like a nice town with plants and farms everywhere trough a costum build town.

A simple solution has already been given. It doesn't cost much. Neither do you run any big risks. You want it to look nice? Then be willing to put some more effort into it aswel.

The question that remains here is...Do we REALY need this addon? or are there alternative solutions to the main issue? (which hasn't actualy been stated realy? ) (I gues if we knew what the real problem was we would be able to more effectively address it.) My answer to that question is yes. There are other ways to solve this. And we do not need this. How nice the idea of it may sound.

 

[Sephite]

The question that remains here is...Do we REALY need this addon? or are there alternative solutions to the main issue? (which hasn't actualy been stated realy? ) (I gues if we knew what the real problem was we would be able to more effectively address it.) My answer to that question is yes. There are other ways to solve this. And we do not need this. How nice the idea of it may sound.

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This is the area where you suggest ideas which make the server better and more fun to play. We don't have this addon right now and we still survive and we would continue to survive the way we do now, BUT this idea would make life easier for factions and apparently doesn't take much to implement from the technical side, so why should it not be added?

 

[Nulshi]

This is the area where you suggest ideas which make the server better and more fun to play. We don't have this addon right now and we still survive and we would continue to survive the way we do now, BUT this idea would make life easier for factions and apparently doesn't take much to implement from the technical side, so why should it not be added?

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exactly, my thoughts word for word. The server is what it is right now. Suggestions are suggestions, theyre extra until they actually get implemented. Theres a lot of things you dont really need, but the point of suggestions is to make things better. Suggestions dont have to be about big problems to be suggested. if it gets rejected, fine, things stay the same and everyone moves on. But if it does get added, dont you think that would make things better?

You have to ask. do you have reasons against this suggestion? Are you gonna be pissed if it gets implemented?

 

[Arvallon]

exactly, my thoughts word for word. The server is what it is right now. Suggestions are suggestions, theyre extra until they actually get implemented. Theres a lot of things you dont really need, but the point of suggestions is to make things better. Suggestions dont have to be about big problems to be suggested. if it gets rejected, fine, things stay the same and everyone moves on. But if it does get added, dont you think that would make things better?

You have to ask. do you have reasons against this suggestion? Are you gonna be pissed if it gets implemented?

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I know that its intended to make things better. But what I am implying is that it doesn't change much. And that it indeed is something we don't realy need. I don't get pissed off about something that easily. In all truth I find this too little of a thing to get pissed about. But it is also the reason why I don't see the point of adding it in.

We can already build farms as you all intend to make em. The only thing you want to do with this is remove the ability of recruits to make any changes to the farms besides the crops. I see this more as a downside rather than a good one. My reason for this is that everything recruits have access to, Everything they can demolish is a honeypot. If they break it down, then I know that I shouldn't trust them. If they demolish the homes I give them, Or the farms I provide them with. Then I know who are not to promote to member.

If we are to take this all away. And litteraly only allow them to do, what you want to allow them to do. How can you ever learn to trust them to not go over the line when they 'are' given access to things they can demolish? So thats why I see no point in using it. And therefore no point in adding it.

If you still want it. I won't stand in your way. This is just what I think of it. And I will leave it at that.

 

[Omnomivore]

At this point in time this suggestion is rejected.

Tech staff are currently working on further factions customization. Pending these updates, feel free to suggest additions or edits once factions permissions are updated.