Archived Dwarvish And Elvish Ideas

[indyfan98]

So, the languages of Massivecraft are based off of real world languages, as I am sure you all know. We have Common, Alt-Regalish, D'Ithani, etc. Each based off of English, German, French, etc. I assume the Seraph spoke Latin. However, what do the Dwarves and Elves speak. I have posted a few threads about a Dwarvin in language, but they never took off. From what I heard, Dwarvish and Elvish are just the languages in Lord of the Rings. Well, those are nice and all, but they aren't full fledged languages, now are they? Plus ripping something like that straight out from LoTR seems kind of cheap. So, I propose this:

Dwarvish and Elvish should be based off of real world languages too. Since Khuzdul in LoTR is based off of real world Hebrew, why not make Dwarvish be Romanized (written with the Latin alphabet) Hebrew? It is a full fledged language, and fully use able.

Hebrew sounds very odd to our ears. It does not sound like any language we are used to. It doesn't sound European, Asian, African, Aboriginal. You never hear it. It would suit the long isolated Dwarves who spent many years below ground, isolated from humanity and the elves. It would only make sense that their language would sound a little odd to our Westernized ears.

Years underground with no wood to make paper would leave people to carve stone, making the Hebrew symbols the perfect lettering for the Dwarves anyways. It just all makes sense. At least to me it does.

But what about Elvish? Well, the Elves did rule both Ithania and Daendroc, and they speak both French and Spanish respectively. Hmmm... Well, what is a real world language that combines the two?

Well, for you geography buffs out there, between both French and Spain in a very small country. It is called Andorra. Their language is called "Catalan." It is also spoken in Catalonia, a region in Spain.

Catalan is similar to both French and Spanish. It is similar to both in nature. So, the Elves could speak real world Catalan. It would make sense and explain where the languages of both Ithania and Daendroc came from, even though they are right next to each other. Very simple, actually.

So, there you have it. Dwarvish and Elvish given an identity. Real life Hebrew and Catalan. In then end, I think that the explanations I gave explain why I used these for their languages. To me, it all just makes sense. If you have a better idea for a language for these two races, state them in the comments below. Until then, have a very Massive day!

 

[indyfan98]

Do you guys have any other ideas for races that need official languages? List them here as well.

 

[Absorbius]

The Thylan language. Yes, it would be easy to use a real life language for it, but that would render my work obsolete.

You see, I've made a Thylan language. With over 1,000 words; and a translator. So, it would be a bit of a bummer if an already established language would be used.

 

[Miss_Confined]

Well, I see a flaw in this. I'm a dwarf woman. And I'm a Christian-- I've never read nor do I understand Hebrew. How the fudge am I supposed to say/write/other things involving Hebrew if I'm a dwarf? I don't see why we need to incorporate Real Life Religions to role-play because:

A) Some people don't understand different writings/the language of religions.
B) Some people might get offended and such. (Not me, I don't care except for the fact I don't understand Hebrew, but y'know.)
C) There's LOTR languages that some Elf roleplayers use, and then there's a Dwarven LOTR language available if needed and whatnot.

Why bring different real life religions/religious dialect or writing into Massivecraft roleplaying?

 

[LordSylveon]

@ConfinedPandora Brings up an excellent point. Why not just use the languages used by LOTR?

 

[Miss_Confined]

From what I heard, Dwarvish and Elvish are just the languages in Lord of the Rings. Well, those are nice and all, but they aren't full fledged languages, now are they? Plus ripping something like that straight out from LoTR seems kind of cheap. So, I propose this:

Dwarvish and Elvish should be based off of real world languages too. Since Khuzdul in LoTR is based off of real world Hebrew, why not make Dwarvish be Romanized (written with the Latin alphabet) Hebrew? It is a full fledged language, and fully use able.

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Though I completely agree, there's his reasoning.

@ConfinedPandora Brings up an excellent point. Why not just use the languages used by LOTR?

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[LordSylveon]

Though I completely agree, there's his reasoning.

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Fair enough, though if LOTR dwarven and elvish are based off of real world languages, wouldn't they be guilty of the same?
In my opinion, its up to the elven and dwarven communities as to what languages they use. If I were to do a dwarven character (and I am debating it) I would likely use a more nordic rune system and language, but that's mainly due to my perception of them as more Nordic than Hebrew or anything else (in tradition and language).

 

[Miss_Confined]

Fair enough, though if LOTR dwarven and elvish are based off of real world languages, wouldn't they be guilty of the same?
In my opinion, its up to the elven and dwarven communities as to what languages they use. If I were to do a dwarven character (and I am debating it) I would likely use a more nordic rune system and language, but that's mainly due to my perception of them as more Nordic than Hebrew or anything else (in tradition and language).

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I just speak a bit like this. Depending on conversation otherwise just Common Tongue as my character is uneducated.

"What's wrong wit' ye'? Th' cat caught yer' tongue, lass?"

Something along those lines I think.

 

[TheBatman1016]

I agree with this because the languages spoken in LOTR are not fully planned out, and lacks many translations. On the other hand, IRL languages have many translators, and a well-developed language. Plus to add on to Confined's point of not speaking hebrew- I don't think he expects anyone to speak hebrew, I mean, do you speak Tolkein Elvish or Dwarvish? It will just be easier to translate via goolge translate etc.

 

[MetalMaxima]

Well, I see a flaw in this. I'm a dwarf woman. And I'm a Christian-- I've never read nor do I understand Hebrew. How the fudge am I supposed to say/write/other things involving Hebrew if I'm a dwarf? I don't see why we need to incorporate Real Life Religions to role-play because:

A) Some people don't understand different writings/the language of religions.
B) Some people might get offended and such. (Not me, I don't care except for the fact I don't understand Hebrew, but y'know.)
C) There's LOTR languages that some Elf roleplayers use, and then there's a Dwarven LOTR language available if needed and whatnot.

Why bring different real life religions/religious dialect or writing into Massivecraft roleplaying?

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You do realize that Hebrew is a language and it does not pertain to religion at all.

 

[indyfan98]

Well, I see a flaw in this. I'm a dwarf woman. And I'm a Christian-- I've never read nor do I understand Hebrew. How the fudge am I supposed to say/write/other things involving Hebrew if I'm a dwarf? I don't see why we need to incorporate Real Life Religions to role-play because:

A) Some people don't understand different writings/the language of religions.
B) Some people might get offended and such. (Not me, I don't care except for the fact I don't understand Hebrew, but y'know.)
C) There's LOTR languages that some Elf roleplayers use, and then there's a Dwarven LOTR language available if needed and whatnot.

Why bring different real life religions/religious dialect or writing into Massivecraft roleplaying?

Click to shrink...

Hebrew is not just the language spoken by the Jews. Plus, I don't understand French, but D'Ithani is French and I played an Ithanian character. In don't understand Khuzdul, but I play a dwarf. Just look up a few basic words and phrases. Also, the Qadir speak Arabic, but it doesn't mean they are Muslim. A language may be associated with a religion, but it doesn't matter, because you can be any religion and speak any language. Hebrew is just the language Khuzdul is based off of.

 

[indyfan98]

@ConfinedPandora Brings up an excellent point. Why not just use the languages used by LOTR?

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Because the languages in LoTR are not only just partial languages, but using them is almost like plagerism. Taking Tolkien's languages. Hebrew and Catalan are full languages for those who want to learn them or already speak them. Plus, you can use Google translate for both if you want to be lazy.

 

[indyfan98]

Fair enough, though if LOTR dwarven and elvish are based off of real world languages, wouldn't they be guilty of the same?
In my opinion, its up to the elven and dwarven communities as to what languages they use. If I were to do a dwarven character (and I am debating it) I would likely use a more nordic rune system and language, but that's mainly due to my perception of them as more Nordic than Hebrew or anything else (in tradition and language).

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Well, I just did some research for Catalan. The Elvish language is just it's own thing in LoTR. To counter your point, most languages are based off of real world ones on Massive. These would just add to that.

 

[indyfan98]

The Thylan language. Yes, it would be easy to use a real life language for it, but that would render my work obsolete.

You see, I've made a Thylan language. With over 1,000 words; and a translator. So, it would be a bit of a bummer if an already established language would be used.

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Well, your language can still be used, as there are many, /many/, aboriginal languages. But the thylans speak any language of the native Australian and New Zealandian Aboriginal tribes.

 

[HydraLana]

Well, your language can still be used, as there are many, /many/, aboriginal languages. But the thylans speak any language of the native Australian and New Zealandian Aboriginal tribes.

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Well, I think that if she has created her own language for the race, it should be the official one because it seem's that she has put a large amount of her personal time into it. Over 1000 words, wow @Lamdax, that is just amazing.​

 

[indyfan98]

Well, I think that if she has created her own language for the race, it should be the official one because it seem's that she has put a large amount of her personal time into it. Over 1000 words, wow @Lamdax, that is just amazing.​

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Very true... Well, I would suggest showing the lore staff.

 

[Miss_Confined]

You do realize that Hebrew is a language and it does not pertain to religion at all.

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Because the languages in LoTR are not only just partial languages, but using them is almost like plagerism. Taking Tolkien's languages. Hebrew and Catalan are full languages for those who want to learn them or already speak them. Plus, you can use Google translate for both if you want to be lazy.

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Google Translate is a fairly unreliable source. I don't recommend it. Also, can you show me- as a going into high school student, where the fudge I can learn Hebrew? They don't offer it at the high school, and why would I learn Hebrew if I have no other use for it other than to use it for my Dwarf. I don't understand why you are so persistent in using Hebrew. Why not do something more common? I have never had any teaching in Hebrew and honestly it looks like it'd take me a few //years// to learn it and try to crappily pull it off.
And far as religion goes with Hebrew, NONE of the non - Jewish kids in my town know Hebrew unless their the small possibility. I automatically assumed from my town and the way my community works and such that non - Jewish (I.e; Christian Muslim etc. Etc.) Religions didn't know Hebrew.
So to provide more evidence on my side, Can you please be wonderful and show me where I can learn the entire Hebrew language? I don't see why we have to have Hebrew. Heck I am/was an elf and I'm a dwarf. A lot of roleplayers and I used LOTR languages and if they published translators for people's enjoyment is it //really// plagerism?

Maybe @Shayin or @Ryciera or another staff member could verify if it is actually plagerism?

 

[Terence29]

I am just going to drop this link here and be on my way again.
http://wiki.massivecraft.com/Daendroque_Catala

 

[indyfan98]

Google Translate is a fairly unreliable source. I don't recommend it. Also, can you show me- as a going into high school student, where the fudge I can learn Hebrew? They don't offer it at the high school, and why would I learn Hebrew if I have no other use for it other than to use it for my Dwarf. I don't understand why you are so persistent in using Hebrew. Why not do something more common? I have never had any teaching in Hebrew and honestly it looks like it'd take me a few //years// to learn it and try to crappily pull it off.
And far as religion goes with Hebrew, NONE of the non - Jewish kids in my town know Hebrew unless their the small possibility. I automatically assumed from my town and the way my community works and such that non - Jewish (I.e; Christian Muslim etc. Etc.) Religions didn't know Hebrew.
So to provide more evidence on my side, Can you please be wonderful and show me where I can learn the entire Hebrew language? I don't see why we have to have Hebrew. Heck I am/was an elf and I'm a dwarf. A lot of roleplayers and I used LOTR languages and if they published translators for people's enjoyment is it //really// plagerism?

Maybe @Shayin or @Ryciera or another staff member could verify if it is actually plagerism?

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I used the word plagerism because I couldn't think of another word. It is not /true/ plagerism. Also, you don't need to speak the whole Hebrew language. Just a few simple words, and only if you so choose. Here are a few words:
Shalom: Hello
Boker to: Good morning
Shimi... : My name is...
Layla tov;: Goodbye or goodnight

Do you speak the entire language of Khuzdul from LoTR? I don't think so. The language you character speaks doesn't need to be a language you speak. Most rpers use Google translate anyways. You are acting like this is the only language you would be allowed to speak. If you don't like it, don't use it. I am merely giving those who want to use it an alternative to Khuzdul that they can use. I don't think anyone on the server speaks Khuzdul, and most people who have a character who speaks D'Ithani or Alt-Regalish don't speak French or German themselves. Just use the phrases you need, and use Common the rest of the time.

 

[babbleboi]

Google Translate is a fairly unreliable source. I don't recommend it. Also, can you show me- as a going into high school student, where the fudge I can learn Hebrew? They don't offer it at the high school, and why would I learn Hebrew if I have no other use for it other than to use it for my Dwarf. I don't understand why you are so persistent in using Hebrew. Why not do something more common? I have never had any teaching in Hebrew and honestly it looks like it'd take me a few //years// to learn it and try to crappily pull it off.
And far as religion goes with Hebrew, NONE of the non - Jewish kids in my town know Hebrew unless their the small possibility. I automatically assumed from my town and the way my community works and such that non - Jewish (I.e; Christian Muslim etc. Etc.) Religions didn't know Hebrew.
So to provide more evidence on my side, Can you please be wonderful and show me where I can learn the entire Hebrew language? I don't see why we have to have Hebrew. Heck I am/was an elf and I'm a dwarf. A lot of roleplayers and I used LOTR languages and if they published translators for people's enjoyment is it //really// plagerism?

Maybe @Shayin or @Ryciera or another staff member could verify if it is actually plagerism?

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You don't need to learn the entire language..I mean, honestly, no one learned all of french or anything; just a little here and there to pull it off, like the little things you do, to pull off the "D'Ithanie" accent or something, with the odd word such as Merci, Monsieur, Mademoiselle, bonjoir, bonsoir, that's actually french.

 

[Magivore]

๖ۣۜOne could always just do as such what @The Shadow King and his band of Nagas did, and just write it from scratch. They originally had based the speech of Nagaian from Japanese, Korean and Chinese, but ended up altering syllables and letters so it can actually become original. Yes, it might take time, but history nor language was exactly written in a day. Spend some time thinking and working, instead of plucking a real language into it. It's easier to pluck it, but sometimes isn't as fun.

You do realize that Hebrew is a language and it does not pertain to religion at all.

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And, Hebrew is the language used in the teachings of the bible. In a way, people connect it to Christianity because that is one of the more common forms we see it from.

 

[HydraLana]

๖ۣۜOne could always just do as such what @The Shadow King and his band of Nagas did, and just write it from scratch. They originally had based the speech of Nagaian from Japanese, Korean and Chinese, but ended up altering syllables and letters so it can actually become original. Yes, it might take time, but history nor language was exactly written in a day. Spend some time thinking and working, instead of plucking a real language into it. It's easier to pluck it, but sometimes isn't as fun.

And, Hebrew is the language used in the teachings of the bible. In a way, people connect it to Christianity because that is one of the more common forms we see it from.

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Well, we are now writing a good and proper language...I think, what we did was more of a code than a real language.

 

[Shayin]

@indyfan98
You are so wrong with many of your statements I'm only going to outline the basics.
Elves, while they can speak French and Spanish as culturally they would be close, would more than likely never do so. The Elves used Elvish, go figure. The Elves are so proud they likely would not use French or Spanish, as the human population who used both are ancestors of the slaves of the Elven Empire. No Elf would use Spanish or French practically, if at all.

The official languages for Elvish and Dwarvish in Massivecraft Lore are Elvish as appeared in Tolkien's works, and Dwarvish as appeared in Tolkien's works. The Lore Department has decided on this and I don't think this decision will change.
Tolkien based his languages off of IRL languages and cultures. He said so himself, though I am paraphrasing, "I wrote the languages first, then based my characters and stories off of them." Tolkien, for a time in his life, did nothing but make up languages. He did it professionally and Elvish and Dwarvish were no exception. I am unsure if he ever released a full dictionary or guide to either language but there are many translators that you can use.

For Elvish, I recommend:
http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/angora5/Translator.html
http://www.grey-company.org/Circle/language/phrase.htm#greetings

For Dwarvish, I recommend (Though I haven't ever used these):
http://www.scribd.com/doc/98388264/Khuzdul-Dictionary-K-E-v01-JUN12
http://www.scribd.com/doc/98387422/Khuzdul-Dictionary-E-K-v01-JUN12
http://www.stoneandsteelguildhall.com/dictionary.html

I am sure there are other good translators as well.

We welcome ideas but this topic has been discussed many times here on the forums and I am positive that we are not about to change these languages.

 

[TheBatman1016]

@indyfan98
You are so wrong with many of your statements I'm only going to outline the basics.
Elves, while they can speak French and Spanish as culturally they would be close, would more than likely never do so. The Elves used Elvish, go figure. The Elves are so proud they likely would not use French or Spanish, as the human population who used both are ancestors of the slaves of the Elven Empire. No Elf would use Spanish or French practically, if at all.

The official languages for Elvish and Dwarvish in Massivecraft Lore are Elvish as appeared in Tolkien's works, and Dwarvish as appeared in Tolkien's works. The Lore Department has decided on this and I don't think this decision will change.
Tolkien based his languages off of IRL languages and cultures. He said so himself, though I am paraphrasing, "I wrote the languages first, then based my characters and stories off of them." Tolkien, for a time in his life, did nothing but make up languages. He did it professionally and Elvish and Dwarvish were no exception. I am unsure if he ever released a full dictionary or guide to either language but there are many translators that you can use.

For Elvish, I recommend:
http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/angora5/Translator.html
http://www.grey-company.org/Circle/language/phrase.htm#greetings

For Dwarvish, I recommend (Though I haven't ever used these):
http://www.scribd.com/doc/98388264/Khuzdul-Dictionary-K-E-v01-JUN12
http://www.scribd.com/doc/98387422/Khuzdul-Dictionary-E-K-v01-JUN12
http://www.stoneandsteelguildhall.com/dictionary.html

I am sure there are other good translators as well.

We welcome ideas but this topic has been discussed many times here on the forums and I am positive that we are not about to change these languages.

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I have attempted to use those sites for my elvish character, but as I have pointed out earlier they lack an enormous amount of info. Greycompany only gives phrases, and angel fire cannot translate a vast amount of words.

 

[Piergrin]

The Tolkien elves spoke Quenya as a high language and Sindarin as elvish common. I believe both were based off Finnish/Danish. I have run elven RP guilds for two decades, and we always used Sindarin pleasantries. I was even able to understand much of the elvish spoken in the LotR movies without subtitles.

Also, it should be noted that Tolkien's current heirs have publicly stated that anyone, including authors, are welcome to use these languages so long as they do not attempt to profit from specific language dictionaries, translators, learning tapes, etc.

Also also, Quenya, Sindarin, and Khuzdul were either never completed or largely lost with many of Tolkien's papers. As such, they cannot be used as a full language. I actually find that using occasional phrases to give flavor is far more comfortable and inclusive for an MMO RP environment than attempting to use an entire language that most people have no hope of understanding.