Dice And You - The Art Of Combat

Magivore

Magivore

No Rest For The Wicked
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It's been a long time since proficiency and dice have been introduced to MassiveCraft, whether it be for a brief gamble, the deciding of combat, or just trolling your friends with a roll from 1 to 42069420. However, what there hasn't been a solid introduction of is a 'correct' (or in my opinion, balanced) system of points and numbers that will allow all forms of players to have what they desire: results that are completely fair and understandable without a need for argument. I will be covering multiple forms of combat I have seen thus far, comment on what is both right and wrong about them, and lastly, I will offer moderate solutions for if conflicts are to arise. This is entirely up to my opinion, but I decided that I should contribute as much as anyone else. For these systems, I will assume that rolling the highest value doesn't mean that you draw blood, but that you hit your opponent. This means that people wearing armour may be hit by your sword, but their armour might deflect or minimize the blow. The systems included below are the ones I could find a direct link to, have personally seen in Regalia, or know exist, and haven't yet been able to see it in use. Keep in mind that I may be wrong about certain systems, as I'm limited to what I can understand at first glance.

Let's get rolling!

Note: if you don't want to read all the other rolling systems and want to get right to the source, just ignore the spoiler and get right to cracking at my idea to criticize or use.

you animal.
  1. The Honour System
    1. The only rule is "don't be stupid and we can settle this like humans." Maybe once in a while the duelists will roll 1-20, the highest number wins, but it usually is settled entirely by emotes and what the players feel is "right." This is best to use when the environment is extremely shaky, weapons are constantly changing, or there are variables such as an arm being missing that leaves rolling to be completely illogical to use. This system always plays a key part in other systems, especially when ties or unrealistic scenarios occur, going so far as even negating rolls entirely for the sake of the plot (which should always matter more than just winning your fight). If a player doesn't have an approved app, always choose what you think is best to stay fair in battle.
  2. The Bellator Dueling System (OUTDATED)
    1. In this system, players are against one other individual in which they are rolling for solely the higher value. Their emote may have weight on the amount of damage caused, but no matter what it is, the higher number (whether it be a natural 1 versus a natural 2 or a natural 4 against an unnatural 37) will win. Here is how the system appears to be handled:
      1. Primary Weapon Proficiency +
      2. Secondary Weapon (if applicable) Proficiency +
      3. Acrobatics +
      4. 20 =
      5. Results
        1. An example will be provided below.
          1. +10 Shortsword
          2. +10 Large Shield
          3. +10 Acrobatics
          4. +20
          5. /roll 1 50
    2. While this may naturally seem fair, the numbers become fairly imbalanced when you begin fighting people of much higher level.
      1. An example will be provided below.
        1. +10 Longsword VERSUS +50 Shortsword
        2. +10 Large Shield VERSUS +0 (none, unarmed irrelevant since it's not being used)
        3. +0 (no Acrobatics) VERSUS +14 Acrobatics
        4. +20 VERSUS +20
        5. /roll 1 40 VERSUS /roll 1 84
    3. See the issue here? While the person using the Longsword and Large Shield should naturally beat someone who is using a simple Shortsword with fast moves, the Shortsword grandmastery and beyond has caused the second individual to roll literally more than twice what makes logical sense. This makes it virtually impossible for the first individual to win despite the circumstances stating that his defense and range is too high for the individual with the Shortsword to reach him. While this could work for duelists who have very similar stats, even so much as champion versus grandmaster can cause a huge gap in the chance of success. There is also no correct system for ranged attacks. Nevertheless, this is currently the most popular, and at the moment, most effective use of dice in combative situations.
  3. The Flat d20 System
    1. I don't see many people using this system still, but there is still the odd person who prefers this over others. In comparison to the others I will make an example of, this system is a raw 1-20 contesting of ability.
      1. Roll 1 - 20.
        1. An example will be provided below.
          1. /roll 1 20 VERSUS /roll 1 20.
    2. Right off the bat, you can see there's already a huge issue here. Proficiency skills are completely ignored, and while that might be fine to some individuals who have characters instead of mindless soldiers, this completely negates the logical ability a highly trained knight would have in comparison to an angry peasant swinging a wooden tree branch like a club. This, however, is oddly enough a popular system that individuals use for defending or attacking with ranged attacks. While not uncommon for archers and the likes, it's still an unfair system that doesn't focus on skill.
  4. The Maths and Dice System
    1. This system is a combination of the two provided above. However, this can almost be considered a bastardized version of the two since it uses proficiency, but very vaguely.
      1. Roll 1 - 20.
      2. Add the proficiency of the attacking weapon / weapons.
        1. An example will be provided below.
          1. /roll 1 20 VERSUS /roll 1 20.
          2. Count attacking weapon proficiency (only one) VERSUS count defending weapon proficiency (only one).
          3. Add result + proficiency VERSUS add result + proficiency.
    2. This system is very unfair, making it impossible for duel-wielders, shields, acrobatics, or ranged attacks to be factored. Nevertheless, this system has been used multiple times by people who get in 1v1 melee combats.
  5. Jarrett's System of Hundreds
    1. One of the first guides provided when proficiency became a thing to combine with dice was produced by @JarrettdaCarrot . This was an easy system that works very similarly to the Maths and Dice System, but it makes the rolling range much larger.
      1. Rolling 1 - 100.
      2. Add the proficiency of the attacking weapon / weapons.
        1. An example will be provided below.
        2. /roll 1 100 VERSUS /roll 1 100.
        3. Count attacking weapon proficiency (only one) VERSUS count defending weapon proficiency (only one.)
        4. Add result + proficiency VERSUS add result + proficiency.
    2. While this system does minimize the gap between champions and grandmasters to allow lesser-skilled individuals a chance of rolling really high when the opponent rolls really low, it suffers the same drawbacks as the system it's based off of. Duel-wielders, shields, acrobatics, and ranged weapons can't truly be factored unless players mutually agree with rules on scene.
  • The Twos and Fives System
    • This particular style is more complicated than the ones listed in the spoiler, but this is a combination of suggestions I've collected from different players, including my own contribution. As a matter of fact, it even pulls from the Bellator's dueling system. The example below will sum it up in total, both using the ranged and melee systems.
      • Primary Weapon Proficiency (+2 per 5 points) +
      • Secondary Weapon (if applicable) Proficiency (+2 per 5 points) +
      • Acrobatics (+2 per 5 points) +
      • Large Shields (+1 permanently when equipped, can stack (but you're dumb to have more than one)) +
      • 20 =
      • Results
        • An example will be provided below for melee.
          • +10 Shortsword (+4) VERSUS +43 Longsword (+16)
          • +10 Short Shield (+4) VERSUS +5 Large Shield (+2)
          • +0 Acrobatics (+0) VERSUS +0 Acrobatics (+0)
          • +0 Large Shield Bonus (+0) VERSUS +1 Large Shield Bonus (+1)
          • +20 VERSUS +20
          • /roll 1 28 VERSUS /roll 1 39
        • An example will be provided below for ranged.
          • Ranged Attack VERSUS Defender's Shield / Acrobatics (+2 per 5 points) +
          • +0 VERSUS Large shields (+1 permanently when equipped, can stack (but you're dumb if you have more than one)) +
          • 20 =
          • Results (ranged attacker winning delivers damage, ranged defender winning does nothing)
            • +20 Pavisa Crossbow (+8) VERSUS +5 Acrobatics (+2)
            • +0 VERSUS +7 Short Shield (+2)
            • +0 VERSUS +0 Large shield Bonus (+0)
            • +20 VERSUS +20
            • /roll 1 28 VERSUS 1 24
    • On to the criticism. As you can see with this system, it obviously relies on the person scoring the highest roll with proficiency points (only +5 points per +2 to roll) causing the rolls to increase in count. There is also a stone system set in for people who are being shot at, giving the person firing a slight (but significant) increase in hit-chance in comparison to someone who is trying to attack. This also closes the gap between a grandmaster and a warrior, making it possible for the warrior to beat the master while still giving a grandmaster a very comfortably large bonus to ensure that they will naturally be more successful than those unskilled, even with 'average' results. What is important to note is that, using this systems, counters cannot be factored. While a Mariposa user might be able to poke a hole into the armour of a Polesword user due to be unspeakably more capable than the slowness of his opponent, this dice system does not address direct counters that should normally be clear. For example, throwing holy water at a Vampire is not addressed, though that system could easily be the thrower rolling 1-20 and the subjected Vampire needing to roll 1-20 + acrobatics/shielding. One of the bonuses, however, is that it gives an inherent boost to individuals using large shields. This is because having a wall the size of a person in your left hand makes it easier to tuck yourself behind when an arrow is fired at you or when someone tries to chop at you, definitively putting the difference between carrying a buckler shield and a tower shield.

But most importantly, what do you think about this system?
Tagging people who helped me come up with said systems: @Bagley_ @JarrettdaCarrot @Razrei @Oursaxmax @someoneIsurelyforgot
 
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  • Your system does not factor in distance between two opposing characters. Distance is important for both pike-sword opposition and melee-ranged opposition.
  • Your system does not have a set factor for magic. How is magic handled in it?
  • Your system also has no framework for damage. How does a severed limb affect proficiencies? When should a character fall over in pain?
Do not take this critique as discouragement, merely my own opinion on combat systems. We spoke lengthy with @Razrei, @Oursaxmax and many others about combat systems, and I also saw the development of various MCRP server combat systems. There was one system that performed way above expectations: no rolls, but a third party moderator with staff authority.

Furthermore, there is a different though still related issue. Compare these two cases:
  • A roleplayer providing mediocre combat RP, though with a character that has high proficiency points for combat.
  • A roleplayer providing mediocre diplomatic / discussion RP, though with a character that has high proficiency points for diplomacy.
Both characters could befall situations where they could logically appeal to a higher authority: "I am supposed to roleplay an X character, though I do not possess the capabilities to RP them as such because of A, B and C." I do not think anybody would agree to enforce a situation where the resolution of a noble meeting or a Synod hearing is based off from proficiency points.

What different is a combat encounter? Ditching rolls for a neutral moderator allows characters to be controlled based on proficiencies, and not the roleplay controlled based on them.

Hence why I, from the point proficiencies were introduced, largely refused to roll based on them or involve them directly in RP.

Yet more alternatively, you can opt to use Hillfolk's Drama System and it's three-rule: for every emote, decide whether it's perfect, mediocre or weak. The next emote, you can only choose from the remaining two. The last emote will be what remains. Break down your emotes to series of three and it should be both balanced and somewhat tactical-ish.
 
Am I the only one that really just rolls for dodges? Most CRPS I have met don't really care for rolling every strike, seeing as you should be using common sense for it.

If a blade goes towards your ribs and you have little time to deflet, you can always aim to step backwards and compromise where it lands.

Perhaps that's just because I don't want to deal with OOC arguments but- I will be using these roll systems shortly!
 
I'm going to provide the system I've used for the last two tournament events, which is the same as the Dragon Knight Order rolls, minus any victory buffs and such
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...c4LhByf6JS5i9UF_qisi8yFrQw/edit#gid=214764429

To keep it short:
  • Gender gives a +1 for male, +0 for female
  • Take your height in cm, minus 150, and divide by 9. Round down and that's your next value
  • body build gives certain buffs, with many going to 0. Ripped gives +1, muscular +2, and strongman +3.
  • Age is more of an eyeball, but it caps at +3 around your early 30s and then decreases once more.
  • All weapon proficiency are generalized and offer +1 for every 10 points invested. this also adds acrobatics into the deal.
  • add all these values together plus 20. round down if decimals
  • your dice roll is then /roll [value-20] [value]
I found this system very well done, and it is extremely useful when fighting against people in the same sort of combat school. In this case, everyone was a Viridian or Bloodcast Knight.

However, there were a few issues with this:
  • The final total doesn't show which weapons are being used, leaving someone who has a maxed out stat gaining a boost even if they aren't using said weapon.
    • example, +40 elven lance in a melee situation. lances are only good in jousts, therefore the +4 boost in this system is unfairly buffing a combatant.
  • Age vs knowledge allows for old men to beat younger fighters purely from knowledge alone.
    • I tried to moderate this, but even by adding negative proficiency points due to age, old men could still beat opponents with a large advantage. The only advice for this is that old man players should factor in old age when they fight, if at all.
The best solution for this type of setup is to break up different proficiencies and cater them towards different circumstances.


One final note: A large criticism I have with CRP in general is that they can take too damn long without any real meaning behind them. As a spectator, I eventually just close the window and do other stuff, knowing that the fight will still be going on when I return.

A solution to this that I adopted is a best 2 out of 3. In this scenario, fighters roll three times during the match. whoever wins best 2 of 3 wins the entire duel, and the match concludes. This allows for tournaments to last only an hour as opposed to three, keeping the spectators entertained while the two players get their dueling in.

A modification of this rule s the best 3 of 5, which is reserved for the final duels of tournaments. This allows the remaining fighters to have a bit more time to show off emotes and actions, before the battle ends.

After two events of this system, I found it to be very useful in keeping boredom low and quality fighting high. While this may not work well on the streets, I feel there were merits in these dice systems.



One more thing
Always remember that proficiency just means formal knowledge of using a weapon. Not having points in a proficiency doesn't mean that you are completely inept at something. But it does mean that you are "winging it." Never try to act like an expert if you don't know your stuff. This goes double for intellectual proficiencies that can be subtly god-rp'd for the sake of convenience.
 
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Miss_Lazarescu said:
  • Your system does not factor in distance between two opposing characters. Distance is important for both pike-sword opposition and melee-ranged opposition.
  • Your system does not have a set factor for magic. How is magic handled in it?
  • Your system also has no framework for damage. How does a severed limb affect proficiencies? When should a character fall over in pain?
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None of the above systems at all factor damage or distance unless a player willingly takes the debuff, actually. As for magic, magic is a limited set of "x does y," so factoring in a non-point system versus points makes everything terribly more complicated than I've already made it. I personally try to do honour system as much as I can, but there are some times where people outright refuse to fight me without rolls (and these are the people usually with +30's), going so far as to calling a voiding because I didn't agree to using a system like Bellator, which subjects my warrior Tenpenny to a state of permanent defeat due to my highest stat combination of skills being 1-40. It's a "weak" school, but it shouldn't be so weak that it never works, much less, punishes a 25 year old Ailor with much higher strength in favour of a 150 year old elf with +110 Points total.
Miss_Lazarescu said:
A roleplayer providing mediocre combat RP, though with a character that has high proficiency points for combat.
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These characters always exist and there's no way to stop the masses from creating what they think is a character, but is actually points with skin. Once more, I personally prefer the honour system (which should really be the only system used for knowledge checks), but there are times where people still live by the dice. What I'm personally trying to entertain is the fairest system I possibly can introduce to the public so that people are on the same page, even if they're not reading the same sentence, though it's much more difficult to create a fair system than one might expect.
FireFan96 said:
Dragon Knight Order rolls
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I quite like this system, but most "old" characters are just 40 year old knights or elves. As such, they're still technically capable, and battles going by really quickly do get a bit frustrating if a final duel is only 4-5 emotes.
 
The greatest dice system is to decide who pays for drinks at the tavern after you have a fun, narrative combat experience :D
 
Wumpatron said:
The greatest dice system is to decide who pays for drinks at the tavern after you have a fun, narrative combat experience :D
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Combat can create so much story so quickly if the right moves are done, like a Bloodcast challenging a Viridian to a duel, deciding to sacrifice his strength for what he feels right, or a Drowdar coming back for revenge against a vampire. The system I produced is primarily for duels in a controlled arena, mostly because honour system is long-term (even though the battles can become the most epic yet) and not every battle is as important as it could be. Honestly, some of my favourite narratives were driven by a fantastic combat at some point or another!
 
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