Community? Or Cliques?

[AetherShadow]

An issue that has been bugging me for a fair amount of time has been the community.

And while I mean this in no negative demeanour and this community has been excellent in positivity and member support, in the past, there have been some things I've been noticing, specifically today at that, and while this is not passively directed at any group, I just felt as if I could touch upon and make the issue more aware to those who haven't noticed it such on the volume degree as I have, and prepare for a rant/lecture, because that's all I can format my thoughts into at the given moment. I hope I don't come off as toxic or rude in any way, and I mean this in the best positive way so we can start acting more whole as a group of roleplayers, pvpers, questers, etc.

I'd like to make it fairly clear that I have experienced both the faction and roleplay world, whereas the PvP world, I have not traversed myself into yet, although I honestly think at this point in blissful ignorance that the PvP community as it stands could be a less toxic one then what is the Roleplay community. And here is my final disclaimer: I am a idiot, I get it, so don't bother telling me in the comments if you share that opinion.

Whatever community we had, is falling apart.

Okay? Look, as it stands I'm not too impressed with some of the attitudes of the roleplay community lately and while I mean this to no one who reads the thread in order to preserve the peace which I need to take multiple steps to barricade myself already from a flame-storm as it currently stands!! - So when, when will we learn to be a proper community? Yes there aren't many cliques, and it is a majority of good players still, but the minority of those who do engage in cliques and negative toxicity in the OOC chat are still present! And it just reminds us of how scum humanity can be.

But there aren't many and it's not a big deal!

Hold it! I know that and I'm only writing this thread on the most recent incident I've unfortunately bared witness to! That being where a new player was told to 'Leave' an RP. Let me put it through your minds that new RPers are likely incredibly anxious and scared to join an rp, Okay? So does it help? No. But since cliques will always exist, do not take your private RPs into a public space, understood? And especially if some of the most important groups of individuals are involved in the cliques, they give off an instant negative OOC impression to the new players!

There is already enough confusion as it is with the OOC / IC channels of reality within the game. Do not make it more so complicated for new players please. Stop making fights in OOC because something in IC happened. I'll be one of the first to say it, but get over it. A character gets injured and you do not agree for lack of better situation? Deal with it, you don't know; you could always develop your character greatly!! And it's not you in real life, and you don't need to give maim/ kill perms so you always will heal. Heaven forbid the amount of OOC fights I see whenever a clique is involved.

Stop being so sensitive, It's just a game!

Listen! Listen, I've said it before and I will speak my piece again. You can't please everyone, there are going to be people like myself who get offended easily and quickly. So why don't we try and be nice? I can tolerate fair amounts of toxicity, but when it's expanded by a group, I get really upset and feel like leaving the server on some occasions due to the guilt from the default responsibility I feel for the new players since I've been here for just over 2 years now!

Are cliques bad?

Yes and no I suppose. Well, my main problem with cliques is that it seems the community is being divided. I'll compare this to segregation America faced when they divided the blacks and whites from each other. And my deepest apologies if any of you get offended. We used to have a community, we were all family technically, until the cliques started reproducing into the Public RP scenes, kicking people out of roleplays because they 'interfered'. There is no set plot line in an RP, so if you're claiming they interfered? Well that's great, truly, but they probably didn't, because in Aloria almost anything is possible.

In full conclusion. Cliques make us seem divided, and I personally don't like that, and some people agree with me on that. I honestly wish we could go back to the days when we were all 'a family' whereas groups of individuals who stick to their clique exclusively. It makes me really upset, hence me being oversensitive to this stuff, to see people being divided from each other. It's like we haven't learned anything, if we all, try to make an effort to be nice to one another, perhaps this issue wouldn't happen so much in cliques. So are new RPers getting neglected right now? Yes. I at least think so for those who unfortunately run into cliques.

So in final final-- conclusion, Yes I know, the paragraph above, Try to be nice to each other and if you are running a private RP with your clique, do keep it away from Roleplay hotspots, Thanks!!


EDIT 03.13.16 : I've been roasted ok stop guys it not nice. And yeah I was being dramatic half of this I don't mean anymore. It was influenced by my emotional hate towards a recent incident in game. And it hasn't involved anyone on the thread.

 

[Boneead6]

I haven't said much in the many discussions about the RP community being toxic but I think I will say a little now. I for one really have seen very little of people being toxic in RP. I believe everyone about what they say when they are talking about toxic people in the community. But from what I've seen. Everyone seems to be quite nice. I am not in any kind of small group of roleplayers so I tend to just Rp with whoever is nearest and I can say hardly anyone has been rude or mean to me and I am not a big person in massivecraft. I'm not that well known or at least I don't think I am. I sometimes have a great RP sessions with new players. It's sometimes quite relaxing as it's not as serious but about all this negativity about the RP community. I guess that yes some people are horrid in it and people could be nicer but everyone I see seems to be incredibly friendly and never has anything bad to say. But maybe I have just had a lucky experience.
Well that's my little input, ta for reading

Bone

 

[Medvekoma]

One question I'd have in regards to this thread before I make any reaction. Do you in any way refer to the RP interaction between Aeson, Liselette, Irka and Marion in the tavern earlier today?

 

[AetherShadow]

One question I'd have in regards to this thread before I make any reaction. Do you in any way refer to the RP interaction between Aeson, Liselette, Irka and Marion in the tavern earlier today?

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No & this thread has nothing to do with that.

 

[Zacatero]

@MonMarty please post that picture you have about cliques

 

[BittaBoBittoBa]

I don't know the details, but I do know asking someone to leave an RP isn't inherently bad in itself if you have
a good reason...Friendliness aside I know a lot of people that have a bad habit of injecting their chars into random situations....

Just a reoccuring thing I seen for instance, is literally any guard arrest. It doesn't matter if the person was jaywalker or a branded void worshipper, you'd always have random schmoes try to impede arresting like it was apart of their business...or if you have any
fight in a tavern, you'll always have a couple random schmoes try to join in the fight....

Now, it may very well be logical for their char to do so....its only bad because the way its used tends to be roundabout and disrupts the flow of
roleplay...in short, while one shouldn't block of their roleplay like East Germany; one should also be dutiful in making sure they way they integrate is smooth and doesn't gunk roleplay (It gets damn hard to keep track of everyplayer, thus why I try to limit myself to 2-4 at the most).

.....................now for cliques directly. Cliques as in the people that want literally no one but their pre-ordained friendos interacting with their characters or plot....as any D&D GM will tell you, as much as the element of freewill will go against your plan and urge you to beat your head in frustration...you gotta be able to adapt and roll with change. If you can't, you just need to grow up. Sometimes you have to accept an orc smashing a bottle against your head instead of trading vernacular with your posh regality.

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Just an offtopic Note: one should always refrain playing Bitchity character When I say Bitchity, I mean as in their actions or persona exist more to inhibit plot progression than facilitate it, (or rather the character has very little mileage). While its always suggestive, a some good clean examples I can think off that doesn't rely on context is a character that just won't give an inch. For instance, a character that you can't roleplay with anywhere except exactly one or two locations because they never ever leave the sewer for arbitrary reasons (Maybe they love moldy water and stagnant bread?); Or a character that just flats out refuses to interact, like one that just tells everyone to piss off or go away (Regardless of the situation). Or a character that just relentlessly repeats their actions (If you knock them down, they'll always get back up to attack again; if you confront them, they'll always make you chase after them untill you give up and let them escape).
These sorts of characters usually aren't this way out of malice, they're often just an oversight in their roleplay mechanics. To avoid them, just take some rain checks or Roleplay what'll be interesting rather than what'll strictly match your personality. Ensure your chars aren't 1 trick ponies.

 

[Zacatero]

If you really think about it… If everybody is in a clique.. Then aren't we just a big happy community of cliques?

 

[Suzzie]

@MonMarty please post that picture you have about cliques

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I got it.

I personally want to say that people stick to groups most like them. Hence, Cliques. Even without realizing, it's simply human nature.
I myself stay to my small group because I feel most comfortable. Fun fact- If I don't know you too well, I actually get nervous around you because then I don't know what jokes I can make without unintentionally offending or confusing you.

but.
Cliques =/= Toxicity.
I don't think it's the concept of cliques that bring toxicity, rather attitudes that people have. Rather change how we hang around people, it's likely attitudes that need to change.

That all likely didn't make sense but it's 1 am.

 

[Zacatero]

The media has added a negative connotation to the word "clique"

This isn't the movie "Mean Girls"

Spoiler: Mean Girls clique clip

As @Suzzie said, people tend to hang with people who are like them, or have similar interests. As long as people aren't exclusive about it, or at least are nice about it, I honestly don't see this as a problem.

 

[MonMarty]

Don't be overly dramatic. The community isn't falling apart because just because a handful of situations run out into sour behavior. The problem is never cliques shutting out new players. The problem is one clique shutting out another clique for OOC reasons, or being shady over OOC chat when two cliques are forced to interact.

I've been arguably part of a clique that has had ill standing with another clique for years. They all throw insults at each other on a personal and OOC level, but when the community as a whole is under attack from an outside source, they all stand to defend it equally.

Instead of telling people they are bitches or assholes, I force them into roleplay situations where they have to cooperate and hopefully find common ground in having fun. If they don't? that's too bad, but it hardly means the community is "falling apart". That's so dramatic.

 

[Kyberulf]

You talk about how cliques are bad when just today you yourself were part of a group of hired assassins sent to kill Hiesir and the rest of her gang.

As for your first point about someone being blatantly told that they weren't welcome in RP, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you're talking about the trade negotiations that happened between the Crimson Inquisition and the recently formed Shendar gang.

I myself am guilty of telling people they weren't welcome there after the situation had been explained in a much calmer manner, and while I was getting pissed at the possibility of someones well made and influential character (something a person had taken time and effort creating) possibly dying due to the events that transpired, the only time I even said the words "You're not welcome here." was when I was speaking to one of my peers. I apologize if that was taken in any other way. It is also of note that I was not the only one doing so.

As for your statements about people needing to not take things so seriously,

You became indignant in OOC chat just earlier today after I had calmly tried to explain why Fyren attacked your character.
Reason being your leader looked right at you, said your name, and told you to attack "the Shendar on the bridge."
In this case the only one there would have been Fyren.
It is not my fault, nor the fault of any others put in similar scenarios, that you were too slow or too oblivious to react first.
It is also not a valid reason for you, or anyone else in your group, to demand kill and maim perms because we preemptively attacked to defend ourselves.

Nothing is falling apart; Cliques are peoples natural ways of falling in with people of similar interests.

Honestly speaking, you're being incredibly dramatic throughout the entire post, and highly hypocritical as well.

 

[Zacatero]

Let's be real. We can never get rid of cliques. In fact if you think about it… Isn't a faction just a clique? And even in roleplay you can even apply to get a staff approved clique here. https://forums.massivecraft.com/threads/application-for-charters-chapter-houses.28975/
So I mean it's really cliques that run the server to be honest.

 

[AetherShadow]

That's so dramatic.

Click to shrink...

ok

 

[Mecharic]

Nothing wrong with people forming smaller groups within an overall group. It's only natural, people prefer to be around others like them rather than dealing with people they can't relate to. The only issue is when different groups start hating on each other, but that's also inevitable (us and them mentality) and can't really be prevented. Rules can be made to limit it, but you can't force people to like each other.

 

[AetherShadow]

@marsssoli

 

[Medvekoma]

Time to write the /GREAT POST/.

I hope I don't come off as toxic or rude in any way, and I mean this in the best positive way so we can start acting more whole as a group of roleplayers, pvpers, questers, etc.

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I rather hope anything I'll write will comply with the rules of rhetorics and will be free of any ad hominem attacks. If there are some, it's my ignorance and not my intentions.

'd like to make it fairly clear that I have experienced both the faction and roleplay world, whereas the PvP world, I have not traversed myself into yet, although I honestly think at this point in blissful ignorance that the PvP community as it stands could be a less toxic one then what is the Roleplay community. And here is my final disclaimer: I am a idiot, I get it, so don't bother telling me in the comments if you share that opinion.

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My other pretense, in 99% I'm immersed with the roleplay world, withing the roleplay world I mostly deal with aristocracy, nobility and crime RP to a degree (perhaps those that are most infamous for cliques).

Yes there aren't many cliques, and it is a majority of good players still, but the minority of those who do engage in cliques and negative toxicity in the OOC chat are still present! And it just reminds us of how scum humanity can be.

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Salt will always be there. Wisdom is to ignore it or laugh at it.

That being where a new player was told to 'Leave' an RP. Let me put it through your minds that new RPers are likely incredibly anxious and scared to join an rp, Okay? So does it help? No.

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What to do, then? Switch positions from being an observer to be on the roleplayers' side. From their point of view, it's more than likely that the new player's arrival is roleplay disruption. While it could be argued that new players should be drawn into roleplay, it's really hard to do so when the first impression is disruption. I have personal experience with deliberately approaching and involving 'new' people, and they were all fine and lovely when it came to the average 'x approach y' roleplay. Problem usually arises when there's a group of roleplayers in a situation, be it a clique or just random people, and disruption occurs from a newbie's side. There isn't much to do there. If you ignore the disruption, you'll be called out for ignoring a new player. If you mark the disruption, you break your roleplay for OOC chatter. If you involve the new character, you may sacrifice the consistency of your own roleplay.

But since cliques will always exist, do not take your private RPs into a public space, understood?

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Hold the horse there. Roleplay clique doesn't equal to private roleplay, and private roleplay doesn't equal to clique roleplay. Yes, there are lots of cliques that present themselves in the public, but they usually react to interaction with outsiders, if it's not roleplay disruption.

And especially if some of the most important groups of individuals are involved in the cliques, they give off an instant negative OOC impression to the new players!

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I don't like this 'important groups of individuals' mark, because it implies an inherent difference between players. Yes, there is a difference between staff, between commoner and nobility, there are different expectations. But there's also a different level of understanding.

One main problem I've been witnessing is people understanding IC denial as OOC saltiness. A group of nobles insulting a character is not a group of noble roleplayers insulting another player. It's already breaking-character that there's so many nobles roaming the streets or sitting in the tavern, instead of enjoying the bounties of their own lands away from Regalia. Same goes for staff, a character's action should never be equated to a player's attitude.

Stop making fights in OOC because something in IC happened.

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We can't remove combat RP from massive.

And it's not you in real life, and you don't need to give maim/ kill perms so you always will heal.

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It's not about maim or kill, it's about the psychological feeling of defeat derived from having a self-insert character.

Heaven forbid the amount of OOC fights I see whenever a clique is involved.

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I see no relation between cliques and OOC fights, apart from the fact that OOC fights often invite clique members to aid their peers. There's the same shitstorm after a worse-off combat RP situation between two single individuals, trust me. Kind-of experienced it.

Listen! Listen, I've said it before and I will speak my piece again. You can't please everyone, there are going to be people like myself who get offended easily and quickly. So why don't we try and be nice? I can tolerate fair amounts of toxicity, but when it's expanded by a group, I get really upset and feel like leaving the server on some occasions due to the guilt from the default responsibility I feel for the new players since I've been here for just over 2 years now!

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The psychological point of being toxic is to derive reactions from your audience and therefore glorify yourself. If there's no audience or if there's no reaction, toxicity ceases to exist. If there's no reaction, the audience will disperse. This was the original answer I sought to write, but I decided to shelve my thoughts and test it out in an in-game situation with the help of some well-mannered manipulation. And alas, it worked out. If someone's being toxic, don't react. Be Gandhi and fire the nu- take the beating with a neutral face.

Well, my main problem with cliques is that it seems the community is being divided. I'll compare this to segregation America faced when they divided the blacks and whites from each other.

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Bad comparison, because it implies an inherent belonging to one clique or the other, with no chance to transcend boundaries. To me, it seems like a reductio ad absurdum with the sole purpose of applying to the emotions behind the word 'segregation'.

I would compare it to high school, as I always do. There are cliques, there will be cliques. Some are open, some a toxic, others aren't even apparent at the first glance.

We used to have a community, we were all family technically, until the cliques started reproducing into the Public RP scenes, kicking people out of roleplays because they 'interfered'.

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Isn't roleplay disruption against the server rules though? Isn't massive's core roleplay ideal the thought of being able to choose when, where and whom to roleplay with? A baseline principle that roleplay cannot be forced on people?

I don't know the details, but I do know asking someone to leave an RP isn't inherently bad in itself if you have
a good reason...Friendliness aside I know a lot of people that have a bad habit of injecting their chars into random situations....

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When the cause and effect make little sense, look for intentions. What are you intending to do for entering a roleplay scene that you are kicked out from? What do you win, if there is a rule enforced, or if there's a conscious thriving for you to be involved? The clique will remain, the only thing that'll stay is a bunch of salty clique members forced to roleplay with you. What's good in that? Why don't you just find another clique or roleplay scene to join, if it's evident that you aren't welcomed in one? I have pointed out in another thread about cliques that there's quite a few that are /open/ and proven to accept people regardless of roleplay skill or time invested.

There is no set plot line in an RP, so if you're claiming they interfered? Well that's great, truly, but they probably didn't, because in Aloria almost anything is possible.

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Anything is possible, yes. But refer to forced roleplay. Take my case for example, and the trial of Charlotte Moselberg. There were at least thirty people listening in, some roleplaying as guards. We had a guy who started shooting arrows at Charlotte from the top of a banner, with the emote 'assassinates Charlotte'.

Does it make sense? Yes. She has enemies, both overgrounds and undergrounds. He could have climbed up, shot a crossbow at her and ended her miserable life. Does that make better roleplay? I'm pretty sure a lot of those characters present would have rejoiced, some players event, taken poor Cahrlotte's stance as an 'antagonist'. But it's still forced roleplay upon a character, and the assassin's apparent escape spammed the chat with unnecessary combat roleplay. Would it made sense as a plotline for her to die? Yes. Did I claim he interfered? Yes. Because it was de-facto roleplay disruption that would have possibly hampered the development of a lot of characters.

Cliques make us seem divided, and I personally don't like that, and some people agree with me on that. I honestly wish we could go back to the days when we were all 'a family' whereas groups of individuals who stick to their clique exclusively.

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I don't like the 'old days' argument, here's an article on that: http://www.wbs.ac.uk/news/why-we-think-life-was-better-in-the-good-old-days/

So in final final-- conclusion, Yes I know, the paragraph above, Try to be nice to each other and if you are running a private RP with your clique, do keep it away from Roleplay hotspots, Thanks!!

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Be nicer to each other ... hmmm. Interesting you say that, because it implies people being rude. They are, in fact. But you also have the choice of turning a back on them and becoming the better person by moving on. You can identify cliques, you discover cliques that refuse you, why can't you refuse cliques yourself? And as always, there isn't much you can say about roleplay hotspots and 'private roleplays'. A lot of new interactions resulted from myself conducting most of my roleplays, even business, shady or political matters in the tavern.

Whatever community we had, is falling apart.

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I don't perceive such, and it seems like prophesying something based on a recent bad experience. Like how the end of the world is prophesied after any natural catastrophe or economic setback.

Stop being so sensitive, It's just a game!

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As highlighted in another thread, it's more than a game for a lot of people.

Onwards to others!

Just a reoccuring thing I seen for instance, is literally any guard arrest. It doesn't matter if the person was jaywalker or a branded void worshipper, you'd always have random schmoes try to impede arresting like it was apart of their business...or if you have any
fight in a tavern, you'll always have a couple random schmoes try to join in the fight....

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I agree with this. There's a point where realistic involvement becomes something that only draws out roleplay and impedes things from unfolding.

one shouldn't block of their roleplay like East Germany

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TRIGGERED.

Cliques as in the people that want literally no one but their pre-ordained friendos interacting with their characters or plot.

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I have only ever encounter one or two cliques like that, and even those weren't that strict. As a general rule of thumb, people care for little more than their own characters. As a secondary rule of thumbs, cliques that are reinforced by OOC friendship will cater for the needs of their character, but not others. Catering, that is. Yet they inevitably provide roleplay for others as well. Unless they completely close up themselves and ignore anything apart from their own roleplay, they are kind-of forced into interaction.

And once again, if you see a terrible clique like that, avoid roleplaying with them. That's it.

IMPORTANT PART

For instance, a character that you can't roleplay with anywhere except exactly one or two locations because they never ever leave the sewer for arbitrary reasons (Maybe they love moldy water and stagnant bread?)

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I took the rule-of-thumb that I never roleplay a character that can't walk into the tavern and have random pleasantries roleplay.

This however transcends locations to situations as well as moral sides. You bar your chances of progression if you roleplay a character that is morally bound, that is bound by ideologies or bound by tenets.

Or a character that just flats out refuses to interact, like one that just tells everyone to piss off or go away (Regardless of the situation).

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Another simple rule, all characters should have at least one vector that forces instigation, and you should always avoid traits that inherently inhibit interaction, like 'shy', 'rude' or such.

Or a character that just relentlessly repeats their actions (If you knock them down, they'll always get back up to attack again; if you confront them, they'll always make you chase after them untill you give up and let them escape).

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Or any character that doesn't develop. Most of the characters that suffer from this are the self-insert characters. If you base your character too much on yourself, it'll mean you'll have the inherent want for the character to stagnate and not change (as to not differentiate itself from you). Even if you look at long-term development of completely self-insert characters, you could notice some change, but this chance will mostly equal to the personality change experienced by their players.

These sorts of characters usually aren't this way out of malice, they're often just an oversight in their roleplay mechanics. To avoid them, just take some rain checks or Roleplay what'll be interesting rather than what'll strictly match your personality. Ensure your chars aren't 1 trick ponies.

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Agreed.

AND THE IMPORTANTESTEST PART

The only reason I replied to the above kind-of off topic remarks is because you can consider cliques as characters of their own, since roleplay cliques usually suffer from the same issues mary sue players do. This is often ignored since character creation and the rules that govern roleplay characters are mostly applied to individuals and not groups or cliques. But if you are part of a clique or hell what, if you happen to be a de-facto clique leader, take this into consideration.

A clique that only fits one location, or one 'dimension' of roleplay. Look at the roleplay cliques you know. Aren't they very specific in what type of roleplay they do, regardless of character? Most prominent are the noble or crime cliques.

A clique that refuses to interact. Is the clique too closed off from the outside world? Ask yourselves, what chances are there that a new player joins your clique? What benefits could you gain from a new player?

A clique often only fits one category of roleplay activity. Upgrading and diverting somewhat from Marty's original thread, I consider players based on the scale of (Observer - Interjecter - Commenter - Talker - Refresher - Proactive - Instigator - Director). In the greater sense and in contribution for the community, a clique often fits only one of these categories. 80% the cliques are between commenter and refresher.

What's the problem with this? Nothing, really. Can't force anyone to alter their playstyle or their cliques, no. Problem only comes when cliques bitch at each other, same in the case of players. The very usual situation is a confrontation between the two ends of the spectrum, say an instigator clique and a commenter clique. What can you do? You could stick to your own clique type, or you could team up with another clique and profit from them. While there's mostly confrontation between the right end and the left end, the left end could benefit a lot from allowing some freedom to the right and, and the right end can benefit a lot from having a decent reaction from the left.

Just ... avoid mary sues. Avoid them when it comes to a character, a clique, an organisation or a family. Inserting yourself may provide self-fulfillment, escapism or desired glorification, but in the greater sense it'll hamper character development and will reduce your interactivity with the larger community as a whole, if not antagonise yourself within it.

Rant rant rant, important part ended.

I don't think it's the concept of cliques that bring toxicity, rather attitudes that people have. Rather change how we hang around people, it's likely attitudes that need to change.

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Some cliques are toxic. If there are enough individuals within a clique that cause toxicity, they'll peer pressure the rest into being such. You can't help it but to avoid such cliques.

Let's be real. We can never get rid of cliques.

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I can bring the maths for that, somewhat improving upon what I wrote in another chat.

Goal of roleplay = maximise fun

F = f1 + f2 + f3 + ... + fn, where F is overall fun gained and fx are individual fun gained for each player taking part

fx = A*fm, where fx is individual fun gained, 'A' is attention received and 'fm' is mean fun from the scene.

Substituting an equation to rid the (...):

F = n*Am*fm, where 'Am' is mean attention received and n is the amount of players involved

Since attention is distributed by the players taking part in the scene, let's subtract it from the aggregate fun gained.

F = n*Am*fm - n*Am

Let's find out whether it's worthy to invite a new player into our lovely clique here, by writing on one side equation with n and a k factor, and on the other side with (n+1), but keeping the attention pool the same.

k*n*Am*fm = (n+1)*fm*Am - (Am*(n^2))/(n+1)

We're going to take mean attention distributed as our numéraire (unit) and re-arrange the equation.

k = (n + 2 + 2/n + 1 / fm) / (n + 1)

Since fm is unit dependent and 1/fm converges towards zero, we can ignore it. In the end, we are left with the equation y = (x+2+2/x)/(x+1).

Google's visual help.
Do look at it, it's wonderful. That -1 < x < 0 bump is so damn cheeky.

This function gives you the increase you have to have in the enjoyment of your roleplay that could substitute skipping a single player.

You'll see that the function loses serious y value at 1 < x < 6 but then becomes almost constant.

What does this mean in layman terms?

That mathematically proven, a roleplay scene benefits the most from around 6 players involved. Above that, the aggregate fun derived will diminish due to the mean fun lost through speed of the scene lost, or through the chaos that's brought by more players. Due to this very specific equation, players /WILL/ by subconscious logic divide themselves into cliques of 4 to 10. Yes, most noble houses have 4 to 10 members. Most crime organisations have 4 to 10 members. Most charters have 4 to 10 members.

To combat this ... you can't combat this. This is human logic and behaviour. And our goal is to gain fun from roleplay, and involving more players forcefully would reduce the aggregate fun gained. You ... shouldn't really do anything against this, apart from finding a clique you enjoy.

Alright uhm ... so now for the more clique-ish terms.

Definition of a clique withing a scene.

F = n*Am*fm - n*Am

This equation defines the fun gained from any roleplay scene.

Clique A is defined as:
Taken that A is the numéraire, a roleplay scene is infested with a clique if the variance between the individual attention factors is greater than half.

There! It wasn't hard to /actually/ define a clique. Hahaha. But whatever would I provide a definition for, if not to learn from it? Because mathematics, there's a purpose.

If you take my definition seriously, you'll understand the thing that you should be on the lookout for. If you are in a roleplay scene, try and examine which characters are receiving attention. If you think there's one involved that received less than half the attention than any other involved, it's probably a clique. This is all taken with the presumption that all characters are actively participating in the scene. Of course your character will receive less attention if they are just standing by, watching or interjection every now and then.

Huh-hoh. Embarked to the glorious lands of mathematics. Heh.

 

[Lithiel]

I feel bad sometimes turning away a new player who honestly just wnats to be involved in an intense rp. But sometimes I feel I have no choice when you have a serious scene, in which you have multiple people and you need to drop everything- almost out of character wise, to make accomodations for the new perosn who decided to jump into your house during a dramatic scene.

I find myself relating because I've been in that position a lot. So I'm always nervous when asking or getting my character close to intense rp's because I'm worried my sudden "entrance" is derailing something. I always consider if my presence is 'contributing' or distracting.

 

[AetherShadow]

 

[HereticTakao]

I can bring the maths for that, somewhat improving upon what I wrote in another chat.

Goal of roleplay = maximise fun

F = f1 + f2 + f3 + ... + fn, where F is overall fun gained and fx are individual fun gained for each player taking part

fx = A*fm, where fx is individual fun gained, 'A' is attention received and 'fm' is mean fun from the scene.

Substituting an equation to rid the (...):

F = n*Am*fm, where 'Am' is mean attention received and n is the amount of players involved

Since attention is distributed by the players taking part in the scene, let's subtract it from the aggregate fun gained.

F = n*Am*fm - n*Am

Let's find out whether it's worthy to invite a new player into our lovely clique here, by writing on one side equation with n and a k factor, and on the other side with (n+1), but keeping the attention pool the same.

k*n*Am*fm = (n+1)*fm*Am - (Am*(n^2))/(n+1)

We're going to take mean attention distributed as our numéraire (unit) and re-arrange the equation.

k = (n + 2 + 2/n + 1 / fm) / (n + 1)

Since fm is unit dependent and 1/fm converges towards zero, we can ignore it. In the end, we are left with the equation y = (x+2+2/x)/(x+1).

Google's visual help.
Do look at it, it's wonderful. That -1 < x < 0 bump is so damn cheeky.

This function gives you the increase you have to have in the enjoyment of your roleplay that could substitute skipping a single player.

You'll see that the function loses serious y value at 1 < x < 6 but then becomes almost constant.

What does this mean in layman terms?

That mathematically proven, a roleplay scene benefits the most from around 6 players involved. Above that, the aggregate fun derived will diminish due to the mean fun lost through speed of the scene lost, or through the chaos that's brought by more players. Due to this very specific equation, players /WILL/ by subconscious logic divide themselves into cliques of 4 to 10. Yes, most noble houses have 4 to 10 members. Most crime organisations have 4 to 10 members. Most charters have 4 to 10 members.

To combat this ... you can't combat this. This is human logic and behaviour. And our goal is to gain fun from roleplay, and involving more players forcefully would reduce the aggregate fun gained. You ... shouldn't really do anything against this, apart from finding a clique you enjoy.

Alright uhm ... so now for the more clique-ish terms.

Definition of a clique withing a scene.

F = n*Am*fm - n*Am

This equation defines the fun gained from any roleplay scene.

Clique A is defined as:
Taken that A is the numéraire, a roleplay scene is infested with a clique if the variance between the individual attention factors is greater than half.

There! It wasn't hard to /actually/ define a clique. Hahaha. But whatever would I provide a definition for, if not to learn from it? Because mathematics, there's a purpose.

If you take my definition seriously, you'll understand the thing that you should be on the lookout for. If you are in a roleplay scene, try and examine which characters are receiving attention. If you think there's one involved that received less than half the attention than any other involved, it's probably a clique. This is all taken with the presumption that all characters are actively participating in the scene. Of course your character will receive less attention if they are just standing by, watching or interjection every now and then.

Huh-hoh. Embarked to the glorious lands of mathematics. Heh.

Click to shrink...

W-why are you bringing math into fun and cliques, fun isn't an equation.

 

[FireFan96]

Since fm is unit dependent and 1/fm converges towards zero, we can ignore it.

Click to shrink...

Spoiler: Math Stuff

was 1/fm synonomous to 1/x or something else? Because 1/x doesn't converge at x=0. The limit doesn't exist there (goes to -inf as x->0 form the left and to inf as x->0 from the right.

 

[Numbless]

y i k e s

 

[EdnaMode_]

I find myself relating because I've been in that position a lot. So I'm always nervous when asking or getting my character close to intense rp's because I'm worried my sudden "entrance" is derailing something. I always consider if my presence is 'contributing' or distracting.

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Omg. ...you explained my dilemma with words.. I feel you..

 

[AetherShadow]

y i k e s

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I don't really even care anymore lol i was being dramatic cuz I was pissed off at someone.

 

[AetherShadow]

It is also not a valid reason for you, or anyone else in your group, to demand kill and maim perms because we preemptively attacked to defend ourselves.

Click to shrink...

Defamation of character is a term that is used to describe when false statement is written or spoken about an individual with the intent of harming or slandering their reputation. Source: http://thelawdictionary.org/article/how-do-you-prove-a-defamation-of-character-claim/ Slander

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What you just did was slander. Absolute slander.
Simply cause I did not demand kill/ maim perms I simply gave you them in case you wanted to. Unless your getting mixed signals which I doubt since you /did/ acknowledge this in-game, you're simply slandering me and the chat logs back that. And simply because you're slandering me I kindly- no formally, ask you not to associate with me again further.

 

[Medvekoma]

Spoiler: Math Stuff

was 1/fm synonomous to 1/x or something else? Because 1/x doesn't converge at x=0. The limit doesn't exist there (goes to -inf as x->0 form the left and to inf as x->0 from the right.

Click to shrink...

Spoiler: Explanation

1/x

, from a calculus site.

Bear in mind that I'm an economist and I only deal with the first quadrant.

Either way through, the larger x gets the closer 1/x will be to zero. y will never get negative if x is increased.

The reason why 1/fm is ignored is because of this.

k = (n + 2 + 2/n + 1 / fm) / (n + 1)

Take it that the clique has five members, and the average fun 1 because you measure fun from 0 to 1.

k = (5 + 2 + 2/5 + 1/1) / (5 + 1)

k = 1.4

Let's take an average fun of 10 (because you measure fun from 0 to 20, technically the same data just in another unit system).

k = (5 + 2 + 2/5 + 1/10) / (5 + 1)

k = 1.25

Now let's take an average fun of 100 (same data again, another system).

k = (5 + 2 + 2/5 + 1/100) / (5 + 1)

k = 1.235

With an average fun of 1000 (same data set, another system of measurement)

k = (5 + 2 + 2/5 + 1/1000) / (5 + 1)

k = 1.2335

Technically, the larger numbers you use for your measurement of fun, the more irrelevant the + 1/fm in the equation will get, and the closer your number will be to the solution to the equation that omits 1/fm.

k = (5 + 2 + 2/5) / (5 + 1)

k = 1.2333...

W-why are you bringing math into fun and cliques, fun isn't an equation.

Click to shrink...

Because maths is the language of logic and it helps us understand the underlying issue behind cliques ... they are created, because they help to maximise fun. Truly.

 

[FireFan96]

Spoiler: Explanation

1/x

, from a calculus site.

Bear in mind that I'm an economist and I only deal with the first quadrant.

Either way through, the larger x gets the closer 1/x will be to zero. y will never get negative if x is increased.

The reason why 1/fm is ignored is because of this.

k = (n + 2 + 2/n + 1 / fm) / (n + 1)

Take it that the clique has five members, and the average fun 1 because you measure fun from 0 to 1.

k = (5 + 2 + 2/5 + 1/1) / (5 + 1)

k = 1.4

Let's take an average fun of 10 (because you measure fun from 0 to 20, technically the same data just in another unit system).

k = (5 + 2 + 2/5 + 1/10) / (5 + 1)

k = 1.25

Now let's take an average fun of 100 (same data again, another system).

k = (5 + 2 + 2/5 + 1/100) / (5 + 1)

k = 1.235

With an average fun of 1000 (same data set, another system of measurement)

k = (5 + 2 + 2/5 + 1/1000) / (5 + 1)

k = 1.2335

Technically, the larger numbers you use for your measurement of fun, the more irrelevant the + 1/fm in the equation will get, and the closer your number will be to the solution to the equation that omits 1/fm.

k = (5 + 2 + 2/5) / (5 + 1)

k = 1.2333...

Because maths is the language of logic and it helps us understand the underlying issue behind cliques ... they are created, because they help to maximise fun. Truly.

Click to shrink...

Gotcha. lim x->inf (1/x)

I was thinking when x->0. Definitely two different limits. So yep, it does converge at infinity. It must of been the ambiguity of which bound the function was going to.

 

[Kyberulf]

What you just did was slander. Absolute slander.
Simply cause I did not demand kill/ maim perms I simply gave you them in case you wanted to. Unless your getting mixed signals which I doubt since you /did/ acknowledge this in-game, you're simply slandering me and the chat logs back that. And simply because you're slandering me I kindly- no formally, ask you not to associate with me again further.

Click to shrink...

People within your group asked for kill and maim perms, and when this isn't necessarily a bad thing, in the context it seemed unnecessary. My words were not meant as slander.

I also think it's funny that you ask for no further association, which I am all for, then proceed to add me on Skype not once, but twice.

If you don't want your opinions and hypocrisy challenged don't passive aggresively post them to a public forum. That's just petty.

Ta now.

 

[AetherShadow]

People within your group asked for kill and maim perms, and when this isn't necessarily a bad thing, in the context it seemed unnecessary. My words were not meant as slander.

I also think it's funny that you ask for no further association, which I am all for, then proceed to add me on Skype not once, but twice.

If you don't want your opinions and hypocrisy challenged don't passive aggresively post them to a public forum. That's just petty.

Ta now.

Click to shrink...

AetherShadow lol bye get off my profile
Yesterday at 2:31 PM

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Kyberulf was last seen:
Viewing member profile AetherShadow, 13 minutes ago

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[diCardinale]

snip

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*commits sudoku because of a math equation for fun*

 

[AetherShadow]

If you don't want your opinions and hypocrisy challenged don't passive aggresively post them to a public forum. That's just petty.

Click to shrink...

The hypocrisy in that is that /you/ are the one passively attacking /me/ Ahahaha. It's a good thing you didn't add me because I'd be speaking far more honestly on Skype then I even could here.

 

[Kyberulf]

Figured your profile pic is the same one you used on Skype. You are truly the sneakiest person I have ever seen.

Glad you admitted to wanting to spread even more salt.

And is childish rambling now your only defense?

Im laughing so hard that your post about people not working together is bringing people from all facets of the server to call you out on your nonsense.

Now where did I put my popcorn?

 

[Greenie]

Oh my I feel so offended right now! Look!

Spoiler: Me & my brother <3

View attachment 77218

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The message from that picture isn't very funny. More offensive that you'd use it as a joke.

 

[AetherShadow]

The message from that picture isn't very funny. More offensive that you'd use it as a joke.

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Didn't see the writing my friend is just making these pictures and I'm laughing so much but I'll remove it.

 

[AetherShadow]

@Staff Lock please this thread is getting out of control.

 

[Kyberulf]

Kek, wonder who is to blame for that one.

 

[Gethelp]

Locked