Discussion in 'Factions' started by Gumee, Jul 19, 2018.
Regardless, my idea of removing f home access for enemied factions still works.
Wish you would have stayed on topic instead of taking the time to look for a video of us being raided two years ago but here we are :shrug:
I've explained like 5 times that it was directly relevant, but ok
Gonna stop replying to your deliberate attempts at "lets make the staff member mad guys xd" until you say something productive
Idk how I can say this to you any clearer but we don't care about you enough to annoy you. If you would read the thread and respond that be great. If you are done hearing yourself talk, that would be the best thing. Thanks.
it took you six hours to stop responding why stop now ):
He's making a point, I'm refuting it. It's on Gumee to convince me that this market system is better than a faction system, not the other way around.
Welp this was a "fun" thread. @Mazukii, from my read of this thread you're the one who's being the unpleasant one, not Winterless. Sorry, but that's my unbiased opinion (since I honestly have no idea who either of you are and have had no in-game interactions with ya'll to my knowledge).
really cool pfp where'd you get it
Hope you enjoyed your stay! Thanks for bringing up valid points (no sarcasm), I enjoyed debating this topic with you. :)
You don't care enough about me to annoy me, yet your entire fac spent an hour in general chat trying to get me to flame, which got 2 of you muted.
Nope, I'm done replying because this reeks of a feature that you want to add simply to exploit it, like you want to exploit new players and throw a tantrum if someone tried to set up a survival factions shop.
This has all been very enlightening, and it's going to be a blast taking your weapons with the Belegost squad after reset!
She's frustrated at your sheer denseness and blatant hypocrisy. She's resolved to nihilistic behaviorisms because you, as a staff member, have chosen to let your own personal bias influence your salty responses in the form of irrelevant "receipt pulling". She's going off at you, because this is a thread about how to maintain the economy, from an economist. Yet, you're going off using arguments riddled in logical fallacies and are too dense to recognize your own ignorance.
Keep in mind that Mazukii and Easels are going off solely for your comment:
They wouldn't be going off on you, if you hadn't gone off on Vanos for being "cowardly" and "deliberately obnoxious"--about three replies in from the original post.
As a side note, please keep in mind that our behavior in general chat is for entertainment purposes only. It's not flame, because no one is heated. It's heckling commentary directed at getting a laugh from either other players or ourselves. We choose to participate in antics out of comedy and not toxicity. Please do not allow your perception of our morals, ethics, or values to hinder your ability to evaluate arguments sensibly.
Never said I was leaving, just that the thread has gotten rather derailed - or at least, that was my intent. I don't think my first post here ever did get a reply tho, got anything to say in response to it?
So back on topic...
@Winterless I do think there's some merit to having a /tp market and doing it correctly.
@Mazukii @Gumee I've lost the thread basically as to who said what where but you guys need to come up with a solution that works. Winterless is right, its not the other way around, because right now there is not a /tp market going to happen... Please take criticism to the idea as just criticism and move on from it. So here is my question:
HOW do you suggest making it work? I see in your picture in the OP, there isnt a spawn point. Where in that colored diagram would the spawn be? Sure everybody would have the same size shop but the more you put, the further out you have to go to rent one and at some point it will stop being convenient to walk the distance and it will be back to the closest shops getting the customers. (I also just wanna mention you said the rings of the shops are in different worlds, its actually in the same world like this so theyre just spread out)
So based on that alone, your rough draft diagram wouldn't fix the issue. Remember, unless it fixes the issues with /tp market that faction shops is fixing, then its no good. Regardless of other things that it is accomplishing, the main goal for you is to come up with a way this works BETTER to make those in support of faction shops switch to your way of thinking.
In the description of the diagram, I note that the light pinkish squares in the intersection represent spawn points. Those spawn points are randomized so that whenever an individual types /tp market, it randomly places them at one of many intersections. Since the grid is replicable, so are the spawn points. Therefore as the market gets bigger to accomodate more needed stalls, more random spawn points are entered. The way people navigate to their desired location is by finding the color coded block (dynmap could assist here as well). This would eliminate the problematic “connivence” variable you bring up. That concept is in the original thread (I believe), but I’m glad you asked so I could rearticulate.
Interesting. So lets say I want to go to your shop. You just advertised a deal on super cheap dirt blocks or whatever and i wanna come buy. Your shop is in the green cluster of shops. So my options are to either /tp market 15128414 times until i get green or just walk to green from wherever i spawn in? Theres no way for me to easily get to your shop other than those two ways?
@easels - Just wanna apologize for my idiocy. I will forever blame google and urban dictionary for that one though, they told me pfp was an insult xD
Essentially yes, to eliminate an unfair convenience-based advantage, shops are going to have to face a bit of randomized inconvenience in this model. However, with access to dynmap and visual guides, it shouldn’t be terribly problematic. Also, the walking distance is part of the system, as it allows the buyer to walk past other shops in which they might find a cheaper or better deal. That walk is their visual guide to the economy of said item, letting them gauge its worth and decide if it is truly worth the walk to the originally desired shop or not.
Edit: Just an afterthought, if its really that inconvenient, perhaps invidiual stall tp could be provided if players know the stall number/id/name. That way players can find individual stalls advertised in trade chat, without having to navigate to “Gumee’s shop in the green block for the best deals on dirt!”. However, I still personally prefer the forced contemplative walk.
And what of my comments that it breaks immersion, renders faction shops pointless, limits inter-faction activity, and lacks the uniqueness or character of individual marketplaces?
All valid concerns. Personally, I’d choose to sacrifice some level of immersion for functionality, but there are several ways to maintain it. For example there could be a portal in a trade caravan located at the world spawn that warps to the shop.
Also, I find that staff made shops tend to be more immersive than giant underground boxes that look like PvP storehouses. Faction shops dont have to be pointless either. If you want a faction shop, you could rent a slot from the market and establish a portal, linking shops together. As long as the source (/tp market) serves as a central hub, players could then use their stalls however they see fit.
Once more, I’ve tossed around the idea that factions could rent out larger stalls instead of individual players, and members, officers, or leaders could buy and sell items at that stall. (If you really want the faction to be that introspective, lock out the stall space from visiters so the only way there is through a faction controlled portal). Regardless, if there are better deals elsewhere, members will still go there over their own faction market or just get the goods themselves. Inter-faction trade is flawed because it attempts to create an insular micro-economy within an already small economy that can easily be accessed by members in the micro-economy.
I’m not renouncing the need for immersive political and socioeconomic interaction, I’m just suggesting trade should take place in one neutrally assigned spot thats universal for every player and accessible to all. If you want this marketplace to be unique and have character, then ask the game staff designing it to make it visually interesting and within the blocky/grid streets, give various architectural flair to shops.
This is a good idea, though unfortunately not possible since AreaShop is not a massive developed plugin, therefore unless those developers add a factions functionality... its not possible
That would work, or maybe have a few small safezones around the map with a merchant ship that takes players to the marketplace. Something that forces players to travel to reach it rather than simply teleport in, since this would be a safezone.
I would never build a faction market that looks like a storehouse! Even if I build one underground I'd hope to make it look good lol
I mean trade between factions, but within their own marketplaces. Gives factions a reason to build them that isn't strictly roleplay.
I like the idea of a faux-grid road system - the roads follow a grid, but are squiggly within the overall grid pattern. Like what we did in old Raeth back in the day - roads follow a distinct Grid, but wave within the grid, with buildings have similar (but not identical) floor sizes.
Winterless is not in charge of idea acceptance and rejection. Winterless, in this case, is expressing his opinion as a player and a participant in the system, not as my mouth piece to pronounce my opinions.
I'll give a rough and hopefully short as possible assessment of why I think this will not work:
Primarily, a random tp function would have to be coded from scratch. We have no existing function like this in Massive, and I haven't been able to find any out of house plugin either. There are plugins that manage random coordinate tp's, but not actual tp's entrenched in locations and then picking a random sequence. This development time takes time away from other things we could be working on, like putting actual content back into survival.
There's also a serious flaw in the concept of random tp functions. Not every shop is going to sell everything. A PVP'er usually sells PVP gear while a roleplayer usually sells hardened stained clay. As a builder, I want to reach hardened stained clay, and I will remain loyal to that store as long as they stock, and as long as someone else doesn't offer me a lower price. Using a random tp function incorporates a time frame where I could be teleported to the wrong shop repeatedly which does not sell what I want to buy, it's like being forced to watch 20 ads before reaching the website you actually want to get to.
Assuming per faction stores are not feasible due to the elastic size of a faction, and assuming all active players need to have the right of a shop, we're talking 600+ players here, if one were to assume the economic participation of every person who made a chest for the server reset (which is over 600 right now). The amount of shop to set up, the amount of tp regions to set up, the amount of time you're just spamming the /random shop to to reach a store that has what you want. Not a great prospect.
Pulling back to Massive's older economy:Spawn in SilverEdge had a number of shops, two flanking spawn were owned by staff who bought and sold standard gear for high prices to "help new players out" (read: thicken their own bank account), and the rest of the shops functioned more like embassies anyway since nobody could ever really compete with xsamboix and Igel_son. Marketing was local. Trade was local. A faction had a commuting region where they would visit another faction and do local trade agreements, and this inherently worked. Yes, it meant that trade was inherently a dangerous business, you could be raided on the way there, you could actually be backstabbed while trading with your partner, etc, but it mostly worked, and for what didn't: you could just harvest whatever you wanted locally anyway since trade is not the lack of resources, rather it's the lack of the desire to wish to harvest those resources yourself and paying someone else to do it.
My tragic implementations there was exactly an attempt to centralize market places in a small area. The first few designs were utterly terrible, but through each design we went (about 3 or 4) they were all dominated by the exact same issue, the fact that close-by shops, no matter how expensive, had ridiculously high income rates, while further away shops barely saw any traffic. Even when the market was split in various units, it always just resulted in the first tp getting the most traffic. If random teleports are the only solution to this, to create freedom of advertisement and independence of content to location, then it isn't really a solution as much as it comes with its own problems as outlined above.
I think the true solution to this re-occurring problem is not a centralized market place, because a centralized marketplace only achieves a few things:
Players become lazy and stop trying to vend their goods, merely content at creating a shop that requires them to no longer log on.
Players become uncompetitive on the market, and when they have acquired a good position, stop adjusting their pricing.
The reality is that Massive offers a huge scale of advertisement capacity that is simply never used. Be it the forums, be it the server Trade chat. Vendors aren't pushing for their sales anymore, no "anyone want to buy XYZ for 0.2 regals a piece?" in Trade Chat. No more threads going up on the forum "you can get XYZ for 0.2 as Salemslot, but you can get it for 0.15 with us!". The death of the market place was never ill reach ability or commuting distance, it was exactly the centralization and then death of competitiveness, apathy of early market starters who wanted to just dump their items on a common market, get a quick buck, and aim not to compete for a long term investment.
So, at the end of the day, every solution has major flaws. One causes a lack of competitiveness, one causes a lack of transparancy, one causes dangers in trade, and overall, they all come with their unique points that cause less trade to occur, and less finances to be made. Which argues for something that will outcompete all these problems: A server wide Auction plugin. And as it so happens, there is a bunch of them available, so I will look at that right now and report back if I find something useful.
That being said, if I do not find something we can use, we will steam ahead with no /tp market. A market where players who own shops close to entry, is a no-go. Coding a random tp-entry is a no-go. With both being a no-go, the localized faction based markets are the only option we have left.
I never claimed I thought Winterless was anyone's mouth piece nor did I think his opinion was relevant to staff administration. I was just saying the level of immaturity he exemplified as someone who is a staff member - and should supposedly be above pettiness - is unprofessional and paints a very negative picture of the staff on this server. My intentions in that statement weren't to say the idea was flawless and demands to be accepted I was just frustrated with Winterless' lack of acknowledgement for what was a pretty reasonable argument.
If you look through this thread its evident that it didn't take much to upset Winterless and provoke him to act like a child. And to be quite honest MonMarty, as someone who respects you and the work you do for the server, for you to paint Winterless' actions as him voicing his opinion is disappointing.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but calling factions and players annoying, as a staff member crosses boundaries and creates a hostile environment for everyone. Rather than pull up videos and continue to reference past actions on the server Winterless could have handled the situation maturely and left it alone, rather than choose to buy into our badgering.
I respect your belief that a central market would not be a successful system to implement and thats fine - what I was trying to do in the comment you chose to quote me on was highlight how Winterless placed his opinion above all else and was trying to use our often childish and belligerent actions to negate the idea and arguments Gumee provided.
Regardless of mine and Mazukii's actions - which I'm in no way defending - Winterless' actions as someone who is staff are below where I and I'm sure other members of the community hold and see staff members and the way they present themselves.
I'm not going to pretend to sit on my high horse here, I'm just trying to highlight how poorly the situation was handled, and how easily riled someone who is supposed to be a level-headed mediator acted when a very basic level of immaturity was directed towards him.
I understand this, but the transition period is stressful for everyone, staff members most of all. I am trying to take the anger and frustration in stride and be solution oriented for now. If this behavior persists after the reset, then sure, we can make business out of it. But as it stands, I would prefer to keep the inner and outer peace while we transition than to get stuck on some sort of community drama.
You yourself admit to childish and belligerent behaviour, yes?
I was using this past history of childish and belligerent behaviour and the effect it had on people raiding you to demonstrate that you can indeed receive backlash for behaviour like flame, troll raiding, and killing people at faction shops, thus negating one of your member's points that people wouldn't raid Vanos for their behaviour ingame.
I don't see how that argument points to me being immature and petty.
That speaks more to your faction, that you try and piss people off and provoke people to then turn around and use it as a "gotcha!" than it speaks of me.
You yourself called your faction annoying. I was just agreeing with you.
But eh, all this is fine. I tried to have an extended conversation with your faction about this idea, but you seem more intent on twisting my words and trying to find ulterior motives then actually having a discussion. In future I'll be sure not to do that, so that I don't come off as "immature" and "unprofessional." Perhaps deliberately trying to annoy people and then pointing at it and going "Ha! Look at that! They're the immature one, because they reacted to me!" isn't a good way of discussing features and ideas. Then again, I'm old fashioned like that.
you guys are all extremely gay smh
good idea btw
Im fine with markets being run by factions.
Salemslot had a good system where if you tried to pvp/raid at the shop your faction would be enemied and barred access from the shop.
I'm getting rather bored of responding to your attempts at trying to hold conversation and argue intelligently for yourself in order to defend your side of the argument.
You can say I twisted your words and made you seem like a bad staff member (boohoo), but bottom line is you spend a solid 6 hours engaging in petty argument with a faction of casual players known for enjoying getting a rise out of inexperienced and immature staff.
Since this is apparently a foreign concept to you my dear friend, I'll make things easier.
YOU as a STAFF MEMBER are held to an entirely different degree and expectation of professionalism where I as a CASUAL PLAYER have almost nothing expected by me - by pretty much everyone - except basic rules and common sense.
I didn't work tirelessly to achieve a rank that illustrates the epitome of maturity: you did.
If you really want to spend your time arguing with people you know are trying to get a rise out of you thats your choice, but don't act surprised that I can act maturely and have someone agree your actions as a STAFF MEMBER were out of line.
To be clear this is my last response on this thread.
Thanks, hope this helped.
Looks like the Auction House is a go-to solution. Crazy Auctions has been installed on the server and is integrating well with out other plugins.
I tried to read all the posts and the only thing I saw was people yelling about pvp and crap. I don’t care.
What if we had a shop that existed entirely in text? Lemme explain
I have seen this shop used before and it is called /qs. Basically every shop has a physical chest shop in it but using /qs coal for example shows every single price anyone is selling coal for in order of price and also shows if it is in stock or not. This can be directly bought from the menu. No travel needed. However! If you do travel you don’t pay a DELIVERY FEE which is a small cost to ordering the item right to your inventory. The choice is yours.
If I didn’t explain this well enough let me know and I can give a more in depth guide.
Auction House exists as well as /trade and trade chat. A market is unnecessary and I've been satisfied with the new plugin.
Guess this can be marked as implemented?
Maybe there should be a virtual marketplace. Like auction house but a different link for each player, they can rent the links at the same price as they would a shop. It’s more convenient for everyone, does lag out like /to market does, and still is no chance of camping good spots because they’re all pretty much the same.
I only brought this up cuz it’s relevant again lol