2019 Noble System Revision

Discussion in 'Roleplay Discussion' started by MonMarty, Jan 4, 2019.

  1. MonMarty

    MonMarty Thotdodger Staff Member Server Owner

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    Introduction
    Noble Revisions, they are as old as Massive is, and for good reason. Any system needs to be shaken up every so often to stave off complacency and boredom. For nobility this is doubly true, because in the past we have invested a lot of effort to ensure the trickle down roleplay working for the community as an additional crutch for activity. The conflicts of nobility, and the social ladders they present, were always a good means for players to get ahead. Following my takeover of MassiveCraft last year, the system was put on serious ice. Most of the executive forces were given to the players instead of the Noble Managers in fear of overbearing paperwork. As time went by however, the need for paperwork became less, and time held for reflections increased.

    Nobility has always suffered a huge problem: How to make everyone stop being cowards. Inherently, everyone in nobility /wants/ to play the game of politics, but everyone is /too afraid/ to do so, because of the uncertainty of negative consequences. Whether it be at the hands of a massive alliance, an OOC deadlock, or simple inaction, Noble conflict was like playing Russian roulette with 1 of the 6 chambers empty, with your hands tied behind your back, and having the trigger pulled by someone else. Numerous attempts were made to shore up this problem by forcing conflict, for example with the Great 3 of Drixagh, the tension between Howlester and Zastorzy, the Harhold-Veer crisis, and more. Ultimately however, they always resulted in the exact same response: Nobles mobilizing their troops and fortifying their lands, and then staring at each other from a cross a really tall fence, and hurling Forum insults at each other without any action.

    It caused these weird fluctuations where something would happen, the nobles would rush to plot, days of activity was given, and then nothing. When things got pressing, the nobles either switched to criminal alt characters, submitted in defeat or passiveness, or flat out left the server because the dread of losing imaginary reputation became too much to bear. After more considerations, I believe I've finally found a major crux in Nobility that caused the situation to be what it is today.

    The Issue of Nobility
    The Issue of Nobility can actually easily be identified by comparing it to say, the game Crusader Kings 2. Here, you (usually, unless you're a doorknob) start as a Count of XYZ province somewhere. Through conquest and marriage you can quickly expand, but rarely if ever do main terrain segments stay in-tact. For example, I as count of Holland once inherited the Kingdom of Navarra, which I made my main title. My Holland County was eventually lost in a succession crisis to one of my brothers, and so in the time span of a few decades, my characters had switched from Dutch lowlanders, to Pyrenees Navarre. While this is perhaps not as fluidly possible in nobility (because most of our characters are self-inserts) it brings up the comparable problem: Identity extension. In Crusader Kings 2, specific land plots are a means to an end. They are a stepping tone to greatness, prestige, piety, a Kingdom, and Empire, and more. In MassiveCraft Nobility, the titles are the achievement in itself. I believe that the player base does not see the land and title as a tool to engage with, but an extension to themselves.

    Noble Families are all dressed in the same clothing representing their house's colors, and all have the same physical traits as if they are terrible inbred, but somehow aren't according to their family tree (I know this is ironic of me to say since I was the one who popularized wearing your family's colors years ago, but to my defense, I also tried to get rid of it in vain). Family lands are the /perfect/ match for their rulers, complimenting their aesthetic or their personality in an absolutely perfect way. It's almost like the players in nobility treat their lands as a non-living but ever present extension of their character or a representation of their character. Like the one cannot live without the other, and this is the crux of this problem, the over self-identification with lands held by characters, leading to extreme aversion to even the idea of losing anything. If a loss was imparted, it would feel like a piece of the character was destroyed, which in turn feels like an attack on the person behind the screen. Not just "another stepping stone" like it would be in CK2.

    Is this an unreasonable case to have, are the noble players somehow at fault? No, not for the most part. The mentality has come over time, both by stories of loss that were done in the past and unclear regulations on continuation. The Noble managers put too much stress on performance in the system with what was given, and did not give enough afterthought. It would seem however, that at a first glance, most issues stem from this central problem. The nobles become lethargic and complacent because the status quo suits them. Anything unexpected, anything chaotic, might result in a loss of eminence, which in itself feels like a loss of a part of a character. Loss is such a dreaded concept, that it is paralyzing. But in identifying this concept, there are obvious pathways to fix it. I should say in advance, not every noble functions the same way. We've always maintained that nobility should function a certain way, and have tried pushing in that direction, but never to the fullest of commitment. As such, I clarify, that these changes are going to happen, regardless of how many people it upsets, regardless of how many people turn away from nobility, and regardless of how many tongues waggle with doomsday predictions. Nobility should function a certain way, and we suspect not every family is capable of functioning in how we always envisioned nobility should function. This means that if we lose a third or even half the noble families, this is an acceptable collateral damage, for the sake of the remaining population. Half an active population, is still better than a full inactive population.

    What does this mean

    • The Application system remains the same. We're very happy with how the application system works right now, and we're also pleased with the success rate of new families. We're hit a nice good spot with the recruitment mechanic so that remains unchanged.
    • The War System will remain with the Casus Belli creation idea. There will be no hard numbers, no math, no game plan based on stacking numbers together for instant-victory. Nobility voted for the lack of numbers in the last poll, but I am personally also of the opinion that allowing hard numbers to exist gives Nobles the means to deadlock their own game play. If everything is an unknown and an unexpected disappointment or surprise, then no outcome is ever guaranteed and everyone can rest assured that there is a chance of winning anything. How this system works will soon be announced along with the Imperial Court Favor announcements.
    • NPC Families are being scrubbed from the System, bar some really important factors like the Anahera Cabal, the Vultarin Hegemony and the Calemberg Arch duchy. It is impossible for us to simulate 30+ noble families and have them organically respond to the politics of the PC families without going through a 3 A3 checklist each time someone so much as farts in the direction of another noble house. Some of those important NPC's remain because of story relevance, and maintain their own agenda, but they will not actively seek expansion at the expense of players, unless the players challenge them or get them on board with their own plans.
    • Empty lands will be filled with spheres of influence, meaning each Noble Family will receive more land, but some empty spots will remain for the sake of Court Intrigue. What this means is that if a conflict should break out between let's say house Sorenvik and Yaotl, that peripheral lands away from the core region (where the sea of power/capital is) will be fought over, before the heartland. This cushions the immediate peril of warfare. It's like playing with glass beads given by your friends which are all kind of second hand, but leaving grandpa's special glass bead for last. Ducal families will be compensated with a bigger sphere than counts, who are bigger than barons, etc. In terms of manpower and income however, these are utterly irrelevant. Income and manpower will always be dictated by how well the lords can convince their subjects to support their cause. If a Duke is a tyrant, he may find less soldiers fight for him than the beleaguered baron, or at least fight with less defensive vigor.
    • Wars will last longer. In the past, wars (for example between Peirgarten and du Pont) were over in a few days. A single battle decided the fate of the Peirgarten lands instantly, and the occupation experienced no resistance. In real life, occupation resistance as well as longer sieges were far more prevalent, even rebellions in relatively stable lands for a variety of reasons. Wars will be protracted by requiring the siege of numerous strongholds on each noble lands, which each take time turn in turn. This allows for more flexible sides on wars that aren't decided in a matter of hours, or before they are even started.
    • All titles can be lost, indefinitely, but not permanently. What this means is that if a Noble loses control over all land they own, they will (like in the terms of Paradox Games) at 100% war score instant surrender. This means that they have to accept any terms placed on them by the victor of the war, even if this means they lose all their lands. This is however not the end of nobility because titles will become floating. For example, if the Duke of the Southlands has all their lands conquered by House du Pont, they become "Duke at Court". They retain their title and can still operate in nobility from the capital, still owning wealth stored in banks, and their estates in the capital city. The benefit here is that loss is never final. There are a number of wars a noble family can get their land back, or operate without land indefinitely, or get an entirely new strip of land assigned. More info on this later.
    • The Assembly is being ctrl+alt+deleted. The Assembly is really tough, it's a 20 man voting squad where most voters don't care, or have a vested interest in simply doing nothing. Instead, we're moving to the Emperor's Royal Cabinet (consisting of Dukes and Counts), an entirely new system where a small select group of speakers may address the Emperor during weekly Audiences. When addressing the Emperor, someone may propose a piece of legislation and defend their case directly to the Emperor. Convincing one voter is always easier than 20 voters, especially when that one voter (me) has a vested interest in seeing things change and develop. Furthermore, those wishing to argue against a proposal can elect another speaker from their midst to debate in front of the Emperor, who will act as mediator. To allow more width, a few families who are hopefuls will be upgraded to Count Families (as Barons are barred from speaking to the Emperor directly). The families facing promotion are: de Letoirneau, von Rahm, Delmotte, Carwell, Rote and du Pont. This decision was made by a combination of 1. assuming competency 2. history of "stirring shit" and 3. likelihood of their promotion causing more drama. More details on the Assembly will be posted soon, and how non-Nobles can get involved. No more dragging long debates, no more voting deadlocks. Just a single person to convince, and more activity to get there.
    • The Imperial Court is still underway, but also with part of the Honneurs system intact. Imagine court politics like a bar of -5, 0, and +5. Everyone is at 0, and if someone can make a habit of embarrassing or humiliating other noble families to the court, they become -5, or intimidating. Inversely, if other noble families sing the praises of a particular family they become +5, or favored by the court. Either side, either tactic, can result in title grants and additional bonuses. Additional titles within the court will come into being, reminiscing the old flavor titles but also function titles. A thread will be dedicated to the Imperial Court soon.
    • Military positions are back as well. We're looking into military cabinet meetings and returning the old principle of the Mark generals who get assigned to war marks for foreign conflicts. More details on this later.
    • House Kade and House Howlester remain in their shared DM position as the "Safety Button" of nobility in case things go south, in case players start abusing each other for the sake of it, or in case something starts sliding sideways out of the realm of lore viability. These houses will not expand, ever, period. House Kade will not get involved in any military conduct, while Howlester might send smaller volunteer forces, but will principally also not involve themselves with the dealings of the lower nobles unless they attempt to challenge Howlester Authority over their respective territories and offices.
    • In game progressions for relevancy. Major battles in the field or sieges should remain on forum progressions, but we're looking into allowing small strike teams to for example assassinate a captain, burn a supply cache, kill a messenger, kidnap an NPC relative, small actions that can have major concerquences between the nobility. In the past we could never really settle to move some activity in-Game which resulted in a feeling of noble progressions being very distant. Now, we might be able to finally make those activities very relevant to everyone by creating special teams achieving major milestones in a conflict.
    If anyone feels these changes are going to ruin nobility, the best way to go about dealing with those feelings is to resign the family from nobility. I feel however, that I've made it clear to every person joining nobility that nobility is A. Stressful B. Requires you to accept winning and losing and C. Is often also in service to other players in the community. If these factors cannot be accepted, one is left to wonder why the individual even signed up to nobility to begin with. Massive Nobility is not about feeling better than other players and abusing them with the signature of the server to do so, it's about creating a realistic social strata with all the intrigue of nobility in a medieval universe that is normally not accessible for commoners.

     
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    #1 MonMarty, Jan 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  2. Conflee

    Conflee Me an the bois at 3 am lookin for BEANS!

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    Is there any chance of the Foreign war / Mark side being allowed some extra tactical wiggle room? I can understand PC v PC wars getting too gamey such, but against NPC states theres nobody getting kicked down at least. I personally always wanted into Military RP specifically for the kind of gamey high risk stuff. Even if its not direct numbers crunchy, it'd be fun to have freedom to embellish with strategy and such.
     
  3. Reaganism

    Reaganism 40th President of the United States

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    I will re-iterate a set of arguments that have been repeated by the many noble players who brought activity but have since left the server. And some of my own.

    How will you prevent nobility from gang****ing a house or faction? This has been an issue unaddressed that has been brought up over and over again by at least four groups of noble roleplayers who have left the server, and has seen at least a further three leave due to it.

    How will you enforce consequences? What will prevent players or player groups from pressuring you into concessions and OOC mercy one way or another? Once again, I have reported two instances of this in the past.

    An issue of my own, but what concessions and motivations are you planning to implement in order to encourage cultural, noble-looking and authentic roleplay instead of a conglomeration of similar, modern /pol/ leaning group of slapstick friends? In my opinion, the gradual decline and fall in cultural / niche roleplay within nobility has contributed greatly to its staleness.

    How will you ensure that newcomers to the scene will be able to integrate and will have their own bargaining chips? Even undercover, as Audrey, I found that only the Krupp-clique actually roleplayed a necessity/thrive for recruitment whereas the rest found my new noble character a useless event prop, no matter our military/politics/manpower/activity.

    Are you planning to address excess toxicity and metagaming in the noble scene? Eg., the only time I actually passed a report on metagaming the time it took to handle was so long my character was practically ruined when the retcon verdict was given.

    Are you planning to address cliqueplay? Are you planning any concessions or encouragement for people to actively interact outside their group of friends? Even when nobility was ten times as active and numerous, shutting ourselves into groups was a big issue. This I saw in 2015, 2016, 2017 and my brief time in 2018 as well.
     
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  4. Arhbi

    Arhbi Peacemaker Supremium

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    I'm pretty sure there's been a heavy emphasis on the fact that if people start bullying individual houses with large factions, or just go on a terror spree, that the DM houses will get involved to curb that behavior.
     
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    #4 Arhbi, Jan 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  5. Reaganism

    Reaganism 40th President of the United States

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    This never functioned properly (except for a few examples), and disfunctioned more in the recent past than it ever had before. While I cannot pass accurate judgement on Billy's handling of the Howlesters as a DM family since the change, there are obvious concerns regarding that as the Howlesters/Coens have been notorious for dogpiling and targeting players / player groups.

    Coincidentally, the only time I saw DM families intervene successfully and settle an elimination / extermination game was first in my character's case, then in Billy's.
     
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  6. Vivo_Et_Vincam

    Vivo_Et_Vincam The Walking Spreadsheet

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    I agree with these, I wish to know as well how you plan to do so. Especially the first and last one, the second it's just up to the players involved to either play like it's roleplay or play like it's life.

    Edit: the first and last of MY list, I cut out two of his.
     
  7. MonMarty

    MonMarty Thotdodger Staff Member Server Owner

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    I don't think this is possible in city-rp. If Harhold drums up 20 players when Longsae only has 2, I can't tell 18 of the others to go offline again. In the system however, I think the Casus Belli System imparts a level of artificial fairness. As a general trend, bullies who use overbearing numbers will get less troops from their mayors and aldermen than an outnumbered individual who is fighting to defend his land from being annexed. The system balances itself. I also place subtle brainwashing in groups to limit stonewalling by dropping hints to them in Discord that they shouldn't aid a side that is already overpowered.

    Harder attitude. I don't know what it's referring to but I'm less concerned about keeping everyone on board now.

    I don't know. Can hardly pressure people to take culture seriously when a modern globalizing world makes culture in itself a novelty. I'm dealing with the cards given, not looking at a family and telling them to read 3 books and watch 3 netflix series to roleplay characters better. I'm not in the business of openly chastising others for not roleplaying out a role realistically when they are already doing their best.

    Everyone is essentially currently on the same playing field. Theoretically if XYZ new Dwarf noble family plays the CB clauses well, they could end up having a larger mobilized army than house Yaotl. The system is completely equal now. There are no number sheets declaring superiority of one party over the other, and most titles are flavor (if you discount Imperial protocol which is important for maintaining good relations with the Court).

    I am. You're banned from the RP Discord for that very reason. We're taking a harsher stance against people who just troll others or cause shitty situations.

    I think that's a matter that cannot properly be solved, unless I actively went out of my way to tell friends they aren't allowed to ally one another. What I did do, is put people who I know are OOC friends in each other's expansion hemisphere. I know for example that du Pont and Yaotl are pals with Harhold (and no surprise there, they all frequent the same discord), so I put Harhold and du Pont lands in the natural expansion sphere of House Yaotl, similar arrangements exist in the colonies and in the Elven lands. That's probably as far as I can go, minus some court protocols that reduce someone's respect value if they sit in iron clad alliances. I think trying to solve OOC alliances is completely pointless. You think Krupp didn't do it, I know Krupp did, because they took orders from Teamspeak, where I was in too. You also constantly shored up your activities with your discord pals, and it's like a circle of never ending fun. Even people who work together for the first time end up gravitating to the same discord and then become solid allies who never betray each other.

    We can't function in an environment like old country where political process is inserting a scheming rat into another discord and having them mole all their information from within in an OOC method. Friends will always favor each other or at the very least not back motions against their friends, and even if the first time they don't do it with a stranger, that stranger becomes their friend anyway and it becomes much of the same. There is no structural fairness in friends joining up together, so trying to solve it, or pretending that one is above this, seems like a really pointless endeavor.

    As the person who managed the system, I have never ever met a person who has never at any point in time allowed their decisions and conduct get influenced based on the social circles they surrounded themselves with. It's probably more practical as such to simply embrace this behavior as fact instead of trying to chastise everyone and working really hard to find a way to work around it, instead of just going with the flow and reducing the impact of it.

    We never needed to before, or more specifically, we never could before. I used soft cap support for Anahera/Lo when politics were swaying against them, using Kade weight to make the playing field more "fair", but ultimately DM investment is kind of new. It's only been since the last 2 years or so that the nobles have really started leaning towards a referee role being present and expressing a sort of "Okay enough is enough" attitude to problem makers. Still, this has to be attached to rules and processes so it doesn't just come swinging out the air.
     
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  8. Last_Link

    Last_Link Dont be that guy

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    Not really related, but is it possible to get players to play our minor local lords? Have thought about it for a while.
     
  9. Vivo_Et_Vincam

    Vivo_Et_Vincam The Walking Spreadsheet

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    Aye, I have lore on several minor Houses within the Barony that I'd like to see be brought to Regalia one day. (Not approved of course cause I havent finalized and sent the document to you for canonization)
     
  10. MonMarty

    MonMarty Thotdodger Staff Member Server Owner

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    No. Players will not play minor lords. That would influence the fairness component if you could just bribe your friends to support your cb.
     
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  11. Reaganism

    Reaganism 40th President of the United States

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    Oh, that's dryh***ing a noble family, not what I meant. Specifically, I meant the tendency of Massivecraft's noble scene to proclaim public enemies seemingly randomly, and various families teaming up on them, even those families that are normally inactive, and even those families who would be rather obviously on the losing side if their target fell. To me, it always felt like the possibility of OOC antagonisation, toxicity or broken friendship is a much larger threat than anything that could happen IC to a character, and thus inconsistent / non-IC decisions will be made.

    Two examples:
    The team-up on Krupp led by Typhonus (which happened the day prior to the assembly outtake) in the military summit, after which Typhonus purged 90% of the military leadership that was present and teamed up on Krupp.

    The team-up on d'Ortonnaise, after which Peirgartens were invaded and Howlesters would have been removed from nobility again, if not for the assembly rule change.

    There's also the case of team-ups when the "good" side sees a chance to triumph, the chance to defeat someone or the chance to participate in a story. Take the recent Synod example.

    All in all, people always chose, by default, the side that remained constant over the years over the side that was changing. Because, obviously, when one side seems to survive everything and their enemies destroyed and gang-teamed every other month, there is a heavy OOC drive to choose one over the other.

    Mind, I used the words "concessions" and "motivations" in place of "enforcement" or "pressure". I lost belief in the ability to pressure, push or enforce matters since most players (including me) just leave and look for another platform if they are pressured or forced into matters they heavily disagree with.

    I will ask this way, then: Do you agree or disagree with the statement that cultural depth, variety and attention to detail used to enrich noble roleplay?

    I do think it was a great portion of the fun. Especially since culture-related fun is non-confrontational and does not usually lead to character rivalry / death / family elimination. But a lot of interactions still. How I miss those Devereux parties...

    There is a great deal of "resources" you don't account for. Leadership over charters, organisations. Leadership in progressions. Imperial court positions. Leadership in the military. So to say, compare government and the infamous deep state. You can alter the system to allow for a freeflow government where newcomers can interact, but the "deep state" will be there and newcomers will have a very hard time securing any sense of accomplishment, influence or power. And as long as there is none, the big families will just toss smaller ones aside. And even if you toss newcomers into the system, the point I raised about clique RP means they may just end up having a position by name and no ability to influence, do stuff or even interact with the stuff they are supposed to interact with. That's what happened with the newborn miss_ortonnaise.

    How do you ensure big families don't sideline, ignore or just shit on new families? They don't want to "accomplish" anything, they want to retain power. All they will want is vassals, and to keep low families vassals forever (thus sentencing them to the slow valor / heinrich / crawley / cauthin / cerdici / etc death).

    I can tell, the healthiest noble political rivalry I ever had was against one of the closest MCRP OOC friends I had, which is good. However, I see you risk something here: it's either they will enter a clean and decent conflict, or they will avoid conflict to retain pristine OOC relations.

    Exactly. But this also makes your job harder, because when one guy gets pissed off, he will echo it in the discord and will get the others pissed too, who will leave. This means that you won't be losing players, but whole player groups and cliques.

    Interestingly, I saw DM Emperor far less active recently than in the past. To state, the most influential interventions post-screamer time seem to dwarf in the shadow of interventions you approved / roleplayed Baba-managed times. Elimination of families, fights on the streets, deep-growing corruption, these were all intervened against to keep up the strict up-nosed RP of nobility.

    Heck, the Chancellor was punished in court for slapping a lady.

    Even worse, I saw in recent times that the DM roles were far more political than game-mastery. The law-protection of Harhold, the trial against the Coens, the Synod-manipulation. These don't seem DM-y to me at all.
     
    #11 Reaganism, Jan 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
  12. Film_Noir

    Film_Noir Snowdonian Pirate

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    I think that the system in place now is one of the fairest and most enjoyable that have been implemented to date. I think that the customised canonisation of each family that Marty is setting up (and which has been in place for a number of months now, really) is a brilliant idea: it provides fluidity and flexibility in terms of story-telling, and gives each family uniqueness and identifiable bargaining chips that are sought after by other nobles, as each family thus has something that other nobles families want. Yet, each family has their weaknesses too, which drives them to interact and seek out other houses for help.

    There are no hard numbers. The system is more difficult to "game" now and there are allowances and provisions made for smaller or independent families to be able to stand up to "cliques", as Marty has already said.

    Yes, there are cliques. We all know it, and in the past, the existence of cliques has caused some issues that has led to stagnation in gameplay and bad feelings in general.

    In the past, there have been systems that I personally call the "playing the spreadsheet, having house guards + tavern tea parties = titles, but boring and stagnant noble rp" system, that didn't work very well in my opinion. You did have cliques of families (I felt) that would monopolise the State Council and Synod, voting themselves in and giving each other positions and Synod favour, which resulted in a cyclical phenomena where these families would have more and more titles and stronger armies. Meanwhile, everyone else would be locked out of the positions and government, and be receiving Writs of Sin, etc. Thus, you had families who could never really make any headway.

    Were the "cliques" doing anything wrong? No, not really, they were only playing the system that was in place at the time. But yes, it was a bit of a miserable experience for others.

    But. This old system is gone. Good riddance. Don't come back. The new system is working, I think, and as long as the smaller houses or newer houses or independent houses don't lose their heads and stand up for themselves and be patient, they should be ok.
     
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    #12 Film_Noir, Jan 5, 2019
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  13. FireFan96

    FireFan96 Ever present, Ever seeing Staff Member Lore2

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    Assuming you mean the d'Goss Chancellor claim and the fracture between the state council and synod, we're still seeing the aftermath of that. The Synod appeared to have been thotcrushed in game, but around the world several states seceded and the Empire (in my opinion) is only 50% of what it used to be before that. The thotcrushing led to a consequence that has yet to be mended (Ithania is a big example), showing that at times there are actions that get thrown in to show that ganging up on an entity can have serious consequences that aren't apparent in day to day rp.
    I was on the Synod side of that whole shindig, losing my government position and ultimately family in the long run. Though it was a lot more enjoyable to be on the underdog side since just ganging up has no benefits long term. I've ganged up with nobles to try and removed Montagaard from power, and failed. I've sided with the losing Synod and lost. In the former I just went along with the friend groups to try and fight with no reason (I was the Kaisermark general still iirc). In the later I went with IC choices and had fun standing down the Violets while smoking a cigar and attempting to mediate peace between factions.
    Bit rambly to address one small comment on a thread but the take away message is that players should hopefully acknowledge that thotcrushing isn't always the best course of action.
     
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  14. Reaganism

    Reaganism 40th President of the United States

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    All players seem to have quit or left the Synod side. Direct side, that is.

    And that is the main issue. The thotcrushing is usually done to such a degree that it makes day-to-day playing of characters impossible. To the point where even showing up in the city may get you randomly, childishly insulted then assaulted eithout consequence since nobody will enforce a consequence.

    The majority do not stay and fight, but leave.
     
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  15. Vivo_Et_Vincam

    Vivo_Et_Vincam The Walking Spreadsheet

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    Lmao that has happened to me like 4 times, 'hunted like a hog' and 'Baron beating' as they and I call it. Tho to be honest Med, I find that situations like this arent the end of the world. The primary point of this server and us is to /generate roleplay/. Even if the person being ganged up upon is in an unfair situation, life isnt fair. I'm still 100% fine after having two thirds the city try to kill me, only in situations when the /House/ is being threatened, meaning completely out of nobility full annexation, is not right when its a 20 v 1. If its something such as the current schemes, who cares it's roleplay its not like it's going to get anyone's OOC reputation ruined.
     
  16. Vivo_Et_Vincam

    Vivo_Et_Vincam The Walking Spreadsheet

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    Snipped out parts I didnt care to reply to-- 'gang banging' the antagonist side or protagonist side, whichever is more popular, is something that will always happen unless a balance of power is established. It is up to the DMs, and more specifically, the Houses under them such as Harhold and von Rahm, to make those balances. If we have a balance of power, that will cause wars to be far less frequent and far more 'World War'y, where its two great alliances facing off and where in the end the balance is lost and one side wins. There is always a winner and a loser. The problem might be is once these Houses win now what, they're just going to keep destroying the losers right? Usually, its up to the decisions of the players. Heck, I as Longsae, an ANGLE VEER HOUSE, wanted to Ally with Harhold in my beginning days before my fiasco where a threat of war came to myself, even though my entire clique of friends was against him. Clique players do exist, but not to the extent you might think. There are still the few remainders of us who roleplay as the character, and the character alone, and these 'balance breaker' players, the ones who join their IC friends and not OOC, likely are the ones who drive a lot of the less gang banging roleplay and more of the legitimate rivalries and such, because they are unwilling to just ally with their friends on the pure purpose of 'My friends dont like this guy so I dont either.' Not only, but where was there ever a system of mulitpolarity where everything was even, and there was never a 'winning side.' Sometimes gang banging is required, for instance, in the Napoleonic wars, against a hegemon, and sometimes gang banging isn't necessarily required but more just something that happens. Its not always I am teaming up against you because my friends are.

    The point is, to wrap up my rant, is that these problems can't be fixed, and if they were it either would limit roleplay, or make things even staler with nothing happening than they were before the select few houses starting s*** began doing so. The problem of ooc and ic relations messing with things WILL NOT CHANGE. What can change is you, myself, and the people in the system, IF they are willing to do so. Instead of arguing to Marty on why ooc alliances are ruining the system, argue to him on perhaps how a balance of power could be established, which in my opinion Marty has done a great job of establishing one in the current new system with the DM's and the 'bonus to Houses under large threat' to their army compositions and size. The problem you're asking about isn't one that can be fixed, look for a problem that has a solution.

    Final Note; the 'new players' who have joined arent in as bad of a situation as you think, take it from the Longsae who's getting his a** kicked at this moment, and I don't even consider myself in a bad spot, not only is it just roleplay, but it's not like we're about to be annexed or something. If the big bad wolves want vassals, and someone else wants allies, the new players have the choice to gravitate to the allies and establish a sort of Holy Roman Empire of allies rather than a sort of hegemon with his vassals. Its not up to the bigger Houses on what the smaller do, its up to the new Houses, and them alone.
     
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  17. Last_Link

    Last_Link Dont be that guy

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    In regards to culture not being used properly and every house looking the same, id say thats more so politics. Ithanians may be more liberal leaning but that doesn't mean that a right leaning Ithanian house can't have value, as politics don't dictate a culture. New York is a blue state, but the culture of New York isn't being a democrat, its eating bagels and being an a-hole. The players play the right leaning houses because its safer and its easier. They don't want to handicap themselves more then they have to, especially if they are newer to noble rp. And that should be fine, as they really aren't all the same, houses like Harhold and Du Pont might have the same politics but their cultures are still very different. And the politics of a house doesn't always determine who they work with, Carwell is one of the more right leaning houses but still has wed with De Letoirneau, who are almost Jacobins.
     
  18. MonMarty

    MonMarty Thotdodger Staff Member Server Owner

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    I think what med was aiming for was what we consider a kind of inside meme culture assessment. At a first glance:
    • House Howlester claims Highland Ceardian, but only the leader of the family actually expresses the culture, the rest are standard English Ceardian, even though they are Ithanian/Velheimer/Ceardian in mixture.
    • House Yaotl doesn't do cultural expressions, largely because the Allar race lacks a cultural undertone besides Muh Lizards.
    • House Harhold does Anglian Peasant Rp, but picks the peasant theme and not any of the pleasant Anglian cultural notions.
    • House Sorenvik is appropriately Velheim.
    • House Ravenstad is appropriately Leutz-Vixe.
    • House Peirgarten claims Leutz-Vixe but on contradiction plays Ithanian.
    • House Black plays standard English Ceardian.
    • House Viduggla is appropriately Velheim.
    • House de Letoirneay is appropriately Ithanian.
    • House von Brühl is standard English Ceardian (even though Anglian or Alt-Regalian? I don't actually know).
    • House Drache is appropriately Alt-Regalian.
    • House von Rahm is appropriately Alt-Regalian, but something could be said about their Ithanian leaning principles of racial acceptance, and some of the strange female loving principles. It's hard to tell what culture they lean when you look away from the ruler.
    • House Delmotte plays standard English Ceardian despite proclaiming Ithanian.
    • House Carwell plays standard English Ceardian.
    • House Sastra plays appropriately Daendroquin.
    • House Saelanan plays very appropriately Altalar.
    • House Sterke-enn plays appropriately Velheim
    • House Longsae plays standard English Ceardian.
    • House Rote plays standard English Ceardian.
    • House du Pont plays standard English Ceardian despite proclaiming Leutz-Vixe.
    • House Krupp plays standard English Ceardian (despite being Velheim? Or Alt-Regalian?)
    What med is saying is that because more than half the nobility doesn't care to express a cultural identity or differentiation, that you're often talking to the same cookie cutter noble character. This usually falls down a number of standardized categories:
    • The typical uwu frail but intelligent noble girl who is soft spoken and curtsies and is a hopeless romantic.
    • The strong and masculine male smirking noble warrior with a six pack of abs and a long sword in hilt.
    I think that personally, it's a lot of adult attitude of enforcing an unrealistic expectation on people who are between the ages of 14 and 18, and are often not even set on their own persona and tastes yet, let alone express cultural nuances and character identity in roleplay. Nobility to me should be accessible to everyone of every caliber of play quality (within the scope of non rulers of course).

    I don't see the lack of cultural nuance that big of an issue. Does Peirgarten proclaiming Leutz-Vixe while playing 90% Ithanian irritate me in some way? Yeah, sometimes, because I wrote and co-wrote both cultures, and I feel usually culture just becomes a means to an end to slap on a backstory rather than a conscious choice, but there's a l0t of factors to this. Our "noble cultures" are extremely polarized, and I've found more often that people "accept" a culture, as opposed to actually choosing it because they enjoy it. I think that Peirgarten chose the Leutz-Vixe culture because they didn't want to be as extravagant as the Ithanian culture, but didn't want to pick a non-French culture, so they were forced to stick with Leutz-Vixe even though they express no part of it.

    The only solution I can give to this entire situation is to expand more family cultures. I'm about 80% sure that the Peirgartens will switch to the Genevaud culture when it comes out, largely because many of the culture writings are also inspired by the expressions of the nobles, their playstyle. It means it's more likely that a culture is to be picked up when it is released, as opposed to ignored. The Breton culture is styled after du Pont, Genevaud after Peirgarten, North-German one after von Rahm etc. They give a community basis and the nobles some stricter capacity to express a culture they are comfortable with instead of forced on them.

    Additionally I want to do more Jan Andermans events, where everyone chooses a different culture and spends a week reading the culture page up and down, and trying to express the cultural values in roleplay, which in itself is like a live lesson in cultural expression in roleplay. But that all depends on my active hours of course. Still, I don't see the problem as that drastically as a problem as med does. It's a flavor issue to me, not a fundamental shattering issue in nobility.
     
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  19. Reaganism

    Reaganism 40th President of the United States

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    The first part is the answer I expected, the latest paragraph is an initiative I am happy about. It's exactly the specific, tangible proposal in the category I tried to propose.

    I think it's an important flavour. Means character expression is valued over politics, which in turn spices development over gratification. It's also a field where conflict isn't a certainty, while it still provides roleplay content.

    @Film_Noir 's Merchants' Guild I miss dearly, and so I also miss the essays / stories / poetry that sometimes flared up.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Mekking1

    Mekking1 If specified, this will replace the title that dis

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    It honestly sounds to me like the issue is more a problem with the way people play their characters. I always prefer to have a special theme to my character and play them like they’re in some sort of ongoing narrative, adding personal battles and conflicts to make the character feel like a real person.
    Could I suggest encouraging Nobles to do the same? It would set a good example for the people on massive.
     
  21. Reaganism

    Reaganism 40th President of the United States

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    Lol, so you would disencourage people from playing an adopted, virtual version of their perfect self wholly unrelated to any present lore and able to be inserted into almost any fictional world who never gets into trouble nor has any flaws, only resolves them? Get out.
     
  22. Magivore

    Magivore No Rest For The Wicked

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    Maybe the reason you're having trouble finding nice people among nobility is because you're not being nice to other people. People react according to how others do, and the level of venom dripping from this post alone makes it very hard to appreciate all the work folks have done to reach this milestone.

    I'm not very well-versed in nobility, but to always see the changes move to try and help others while still having fun is very pleasant to see. Each revision seems to pull me closer to nobility, but from what I see in this case, it feels like this will probably help push the most narratives among families and those they interact with. Maybe that'll have to be the next 'scene' I get into... Good job, Marty!
     
    • Winner Winner x 9
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    #22 Magivore, Jan 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  23. Mekking1

    Mekking1 If specified, this will replace the title that dis

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    Me? I wouldn’t, I’ll just quickly get bored of RPing with people who clearly have no idea how protagonist vs self conflict works. That’s how I create an interesting narrative with my characters.
    Were I MonMarty, I would in fact do this simply by changing up the standards of character creation.
     
  24. Vivo_Et_Vincam

    Vivo_Et_Vincam The Walking Spreadsheet

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    Character creation isn't the problem. It's what happens after. You aren't forced to act like the sheet says, you can act differently by what's going on, even if it goes against the characters mentality, people do so. What the problem is POST character creation, where the character slowly shapes into a blocky version of the person behind it. There's no way to fix this problem as staff, as there is no way to force someone to act a certain way without being a Godly Dictator. Only way is if there are more players like Flugal, and I'd argue myself but that would be a biased argument.
     
  25. Mekking1

    Mekking1 If specified, this will replace the title that dis

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    I thought your “If more players were like Flugal” comment may have been mocking me at first but that’s probably untrue.
    Anyways my RP style is pretty much dead. I still do it this way because it’s the way I enjoy.
     

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