Under Review Factions Expansion: Empires And Ranks

Discussion in 'Feature & Idea Discussion - Archive' started by Mecharic, May 5, 2016.

  1. Aespair

    Aespair Am I the only one here?

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    I'll be responding to this when I get to PC
     
  2. Mecharic

    Mecharic I'm tempermental, deal with it.

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    Something to achieve/do.
    With regards to this, I did expand on it a little, but to put it simply, creating an in-game empire would be something even higher to aspire to than merely ruling a faction and trying to recruit over 100 people into it. I personally think it would draw more people onto the server (Build your Empire!) but this is mostly an opinion, so it can be voided as an argument I think.​
    Larger wars/conflicts.
    Currently wars on MassiveCraft are always the same few factions, with little incentive for more to join into their conflicts or for them to attack each others subfactions beyond "lol why not" (which, I admit, is generally good enough hue). However, if something like this was to exist suddenly having and protecting subfactions has a benefit beyond simply protecting ones honor - now you get paid a part of their taxes, so it's in ones best interest to care for their subfactions and rush to defend them. This would, in theory, expand PvP on MassiveCraft because now PvP factions would want/need enough people to protect all of their subfactions. As a non-PvPer, I don't know how accurate my judgement is, but if I was getting paid to protect people I'd do my damnedest to keep them safe - just like how i try to take care of faction members/recruits because they help pay the taxes hue.

    Alternately, to enforce an expansion of PvP on the server or to get people interested in it again, features could be added with this plugin that would include a Warscore of some sort, and have Imperial demands, such as giving over subfactions from one empire to another, which could create more reasons for different factions to PvP and would demand that anyone building an Empire in the survival worlds either be capable of PvP or have PvPers that support/aid them.​
    Better control/centralization of empires.
    Currently "Empire" means only that all members of your "empire" slap, say "-{Qaliphate}-" or "[Dominion]" in their faction description. There is no way to keep track of who's in your empire except to keep notes elsewhere (in a book, for example, or irl, which is pretty meta for a server with so much roleplay) or to /f f everyone you're allied to every time you need to list them. There are also no ways to prevent a faction some simply slipping out of your control by removing your "empire" from their description. With an Imperial expansion like this, Empires would be real. They would no longer just be "add [HSE] to your desc and we're cool" it would become an enforceable, coordinated, trackable setup of Subordinate factions and Imperial factions. Also, there is no control over subfactions. Empires get nothing from them except a chain attached to their leg and an excuse to go to war with each other over it. A subfaction can bail, it can go to war independently, it doesn't pay taxes or tribute to the overlord faction... nothing that would be roleplay-accurate happens with them.

    Now, I know a sort-of control can be maintained by attacking subfactions that bail on your empire or break your rules, and that is indeed realistic... so I suppose an argument can be made on realism that it should be handled in game, but much like my old Mechbank, it's pretty much impossible to use PvP for enforce something in-game when people can just go behind a wooden door to avoid you.​
    Deeper factions experience.
    This would divide factions into 3 types of faction: Imperial, Subordinate, and Independent. That alone creates deeper factions experience because now instead of all factions being exactly the same as the one next in line, a faction leader can weigh the cost & benefits of subordinating to an Imperial faction or becoming an Imperial faction. Yes it's more complex, but this *shouldn't* change the core features of factions, nor should "become subordinate" be included in the forced tribute rules (that should remain at maxtribute for forced truces). Most newer faction leaders wouldn't/shouldn't be looking into Empires/Subordinates for a short while into their rulership of a faction, so it would be much like getting into PvP or roleplay, you'd start medium and be able to either build bigger or build smaller as you choose. Currently you start medium and never go anywhere from there.

    Furthermore, with an expansion like this factions would be able to interplay in more politics. Sure, PvP will be a big factor in who becomes who's subfaction, but diplomacy will also be important. Piss off a faction and they'll never become subordinate to you (I'm looking at you Raptum hue), but if you work to become their friend before asking to vassalize them they'll be much more inclined to do so. This would force even big PvP factions to show some level of respect to smaller, less powerful factions, because now to expand their empire would actually cost those factions freedom (in exchange for tax benefits) rather than just being a factor of pride.​
    Tax benefits for the poor & tax hikes for the wealthy.
    I've gone over this, but I didn't suggest these solely to give benefits to subfactions and costs to imperial factions. The primary reason I thought that taxes would be a good idea was that they would be realistic. What kind of ruling party doesn't demand taxes from it's subordinate territories? This also acted as a trade of to keep the setup balanced - an Imperial faction would wield a heap of power over it's subordination factions, so it should have a cost for doing so. Likewise, subordinate factions lose a lot of freedom when becoming such, so they deserve to get something in exchange as a balance to that.

    Note: Remember that there are 2 Taxes for this - Imperial Factions pay more per chunk, Subordinate factions pay less per chunk - however, Imperial factions can also have a tax paid by Sub's into their own bank, but never enough to counteract the less-per-chunk tax cut of being a Sub.​

    Fair enough. I never heard that quote from Steve Jobs, and I didn't know there was any such background to it. Regardless... why do you have a Suggestions subforum if you think that? It self-contradictory lol

    Fair enough.

    With regards to complexity, it wouldn't be something that a brand new faction leader should suddenly encounter. Unless they're really unlucky/stupid/vocal, they probably won't even be noticed by any Imperial factions for a while, giving them time to learn about the system and the plugin overall long before actually being able/forced to take part in it. Add to this that it's not actually that complex an add-on from the players perspective* and it really would make it too much more difficult for people to handle I think.

    *Subordinate = Lower faction tax, loss of faction controls/autonomy. Imperial = higher faction tax, gain control over subordinate factions. Independent = Neither gain nor loss tax or autonomy. Things like an Imperial Chat would just be another chat, once you get into one you can get into them all, and an Imperial Bank would be something only the Imperial faction can access, if you've made one and don't know how it works that's on you for not doing your homework, same as with anything else on Massive.

    Of course. This is, after all, just a suggestion. If you think/know of better changes *cough* Ranks *cough* go for it, but still... maybe toss it on the "we'll get to it someday" list? xD

    Of course of course. Server needs should always take priority over player wants. I can't argue against that even if I wanted to. Focus on what's vital before looking into things that would be expanding on pre-existing features and aren't *necessary* for the server to run. By that token however, keep the suggestions in mind when you've run out of vital stuff to do, assuming that ever actually happens.

    It wasn't anything you said that was outright disrespectful, it was the lack of response overall (most of your responding comments are like, 2 sentences, tops, without having enough information to properly respond to, which in turn led to my not-so-useful response hue). I thought I'd said something that upset you, so I was apologizing in advance. I was also a tad worried my tone was a bit aggressive at points.

    Thanks for the in-depth response, I don't think you missed anything. Sorry for the wall-of-text response to your response. Not making your job easier am I? xD
     
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    #42 Mecharic, May 15, 2016
    Last edited: May 15, 2016
  3. Zacatero

    Zacatero Regalian High Lord

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    So to clairify... customizable ranks is a real possibility?

    (Of course you arent promising anything you are just giving your eductated opinion we know the drill)
     
  4. Madus

    Madus Robot

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    The idea overall has potential. But not only is Factions not our focus right now, this will be such a large project you shouldn't get your hopes up at all.

    Of course it is possible. But with the current system it will take quite some time to implement. We aren't working on Factions right now, so it is hard for me to say if and when this will be done.
     
  5. Gabauchi

    Gabauchi Goblin Babe (Local Hotsexy)

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    didn't steve jobs make his fortune off building his plants overseas and having people there work for below the American minimum wage?
     
  6. Mecharic

    Mecharic I'm tempermental, deal with it.

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    Ok, that's fine. Out of curiosity, what are you working on? I assume stuff for Premiums, but anything else that you can tell us? :P
     
  7. Madus

    Madus Robot

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    Currently I am trying to fix some bugs (I will not go into further detail). After that I expect to develop some premium features, a list of upcoming ones can be found here. I can't say precisely what I will do, mostly because I might try to do something and then suddenly I will have to pause my work on that for one reason or another.
     
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  8. Gabauchi

    Gabauchi Goblin Babe (Local Hotsexy)

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    wait help what did I miss))
     
  9. Legles101

    Legles101

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    I think improving faction permissions so that you could also set specefic perms for allies' recruits, members, officers, and owners would be just as good as adding "empires". Especially if you could do it for specefic factions instead of all allies together.
     
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  10. Aespair

    Aespair Am I the only one here?

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    There's /f access and /f perm set
     
  11. Legles101

    Legles101

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    I know, that's why I said to improve it. The problem is if you for instance allowed allies to build every one of your allies and every member in their factions can also build. It's also very tedious to go through large amounts of land using /f access especially if you need to do it with more than one person. Also I think having the option to let the leader of another faction (only the leader) deal with your factions relations and such would help empires tremendously.
     
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  12. Aespair

    Aespair Am I the only one here?

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    That's true
     
  13. Sir_Daragon

    Sir_Daragon Your Local Staff Member Game2

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    oi boy madus...that is long....
     
  14. Scarlett_Ice

    Scarlett_Ice Mole Woman

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    So I don't talk much here but wanted to say my thoughts.
    Right now, "empires" mean basically nothing on the server. I mean sure, we have the dominion, the qualiphate, etc. But nothing really makes them a real empire. Not on pc so can't pull quotes but someone mentioned how all joining an empire really involved was allying them and putting some line in your description. Then nothing. Factions in the same empire can be enemies and no one will care of try to fix it half the time.
    A while back Asteria was having a problem with Vanos, so finally we decided to join the dominion. We thought "hey, if we join the empire then they'll stop". Yet within a couple weeks they enemied us and the leader of the empire did nothing. If they became a real thing, all the sub factions would have to follow diplomacy the lead faction sets, making a more unified and stronger empire as a whole.
    Having it added would make empires a serious thing instead of just a handshake in a dark alley.
     
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  15. Aespair

    Aespair Am I the only one here?

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    Bump?
     
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  16. leichendame

    leichendame Regalian Pioneer

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    This is a great idea
     
  17. Arvallon

    Arvallon Arvanion Cyladhras of Avallónë

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    (And I was thinking it had been a much longer while since anything related to empires was posted)

    I was actualy going to do a post on empires... before I even saw this post I was thinking about doing a full write out about this topic again. But I gues I never realy took the time to first write it nor fully thinkout several of the concepts... I gues mercharic basicaly already mentioned all the primairy things I would have mentioned... However. I was also thinking one step further. I don't have time to write it all out now. Probably do this in the evening.

    I was wondering about empire wars to actualy allow empires to take over other subfactions... But like I said. I haven't thought the idea yet. So il probably just mention it again when I have. And another point I wanted to address... Empires could be the exclusive feature we could run to gain popularity again. Since eventhough this server is the birthplace of factions. I think we could realy use something that would set us appart from any other server. (And hopefull achieve server growth again (wich may lead to more donators too... just saying...))

    (but again Il do a proper mention of all this in the evening. So I finaly can give it a real effort this time.)
    Mech, I fully support it!
     
  18. Aespair

    Aespair Am I the only one here?

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  19. Arvallon

    Arvallon Arvanion Cyladhras of Avallónë

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    Alright here we go then xD...

    Empires has indeed been a long suggested thing. And for good reasons. I believe we came up with this idea before we even thought of adding in more ranks or other managment tool improvements. Simply because the idea was quite straightforward. But I think the value of this idea may be slightly underestimated. It something we all want. But could it possibly be something that massivecraft needs?

    I shall be honest. I am not the most active person on the server to keep track of everything. But if there is one thing that caught my attention, then its the servergrowth issue. And its an issue indeed looking at the very constant number of players online during morning and evening hours. (They are usualy about the same every day) And on the other hand we got the ever increasing need for premium perks. And as of very recent we now need new regal income method due to the vote eula thing. (very nasty that last one)

    Taking these issues in mind I agree that this empire thing is definatly not priority, and an easy to program thing even less so. If the idea were approved. I would not expect this to be implemented for quite a while. And more preferably, I don't want to. Better give these kind of things plenty of time to develop.

    Why empires? Why approve it? Let alone spend time developing it?
    We have seen great plugins rise up and get hyped troughout our time period. When for instance the movie hungergames was out, you would find lots of people recreating that into minecraft. Litteraly thousands of players played it. Plugins and gamemodes like hungergames realy got allot of populairity because they were a hype in their time. And people massively joined servers providing access to it. So why not create a little hype of our own? And why not have that hype be Empires? (unless you suprice us with that magic plugin ;p)

    (Although giving donators more perks or more ways to donate are two ways to generate income. Getting more donators to massive is one that should not be forgotten.)

    I probably do not have to explain more on the empire concept as it is quite well explained already in previous posts by others... (most notable one being Mecharic ;p)
    But what can we do with empires more then having just a considerable increase in largescale faction management?
    Well like I mention before I was thinking about Empire wars... with the ability to conquer factions... But thats not everything what I had in mind. Since there has been allot of talk about attempts to merge roleplay with pvp. I thought we could implement something for roleplayers here aswel. Allow roleplay families to actualy run certaint empires. Have political debates. And cause actual wars that will actualy be fought by the pvp community. Ofcource nothing should be limited to a specific group. So anyone should be able to start an empire if they meet the requirements to start one. It should however neither serve as a bypass for the strict regalia roleplay. You can't start an empire in Teled Methen and mention your the Emperor there in Regalia... A slight seperation here? What do you think?

    I once heared that if people wanted to roleplay they should all go to regalia. And while that is fine on its own. It should not be restricted to. And when I heared that the faction worlds are not lore complaint worlds (whatever happens there does not affect the lore) I do believe we can turn it into a light roleplay enviroment none the less. Giving the world some roleplay value without taking it all away from Regalia and the main lore progression. (giving it value but limited to the worlds themselves for example)
    Now back to Empire wars and its deeper understanding...
    So the idea is once you become an empire faction. You can have subfactions. And if you are a faction you can get to be a subfaction owned by an empire. The idea of empire wars is that empires can actualy contest other empires and independant factions. Allowing empires to capture factions or subfactions by means of pvp with certaint rulesets to keep things fair. Then an empire can expand trough conquest and there is a bigger incentive for factions to pick sides before others pick for them.

    I gues we can still debate as to what the specific rules would be. I think its safe to say that having that ability will definatly ignite some activity on the pvp front. As raiding became a whole lot more interesting.

    Out of a roleplay perspective. A family that rules an empire could use this to expand their power and influence by slowely capturing the world. (how awesome would it be to have a territorial map added to dynmap?)
    And about some aspects that empires should contain in my opinion...
    Empires should not just be an upgrade to a faction. It definatly should be an endgame achievement. And a group effort. And most importantly, not just another feature that can be abused. What it also should not do is completely change the priorities of factions. Just because people can capture someones faction doesn't mean that this faction is doomed. We need mainly positive attributes to stimulate actions. Small profits and benefits that will give players enough drive to make use of the plugins benefits.

    Being part of an empire should give your faction some form of benefit. Be it taxationwise. Be it resource based. Whatever you can think of. I could throw out ideas like giving subfactions specific tasks benefits for example. Like have a mining faction and give that faction a buff in mining yield due to it being part of an empire and having been assigned as a mining faction. Just a thought.

    Have empires gain benefits for obtaining more subfactions. Inspire growth. This too can be a taxation based benefit. Or claimpower wise. granting the empire faction slight boosts to claim power based on the ammount of players in subfactions. Allowing the imperial faction to make a grant capital city for their empire and its subfactions. Just another thought.

    Have there be benefits for being indipendant aswel! Give people the chance to rebel. Although not to the point where if you get captured by an empire you dont like you can simply bypass it and rejoin your former empire. (or regain your indipendance)

    One main rule I always had in mind to prevent certaint abuse by alts is by not allowing an empire faction to be smaller than any of its subfactions. It doesn't matter that all your subfactions combined are bigger then you. It creates an odd atmosphere when a small faction has control over a larger one. Although it can endup that way. It should not be directly achievable.

    Another rule would be the minimum required members before one can become an impire faction or subfaction. I don't think an empire should get any benefit for a one man darkroom faction. (atleast not anything beyond its purpose) Even a subfaction needs to be a considerable ammount of people before they can be seen as a real settlement. Real empires don't fight over hunters tents...
    This will also serve as a way to prevent any means of abuse in obtaining any benefits trough unintended use.

    I hope your all as open minded as I am about this. I may have accedently created more questions then answers. (sorry ;p)
    But in all good faith. This topic is awesome. And I love to debate over suggestions and possibilities of what might or might not be.
    With my post I did not want to point out that this suggestion would fix a whole lot of problems. I did want to point out that it could have a positive influence in that regard.

    To wrap this up...
    We want this. The community wants it. Genereal opinion is positive.
    It will give Massivecraft a/another real big thing to standout over other servers.
    Maybe pvp and rp will be one step closer to oneanother.
    Allot more milestones to achieve in massive!
    A brand new game aspect!

    I may endup thinking about some other fancy feature linked to empires. But for now its 3:04 in the morning... I am a bit tired x3
    Good evening to you all. I am out!

    ps:
    Il post some comments later about that /access and more ranks things

    OOT PS: @Madus
    So how is that /f access suggestion I made a while back doing? (the one about adding ranks to 'things to allow/deny)
     
  20. CnocBride

    CnocBride Former leader of Enigma.

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    Hello,

    This suggestion seems ok but the problem is Cayorion doesn't need to code this into factions. Most big factions create subfactions using alts (which most of the time are bought using regals) and they use these or they provide protection to a smaller weaker faction in return for allegience. They're not officially "subfactions" but we can use the current system of allies and trust to really build our own "empires". My faction personally is its own empire and we have a couple of subfacs most of them are ran by us ourselves but one or two are run by other people. We are also in an alliance with Tyberia so we dont really don't need anything like that.

    On the ranks a deputy leader doesn't sound bad but I dont like Sherriff. Honestly Officer is fine as it is
     
  21. Aespair

    Aespair Am I the only one here?

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    I don't want to sound rude here, but I think you missed the point.
     
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  22. Arvallon

    Arvallon Arvanion Cyladhras of Avallónë

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    About the addition of extra ranks to work with...

    I always supported the idea of additional ranks. The bigger you get as a faction. The more secure and organised you will want it to be. Especialy if your faction has started gaining wealth to some degree. And even if you do not need them right away. They are always helpfull to have at a later stage.

    Keep in mind. The tags that these new ranks will be given is irrelivant. Its what you, Your faction is going to use them for. Thats what matters here. For every faction 'that' can be different. Having the ability to add ranks yourself doesn't sound like a very solid idea. Basically because of how complex it will get about programming this. I see a reason why this may have been wanted. Simply because not everyone needs more ranks. So lets say you can switch between additional ranks and the standard four?

    The total number of extra rank is what is important to speculate about. I can see that having 6 total ranks would be sufficiënt for some. Yet not enough for others. 8? 10? Perhaps put that to a vote and see how it pans out? What may be usefull to is to know what they may be used for. As that will give us better insight into how many additional ranks will be usefull.

    The same goes for the tags of those specific ranks. We need those tags to be general tags. Something that will make it easy to determine at which position you are. Yet people can still give them functions other then that the tag for the rank. Afterall the tag is only something used to identify the rank postion pluginwise. And so its recognised when assigning permissions to it. The actual function will Always be for the faction leaders to decide.

    A usefull rank I Always found was co owner. So you can select an inheritor incase of a situation in which one is needed.
    Recruiter rank that has access to inviting people yet not as much power as an officer is also something I considered usefull.
    Just trowing some ideas out there myself...

    Anyways Thumbs up for that one. I wished I could talk here about /f access too... but its not included into the topic realy so... Il stay on topic here :)
     
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  23. Arvallon

    Arvallon Arvanion Cyladhras of Avallónë

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    @Mecharic

    What do you think about what I suggested on the topic? Since you are the Original poster I though I might just tag you and ask.
    (referring to 4 posts prior to this one)
     
  24. Mecharic

    Mecharic I'm tempermental, deal with it.

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    I think that a solid 8 ranks would be nice. Leader, Regent (Co-leader), General(s), Lieutenant, Officer, Member, Recruit, Probation (unable to leave faction, for punishment) as possible ranks.
     
  25. Aespair

    Aespair Am I the only one here?

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    I don't think this'll happen because then players can forcibly put a damper on other people's enjoyment. It could be terribly abused by having people join your faction and putting them on probation for the rest of their lives because "lol trolled" and it stops them from getting autokicked B).

    These would be nice though. This is probably the feature I want the most in Massive.
     
  26. Mecharic

    Mecharic I'm tempermental, deal with it.

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    It wouldn't stop autokicks. And of course people wouldn't be able to just put someone there - perhaps a reason would be needed. But yeah that's the least likely option.
     
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  27. Omnomivore

    Omnomivore ⛓ Nom Nom ⛓ Premium

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    I would like to encourage players to contribute to this discussion again or perhaps create a new feature and idea thread pertaining to Factions Empires. This suggestion will be noted along with other Factions features ideas.
     
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  28. Zacatero

    Zacatero Regalian High Lord

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    @Mecharic
     
  29. Mecharic

    Mecharic I'm tempermental, deal with it.

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    I'm currently busy, but I'll write up a new one of these on Monday with some undated expectations due to the tax increase (I still hate taxes and think they're the bane of MassiveCraft btw, but if we're stuck with them we should at least get more out of it than basic factions).
     
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  30. FireFan96

    FireFan96 Ever present, Ever seeing Staff Member Lore2

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    I'll give my input on the new thread when Mech writes it. I spent a year on towny servers, so I feel that type of empire stuff could be helpful.
     
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